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Are We Buying Too Many Players ?

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You missed the word shit out of the title there Froggy.

Well maybe the answer clearly is shit for some but maybe also for others that we are just not giving them a chance in this age of instant gratification ? Expecting them to deliver in their 1st season when in reality they will only start performing to the level & with the quality we are seeking after having settled in; with players, club, location and tactics ?

EDIT. Look at some of the fan criticism already of Firmino & Benteke !
 
What's your time frame. Frogfish? We have been buying too many players for years. And the reason is that the ones we bought in the first place aren't good enough. Nor, invariably, are the ones we replace them with.

The turnover of players is an issue but recruitment is a bigger one.
 
What's your time frame. Frogfish? We have been buying too many players for years. And the reason is that the ones we bought in the first place aren't good enough. Nor, invariably, are the ones we replace them with.

The turnover of players is an issue but recruitment is a bigger one.

Have you read the article ? I think the author overstates the importance, or doesn't sufficiently consider other factors, and I don't think that it is THE reason for our poor performances but there is no doubt IMHO that it could indeed be a factor. I suppose the proof of the pudding would be if any of the players moved on went on to re-establish or establish themselves at an acceptable level. Robbie Keane is a good example for me.
 
That's a very interesting article and would suggest that the clubs Etch a Sketch policy of shaking things up when they don't immediately work isn't helping us. One of the things the article fails to mentions however is the influence that managers have had over recruitment policy. Whilst not at all being a fan of Brendan Rodgers it does appear strange that together with the transfer committee we buy players (some of whom the manager might not really want) and then leave the manager to pick who plays and who doesn't. It stands to reason that the manager is going to favour players that he proposed over ones that the committee suggested and that would also contribute to why players were jettisoned without seemingly being given a chance to have an impact.
As some have suggested (gkmacca being one) the clubs present structure is the root of our failings. Not having a scouting , coaching and recruitment setup that are working as one rather than seemingly working against each other at times is hampering us tremendously. Added to that is the view that the club and team have no observable style of play , tactical system ,formation or mental approach.
This is apparent when a first choice player is injured or suspended ,that another player doesn't simply slot into the position and the team functions much the same. It's far more likely that the whole formation or approach to the game will change when the new player comes in and this can't help the players when everything is constantly changing and they can't get used to playing a certain way.
 
Present as in right now or present as in the last 25 years? Because our recruitment has been shite for that long.
No it hasn't.
Reina
Alonso
Torres
Suarez
Sterling
Hamann
Anelka
Etc etc.

We've made some brilliant signings and probably as many good ones as any team value wise but we have a massive tendency to spunk away the profit we make on these signings which is the main problem.
 
Well yeah that's kinda my point.
We never really replace the good ones.
 
No it hasn't.
Reina
Alonso
Torres
Suarez
Sterling
Hamann
Anelka
Etc etc.

We've made some brilliant signings and probably as many good ones as any team value wise but we have a massive tendency to spunk away the profit we make on these signings which is the main problem.

Of course we have signed some very good players. But the hit rate for - even adequate - players in general is so, so dire. And has been for years. We buy a player, then sell him/toss him on the loan heap - only to then replace him with pretty much the same player. It's absurd. If I didn't think it was rigged, I'd think it was rigged.
 
Present as in right now or present as in the last 25 years? Because our recruitment has been shite for that long.
The clubs recruitment policy is all over the place. We don't seem to identify what type of players we need to fit our system or style of play as it's unclear what system or style of play we have. Rodgers and the transfer committee buy players because they think they are good players now (Benteke ,Clyne,Firmino) , could be good in the future with (Markovic ,Ilori,Origi,Gomez) or are looked at as bargains (Milner,Ings) but with a lot of these players there doesn't seem to be a plan for where we are going to play them or how to get the best out of them. This might explain why we play players in position where they are wholly unsuited and even if they do well initially over the course of time their inexperience in those positions is eventually exploited by the opposition.
A couple of examples from last season are Can and Markovic. Can did well at first playing as the right handed sided centre half (when 3 at the back) and later as a right back but by the end of the season he was horribly exposed game after game. Simarlarly with Markovic (and Ibe for that matter) when played at wingback he played very well at Sunderland and was then played in that position far more than he was in his natural position of attacking midfielder or winger and stuggled to the extent that he was substituted at half time more than once.
Sterling also got fed up with playing wing back and was part of the reason he wanted to leave (mostly money though).
We bought Firmino this season when we already had Lallana and Coutinho who all want or need to play in the number 10 position.
Most supporters felt this summer our new recruits needed to be a Mobile and skillful striker,Left back,Right Back and defensive Midfielder. What we got was Benteke who is a good player but neither mobile or skillful. Clyne as a new right back which has worked very well. The left back position was neglected to the extent that we are now playing an inexperienced centre half at left back. He's done pretty well so far but there's no way that he was bought with a mind to playing him at left back and it remains to be seen how long he stays there.
The defensive midfield position clearly confuses Rodgers as he's looked to get rid of Lucas for the past two transfer windows before realising that he has no one else to play there and restoring him to the team. But he then compounds this confusion by playing him in a game where he shouldn't need him (lfc 0 west ham 3) and then wondering why the midfield was slow and ponderous. We needed to get another holding player in the summer but instead got James Milner. He is a good player but decent at most things rather than excellent at any and also quite similar in style to Henderson.
 
You're right. But, as I said, it's been this way for years. It's not a problem unique to Rodgers.

I always maintain that it's not an exact science - look at City and Utd throwing their millions about for not much gain - but we've been poor recruiters for years and years. It irritates me.
 
Buying to many players is what happens when you're not buying the right players, and as Cloggy says shite ones
 
When you look at the most succesful managers over the past twenty years you can describe how their teams played for the most part. Ferguson,Mourinho,Wenger,Guardiola,Klopp,Ancelloti and Benitez to name just a few ,all have a style of play and a method of approaching games which we are familiar with. Rogers style of play or tactical approach seems to be determined by the players he has at his disposal rather than his own ethos and I think that's part of his problem. He talked about death by football when he first arrived at Liverpool but apart from the first couple of months he quickly abandoned that and switched to a counter attacking style until we lost Suarez. Since then it can vary from game to game or even within games (semi final versus Villa).
The clubs recruitment policy seems to mirror this as they have no clear idea of what type of player the are looking for and no idea where these players will fit in with how the team play. It's an expensive mess.
 
The trend is obvious: in the nine seasons of results (from 05/06), Liverpool have finished in the top three on four occasions. On each occasion, there has been a total turnover of 12 players or under. The two 2nd place finishes came with the lowest and third lowest turnovers. By contrast, the five seasons with our worst point totals have all had incredibly high turnovers of between 14-16 senior players each year. Two of the three largest turnovers have been this season and last, matching up with poor performances.

Clearly one reason behind this correlation is that the players being signed are not of sufficient quality. That is why they failed to make a positive impact on our league performance when they arrived, and it is also why they have to be offloaded and then replaced so soon after coming.

However, I also want to suggest that the high player turnover is not just a sign of bad recruitment, but is also a negative agent itself in performance level. Looking through recent squads, the best form of almost every player – regardless of the magnitude of their success – did not arrive in their first year. The lack of faith in the current squad, and the club’s naïve belief that it can find better players elsewhere, means that new personnel have not been given sufficient chance after poor starts

It's clearly all about the players we lose and how we replace them.

Finish 2nd - Lose Alonso, Arbeloa, Hyypia
-- takes 5ish years to rebuild
Finish 2nd - Lose Suarez and Sterling season after
-- takes ?? years to rebuild

Turnover is a consequence of fucking the recruitment up, bad coaching and impatience. Seems like we're going to go through cycles unless we strike gold and start winning things.
 
Yes, in general I agree. But will add that Benitez wasn't a great recruiter either. Better than Rodgers but still bought a whole heap of dross.

As did Kenny second time round, as did Ged, as did as did as did...
 
Benitez did buy some poor players as every manager does if he stays for more than a couple of years or in Roy Hodgson's case six months but he also bought
Alonso
Torres
Mascherano
Kuyt
Garcia
Reina
Agger
all of which would get into our present team
and
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Maxi
Crouch
Bellamy
Aurelio
who would be better than the squad players we currently have available.
 
I'm not really sure of your point there, davud. But I have no inclination to get into an argument about Benitez. Suffice to say he is one in a succession of Liverpool managers that has squandered a lot of money on dross.

Yes he, like managers before and after him, bought some excellent players as well.

Generally though our recruitment has been too poor for too long.
 
I'm not sure what the article tells us other than we waste loads of money.

Having to buy lots of players is bad because it indicates your squad is weak. But buying lots of players probably isn't the reason we perform poorly.

If that was true, then surely the opposite would have to be true - that if we bought nobody we'd get better.

What I do think is correct though is that the way to build a squad is in the manner Wenger does, he spends years building his squad with transfers that aren't going to pay off immediately, then starts adding real quality when those players are blossoming.

There's also a lot to be said about the way Swansea and Southampton go about their business.
 
IMO it's always likely to be more of a problem when a manager has nearly total control than with a DOF/Coach structure. That's why we have had a large amount of bad signings under every regime going right back to Souness.

The current setup is even worse than having just a manager, though, because we've been signing quite a lot of players basically against Rodgers's wishes, and also because Rodgers is uniquely bad at spotting signings. So either way it tends to yield bad results.
 
The three examples you trotted out, Ross, seem to have a vision of how to run their clubs. Ours, on the other hand, seems hostage to whichever manager is in place. What hasn't changed, though, regardless of the incumbent manager, is a shocking inability to recognise that coming second is a failure; failure calls for identifying why and for genuine upgrades. Houlier, Benitez and Rodgers have all come second once and have not only miserably failed to make the next step up but actually ended up regressed alarmingly
 
IMO it's always likely to be more of a problem when a manager has nearly total control than with a DOF/Coach structure. That's why we have had a large amount of bad signings under every regime going right back to Souness.

The current setup is even worse than having just a manager, though, because we've been signing quite a lot of players basically against Rodgers's wishes, and also because Rodgers is uniquely bad at spotting signings. So either way it tends to yield bad results.


Uh oh...
 
But yeah we're buying too much shit.

We sign all these players from middle/lower table teams and wonder why we ourselves become a midtable team.
 
But yeah we're buying too much shit.

We sign all these players from middle/lower table teams and wonder why we ourselves become a midtable team.

that in itself isn't the issue. Very few top players start their careers at Bayern or Real or Barca etc.
 
that in itself isn't the issue. Very few top players start their careers at Bayern or Real or Barca etc.


They sign top players from top clubs the majority of the time. Players from Dortmund, Sevilla, Juventus etc.

The majority of our signings come from Sunderland and Southampton.
 
We sign so many players who have been in our league for years at lower clubs that, while doing well to an extent, don't really stand out. When the top teams sign players from lesser clubs, they sign the stars. We don't.
 
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