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1/4 of the way through - or thereabouts

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For me, anyhow, this is when the patience ended. Clearly there's problems, but negative momentum like positive momentum makes things more magnified than they are.


I'm off the patience train, but I still think it can be turned around. Klopp dispensing with Lovren is a good sign. Now, I think if he's playing through pain medication, I don't fault Lovren, and Klopp ain't no Benitez when it comes to defense. BUT, klopp's rep is now on the line. And he has to act. And he did sign Klavan and Matip.

But I think we will bounce back: especially with Mane and Lallana to come back. Just keep Karius out of nets. We can't afford things to get worse.
 
I'm clinging to (a probably) naive hope that yesterday was the day Klopp realised he'd overestimated this defence.

As much of a trainwreck as Lovren was, did anyone else still get a huge shock when they saw he was being hooked after 30 mins? I couldn't believe Klopp was doing that. Not that it wasn't the absolutely correct thing to do, more that Klopp was actually fucking doing it. This is the guy that waits 80 mins to make any fucking substitution at all, sticks with the same front 3 every single week, and has backed Lovren - publicly - to the hilt.

I would never have thought he'd have dragged him. Ever. And then to not even acknowledge him as he came off? Looked to me like he couldn't even bring himself to look at him.

Maybe I'm being hopelessly optimistic, but I'm hoping that's the moment he realised.

I'd go with Gomez. He simply cannot be any worse. He's young, got talent, is going to make mistakes, etc.

Lovren's days are done. He's getting the Sturridge treatment from here forward methinks.

Agree. Klopp's post-match comments also point in this direction IMO.
 
Sorry but this is just pure bollocks. Newcastle ?! As if. Probably you've not been watching them !

Did you see us vs. United or against City before being reduced to 10 men ? Maybe against Arsenal ? Or any of our Euro games where we have only been let down by a poor conversion rate ? In fact in almost every PL match we've failed to win so far it's generally been the same story. poor conversion and individual errors at the back (or bad luck, offsides etc. but that happens).

The issue has been wastefulness at one end and a litany of individual errors at the other. However that said are we a million miles away from City ? Yes we are. But for the rest we are close, don't let one game, where one player losing his head spread nervousness throughout the team causing a meltdown, become a barometer of where we are at.

Of course not a single team has fantastic players in every position (though City are coming close), with many average players playing in title winning teams. Leicester ran away with the league with just a handful of high quality players and the rest were simply strong average players.

The core of our squad is good to excellent : Mane, Salah, Coutinho, Lallana, Clyne, Firmino and I'd go as far as to include Matip, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Gomez, Moreno (on this season's form), Ox and AA in that core list for next season. Our issue is with maybe 4 key positions which, with the right personnel, would change everything (imagine the team with Keita, VVD, and say Aurier, Aubameyang and Pickering since they were all available, we are not even talking world beaters). There would be screening for a strong back four. A confident and strong keeper, even if not the best in the world, a good (which could be superb on it's day) midfield and a mouth watering forward line with some decent cover on the bench. It would have given us something like :

.............................. Pickering

Clyne .........Matip ............... VVD ............ Aurier

................... Henderson ........ Keita

............................... Coutinho

Mane ................ Aubameyang ............. Salah

Karius, AA, Moreno, Gomez, Wijnaldum, Milner, Ox, Firmino, Sturridge, Solanke

So maybe we are 4 players short (highlighted, with Keita sorted). The frustration is will Klopp sort it with reliable transfers for those positions in bold in January / next Summer ? I've not yet lost faith, as many seem to have, given this season's very mixed results / performances.

Yeah I know, it's always next season. But we really aren't a million miles away and yes. we may lose Coutinho, or we may not.

Surely you can't mean Ron Pickering?
 
If he's going to change the formation then surely playing two holding players would offer more protection to the back four. Not that we have any defensive midfielders left after selling Lucas and Stewart but 2 out of Henderson, Wijnaldum, Milner or Can would do for now.
This team might offer a better defensive shape but still offer some threat going forward

Ward
Arnold - Matip - Gomez - Moreno
Henderson - Can
Salah Coutinho Chamberlain
Firmino

There are alternatives to nearly all the places in that system and only Salah and Coutinho are untouchable in the team for me at the moment, all the rest of them haven't justified their place enough this season.

Hate to break it to you, but we've been playing two holding midfielders (or two midfielders, in a deep position) and they've not done a shining job of protecting the defence.
 
Hate to break it to you, but we've been playing two holding midfielders (or two midfielders, in a deep position) and they've not done a shining job of protecting the defence.

We haven't really though. They're expected to do anything that might crop up, so our emphasis on attack has often left our defence short of protection.

A German friend of mine made an interesting point the other day. He said (how accurately I couldn't say, but anyway) that Klopp's preference for all-rounders in midfield rather than dedicated DMs is a specifically German trait, shared not only by Bundesliga clubs but also by the national team. My hope now is that he'll see we don't have the players in midfield to do it that way. Keita will help, but by himself he won't be enough.
 
We haven't really though. They're expected to do anything that might crop up, so our emphasis on attack has often left our defence short of protection.

A German friend of mine made an interesting point the other day. He said (how accurately I couldn't say, but anyway) that Klopp's preference for all-rounders in midfield rather than dedicated DMs is a specifically German trait, shared not only by Bundesliga clubs but also by the national team. My hope now is that he'll see we don't have the players in midfield to do it that way. Keita will help, but by himself he won't be enough.

We only really have 2/3 of a forward line and maybe one or two attacking central midfielders to play the way Klopp wants to play, that's what I don't get. We leave gaps in midfield and defence and as a result need excellent individuals to play in those positions. Instead we have defenders and midfielders who can't dominate space and regularly lose 1 on battles. Considering so much of the team - GK, CBs, possibly full backs, definitely most of our central midfielders as well as arguably our central striker options - can't function well in a set-up Klopp uses, how come he hasn't gone for something more pragmatic until he can bring in who he wants?

In a way I think that's the worst thing about this summer's transfer business - not who we did or didn't sign but any real moves by the manager to mitigate things as a result.
 
We've shipped 16 goals and scored 14. And each time somebody runs at our midfield and defence, they will likely score.
 
I hate the idea of frequently changing managers - its small time. Klopp fits what our club from a cultural level - and I agree that I think this will have been the point where he thinks "something needs to change"

I wonder if he'll do the Conte style of resolution from last season when he saw them struggling at the back and moved to a back three.

We would struggle to fill a back 3 without having to use Lovren but I wouldn't be against moving Emre back there and having Matip, Gomez, Can as a back three. Potentially..

Hmmmm

Something has to give though - and I think even if only temporarily, we need to bolster the defence.

As you say, something has to give. I think you can chuck whomever you like into that back five, but realistically; only a change in system will get us through to January without further major embarrassment.

Unfortunately, none of our midfielders look like they have the discipline to sit bar maybe Milner.
 
We haven't really though. They're expected to do anything that might crop up, so our emphasis on attack has often left our defence short of protection.

A German friend of mine made an interesting point the other day. He said (how accurately I couldn't say, but anyway) that Klopp's preference for all-rounders in midfield rather than dedicated DMs is a specifically German trait, shared not only by Bundesliga clubs but also by the national team. My hope now is that he'll see we don't have the players in midfield to do it that way. Keita will help, but by himself he won't be enough.

Keita is another all-rounder, albeit one who does the job to a higher standard than what we currently have.
 
So how about we stick Milner in as a holding Mid.

Downside v upside? Not mobile enough going forward?
 
So how about we stick Milner in as a holding Mid.

Downside v upside? Not mobile enough going forward?
He's paceless, as evidenced by their second goal yesterday.

I'd rather play Alexander-Arnold there to be honest.
 
Keita is another all-rounder, albeit one who does the job to a higher standard than what we currently have.

That's quite true, but the defensive part of his skill set is way in advance of that of any of our current MFs. Even so, we'll need more stiffening in midfield IMO, even with him in the side.
 
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He's paceless, as evidenced by their second goal yesterday.

I'd rather play Alexander-Arnold there to be honest.

I'm not sure sitting deep is Milner's best position, but for a deeper MF the lack of pace might not be quite so much of a problem and I'd still be inclined to try him there in preference to TAA, who to me needs to play wide (at least at this stage) if he's going to play MF at all.
 
Hate to break it to you, but we've been playing two holding midfielders (or two midfielders, in a deep position) and they've not done a shining job of protecting the defence.
Here's Lucas explaining it.

 
Hate to break it to you, but we've been playing two holding midfielders (or two midfielders, in a deep position) and they've not done a shining job of protecting the defence.
I disagree. We play with three in midfield with the deepest one usually being the de facto playmaker and not a defensive midfielder at all. The other two don't have pre defined roles really and are free to wander where they want on their own side of the pitch within reason.

Defensive midfielders are there to see the danger and snuff it out before it gets near to the defence, ideally by facing forwards and seeing where the runners are coming from and where the likely pass will be. At the moment our midfielders are reacting to runners and dangerous balls into space instead of anticipating them and because most of our midfielders are quite slow on the turn we are getting caught out. That's why nearly all teams now are defending deep against us and allowing us the possession up until the half way line, all they have to do is wait for us to give the ball away and we are all at sea.

The way we combated not having defensive midfielders last season (or at least up until Christmas) was the high press from the 3 forwards , 3 midfielders and the full backs which tried to stifle the opposition the their own half and recover the ball in dangerous positions. We have only done this against Arsenal this season and it worked very well.
If Lallanas absence has made Klopp abandon the high press then it shows that his system is too brittle if it can't accommodate one player being missing and we're not doing it because of concerns over burnout later in the season then that shows that the squad isn't deep enough to cope with it.
 
rafael-bentiez-manager-of-newcastle-united-embraces-philippe-coutinho-picture-id856322626


Just saying...
 
Disappointing start to the season. When we are good, we are great but when we are poor which is more often than not against top 4 rivals, its horrible. Klopp needs to slap himself out of this slumber. We are poor to say the least. Need huge improvements and long unbeaten run to get us where we need to be.
 
As you say, something has to give. I think you can chuck whomever you like into that back five, but realistically; only a change in system will get us through to January without further major embarrassment.

Unfortunately, none of our midfielders look like they have the discipline to sit bar maybe Milner.

I don't trust any of our midfielders to hold properly. We need to get back to pressing well as a team.
 
The spine of the team ( GK, CB, CM CF) is all wrong, none of the returning players will improve that although it's possible they may give us more balance.
This.

I really like Klopp, but he seems to be getting everything arse about face. You'd think he'd want to fix the defence first, but he concentrates on the attack. You'd think he'd want to fix the spine first, but he gets after the ancillaries and the "strength in depth" (I'm being generous here, Ox, you know who you are).

We've gone from Reina, Carra, Gerrard and Torres to Ming, Matip, Henderson and Firmino - you can certainly argue that 3 of those (if not 4) require biblical investment to fix them...
 
I don't trust any of our midfielders to hold properly. We need to get back to pressing well as a team.

We do, but it's hard to expect that when it's been largely absent this season. It's starting to look like pressing less is a conscious choice.

Besides, even when we do press well we are still leaky and susceptible to counter attacks, the defence needs more protection.
 
I'm convinced that back 3/ back 5 is where we need to go, at least in the short term.

No idea what to do re: GKs. I think Ming has had it now. But does that mean we but #LK1 into PL starting slot, or does Danny Ward get a go? Either way - surely the writing on the wall now can't be any clearer re: both Ming & Lovren. Trash.
 
Froggy, half that team doesn’t even play for us. And Cuntino is off in the summer.
Haha. It was just an indication of what the team could have been like and maybe (add whatever players you feel maybe available) in January or next Summer. Basically to counter the assertion that we are a million miles away. We’re not.
 
Quite. Especially galling, given the completely unnecessary AOC signing. We're only four players away? Who's fault is that?
No dispute with where the blame lies. It’s the ‘this team is shite and we need to start building from the ground up’ mentality, so typical of some here, that irks when you look at some of the talent in the team.
 
I hate the idea of frequently changing managers - its small time. Klopp fits what our club from a cultural level - and I agree that I think this will have been the point where he thinks "something needs to change"

I wonder if he'll do the Conte style of resolution from last season when he saw them struggling at the back and moved to a back three.

We would struggle to fill a back 3 without having to use Lovren but I wouldn't be against moving Emre back there and having Matip, Gomez, Can as a back three. Potentially..

Hmmmm

Something has to give though - and I think even if only temporarily, we need to bolster the defence.
Whilst we don’t have an Azpilicueta it doesn’t have to be three big guys. AA-Matip-Gomez or Gomez-Matip-Robertson perhaps. Just throwing it out there.
 
When your childlike antics have played themselves out just face up to it. You are one boring ultra-negative cunt. And then fuck off.
 
He's paceless, as evidenced by their second goal yesterday.

I'd rather play Alexander-Arnold there to be honest.
Actually we could play Gomez there, if he wasn’t now needed at CB. He has the pace, the defensive mindset & passing skills. That would mean staying with 2 CBs but Klopp will likely do that anyway. A risk but what isn’t.
 
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