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Dealing with 10 men defences

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moron

i am legend
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Sorry - but this is something that we need to discuss in detail. It's been a problem for us last season and I have no doubt it will be a problem for us under Klopp on a constant basis on the understanding that he faced the same problems in Germany towards the end of his tenure at Dortmund. It was in many ways the same underlying issue that caused us to lose the title under Rodgers in that season as we faced Chelsea at home.

So my friends and enemies and pussies - how does the team deal with this ? -

  1. from my memory I remember many teams playing like this against United in their glory days - but the one answer Alex Fergofuck had to it was to move up the pitch at fast speed and put in early crosses. Today it seems like the issue was we put in the crosses but at a pace which meant the opposition would be prepared for those crosses.
  2. The other method is to go through the middle - but you need the players with the trickery to do that with pace and this method often fails - step forward Mr. Wenger.
  3. Finally the other method is to force the opposition to come out - or force them to make errors by luring them out of their positions.
In defense of our manager - all I can say regarding the post match press conference - is that he seems to identify the root cause which is our decision making - you know the pot shots from outside, and losing the ball in certain situations. I don't have an issue with the crosses but he also identified the positioning of our players was all wrong when the crosses were delivered.

He clearly needs to work on the speed of movement of our team - we were pedestrian like today despite all that passing bollox.

Thank you everyone.
 
We need to be quicker, but also SOMEONE needs to run at the defenders

We fucking pass it around D the edge of the box to ridiculous levels
 
We need to be quicker, but also SOMEONE needs to run at the defenders

We fucking pass it around D the edge of the box to ridiculous levels

Fabio very correct on that first point regarding 'SOMEONE needs to run at the defenders' - in last weeks game I think it was our second/third Coutinho goal that came from Clyne's cross which he delivered after taking on their left-back. Today he seemed not to want to do that and was always passing inside - it really irritated the fuck out of me because we know he deliver the dangerous cross as opposed to the timid ones we were doing today.
 
I've been banging on about a lack of pace for years and years now but that wasn't our main issue today.

The issue was that the team looked like they figured they could turn up, saunter about a bit, work through a few tippy tappy moves and everything would be good. Well, they can't and the sooner they get that through their stupid thick heads the better.

They need to turn up switched on and move the ball quickly. It was all so slow and lackadaisical today. Do they not train together during the week? Do they not have any motivation to play well? I just don't get it.

Why do they consistently turn up to games looking like they've no idea what to do.
 
I've been banging on about a lack of pace for years and years now but that wasn't our main issue today.

The issue was that the team looked like they figured they turn up, saunter about a bit, work through a few tippy tappy moves and everything would be good. Well, they can't and the sooner they get that through their stupid thick heads the better.

They need to turn up switched on and move the ball quickly. It was all so slow and lackadaisical today. Do they not train together during the week? Do they not have any motivation to play well? I just don't get it.

Why do they consistently turn up to games looking like they've no idea what to do.

Keniget - they have an idea what to do - it's that that they are 'bad' ideas.
 
Key is being able to beat a man. And good movement, especially with midfielders getting ahead of the forwards running from deep.

We always just seem to pass it sideways until someone gets a yard and then they either scuff it or twat it over.
 
Learn to beat a man
Move the ball more quickly and intelligently until someone makes a smart run
If all else fails, stop taking pointless pot shots and bang in good crosses instead. Not crosses, good crosses. Look at Cazorla's ball last week. Was always gonna be a goal thanks to the delivery.
 
We need to be quicker, but also SOMEONE needs to run at the defenders

We fucking pass it around D the edge of the box to ridiculous levels

Hendo, Lallana and Milner can all fuck off in terms of moving quicker. Hendo, you know the balls just going to be lost or goes back to Ming. Lallana, you know the ground is going to take a beating from his 1 min turning twisting exercise. Milner, you know he's going to turn back to his right side and going backwards after pretending for eternity it's not.
 
First of all, let's not pretend that it's not a problem for all top clubs. When you play against a team set up like Burnley was, then you're not playing a game of football, it's something else. It's one team trying to prevent a football game from breaking out, against another team trying to get it to start. It's a Beckett-like search for lost meaning.

But what we are really bad at is learning lessons. This team has been through this several times before. It's experienced the same frustrations, the same setbacks, and made the same mistakes. And they haven't learnt a thing. That's what is so maddening.

Slow movement and slow passing: if anything it gets worse. Yesterday, at one point, Firmino was on the edge of the box, a teammate looked towards him, a Burnley defender stepped in front of him, and the player then went ahead and passed vaguely towards the Burnley player. Idiotic. They don't seem to realise that opponents like this will keep their shape, let us have several passes together outside the box but will then intercept the one that is a real threat. Our players seem to think they're doing well but just get bad luck at the last pass. No, you fools, you're being controlled.

Endless high crosses into the area. We don't have Andy Carroll any more, so quite who you think you're going to find up there in the middle is a mystery.

Endless low crosses driven into a sea of legs. Are you deluded enough to think that's a precision pass, or are you openly just hitting and hoping?

A complete lack of variation and surprise. At least mix it up a bit. Don't keep looking to the left wing for Milner, Coutinho to cut in and try another wild blast over the bar, another Clyne run down the right into nowhere. At least try to appear mildly intelligent.

You'd expect players to learn from such matches. To sit down, study the recordings, realise the stupidity of much of their play, and go into the next game with an automatic sense of what has to be done this time around.

But they don't, or don't seem to. No doubt they're told about it and coached about it, but in the game - same old, same old.

We need more players who can actually think. And I guess the coaches need to abandon the assumption that they're dealing with adults and drum some basic common sense into these halfwits.
 
First of all, let's not pretend that it's not a problem for all top clubs. When you play against a team set up like Burnley was, then you're not playing a game of football, it's something else. It's one team trying to prevent a football game from breaking out, against another team trying to get it to start. It's a Beckett-like search for lost meaning.

But what we are really bad at is learning lessons. This team has been through this several times before. It's experienced the same frustrations, the same setbacks, and made the same mistakes. And they haven't learnt a thing. That's what is so maddening.

Slow movement and slow passing: if anything it gets worse. Yesterday, at one point, Firmino was on the edge of the box, a teammate looked towards him, a Burnley defender stepped in front of him, and the player then went ahead and passed vaguely towards the Burnley player. Idiotic. They don't seem to realise that opponents like this will keep their shape, let us have several passes together outside the box but will then intercept the one that is a real threat. Our players seem to think they're doing well but just get bad luck at the last pass. No, you fools, you're being controlled.

Endless high crosses into the area. We don't have Andy Carroll any more, so quite who you think you're going to find up there in the middle is a mystery.

Endless low crosses driven into a sea of legs. Are you deluded enough to think that's a precision pass, or are you openly just hitting and hoping?

A complete lack of variation and surprise. At least mix it up a bit. Don't keep looking to the left wing for Milner, Coutinho to cut in and try another wild blast over the bar, another Clyne run down the right into nowhere. At least try to appear mildly intelligent.

You'd expect players to learn from such matches. To sit down, study the recordings, realise the stupidity of much of their play, and go into the next game with an automatic sense of what has to be done this time around.

But they don't, or don't seem to. No doubt they're told about it and coached about it, but in the game - same old, same old.

We need more players who can actually think. And I guess the coaches need to abandon the assumption that they're dealing with adults and drum some basic common sense into these halfwits.

GK - totally get what you have said and agree with nearly all. The only thing I have difficulty in believing is that the coaches are actually trying to address the problem - I just find it hard to believe that after the number of times they have faced these situations and the setup of the opposition - that they cannot learn how to deal with it. Surely they can't be that stupid or mindless - or am I giving them too much credit ? - just don't get it - it's like fucking groundhog day every time it happens, I mean you could put on a generic team kit for the opposition that played like the way Burnley did - and we would see our team do exactly the same thing over and over again in the matches we had last year.
 
GK - totally get what you have said and agree with nearly all. The only thing I have difficulty in believing is that the coaches are actually trying to address the problem - I just find it hard to believe that after the number of times they have faced these situations and the setup of the opposition - that they cannot learn how to deal with it. Surely they can't be that stupid or mindless - or am I giving them too much credit ? - just don't get it - it's like fucking groundhog day every time it happens, I mean you could put on a generic team kit for the opposition that played like the way Burnley did - and we would see our team do exactly the same thing over and over again in the matches we had last year.

Yes. Well, it's a perfectly understandable reaction that you have. These are good, successful, smart coaches, and yet, in this situation, they don't seem to have changed anything. But then there is more widespread evidence of players seeming to lose their discipline and intelligence in similar games. It's exasperating.

I know it's an easier game to play from the comfort of your seat in the stands or at home, but when a move keeps failing, utterly, to work, you don't just keep trying it. These players do. Maybe there is more to coach them. One thing is: to beat these teams you need to see the game from their point of view. You need to be able to think like those two rows of four. think. These games are in part psychological exercises. You need to reverse the view and see things through their eyes. Only then will you know where they don't want to go, but feel obliged to go, in order for you to push them out of position. You need to know those areas to play the ball where they really don't want it played. At the moment these defenders are drilled to draw you into moving the ball exactly where they want you to put it, and we get suckered into that time after time. So maybe there's not enough work on understanding the actual mechanics of this type of defending.
 
Yes. Well, it's a perfectly understandable reaction that you have. These are good, successful, smart coaches, and yet, in this situation, they don't seem to have changed anything. But then there is more widespread evidence of players seeming to lose their discipline and intelligence in similar games. It's exasperating.

I know it's an easier game to play from the comfort of your seat in the stands or at home, but when a move keeps failing, utterly, to work, you don't just keep trying it. These players do. Maybe there is more to coach them. One thing is: to beat these teams you need to see the game from their point of view. You need to be able to think like those two rows of four. think. These games are in part psychological exercises. You need to reverse the view and see things through their eyes. Only then will you know where they don't want to go, but feel obliged to go, in order for you to push them out of position. You need to know those areas to play the ball where they really don't want it played. At the moment these defenders are drilled to draw you into moving the ball exactly where they want you to put it, and we get suckered into that time after time. So maybe there's not enough work on understanding the actual mechanics of this type of defending.

I saw the Brazil vs Germany game in the Olympics last night - and there were clear demonstrations of the type of play you are describing by both teams - it was a really high intensity game and some of Brazil's play was like that of old times where they were zipping the ball in tight spaces and the wingers would run into the spaces. I could not help but think about Liverpool during the game - wishing and willing some of our boys to have watched that game, just so that they could fucking learn from the movement on show by both teams. Mind you the finishing was not that great but the movement / counter-attacking and pressing was good to see.

I would be very surprised at Klopp though if he was not saying the things you mention to the players. If our boys cannot learn to do what is needed then I think we should stop pressing and invite the opposition onto us for counter-attacking against lesser numbers - mainly because it is better than losing these games. I have seen Man City deal with Burnley type setups by taking on the opposition players - but also I know Jose in past games has struggled against such opposition, Arsenal still struggle like we do at times but like you say they know how to put in a decent cross.
 
I think a loss is good if you learn from it and improve.
We're fannying about with words but a loss is never good...it's a bad thing made better if we learn from it and improve and that's what we're not doing. The loss at the weekend, like so many in recent years, is just a miserable reminder of the brainless cycle of mediocrity that successive owners, managers and players seem powerless to break.
 
We're fannying about with words but a loss is never good...it's a bad thing made better if we learn from it and improve and that's what we're not doing. The loss at the weekend, like so many in recent years, is just a miserable reminder of the brainless cycle of mediocrity that successive owners, managers and players seem powerless to break.

I think this is down purely to the Manager and his tactics in dealing with this situation. With the best will in the world - it don't matter who the owners are - but I think our players should be good enough (if instructed properly) to deal with these situations. We all love Klopp and the emotions he brings to the games - but he is the one that has got to get this right so it don't happen again and again.
 
I think at times when were playing against a packed defence too much depends on the full backs putting crosses in. The attacking midfielders need to help them out more than they do at the moment by pulling wide occasionaly to double up on their full back which would probably draw another defender out of the middle to free up some space there which could be exploited.
But as macca says you need to vary the play rather than continually trying the same thing which isn't working. Taking people on a bit more would also help as that's how you get more free kicks around the box which as last week showed can change a game.
 
We need strikers and especially midfielder to make runs towards the goal instead of playing to the left side and get the cross blocked.
Henderson is quite good making those runs but not as dm. Against Burnley we tried the left hand side over and over again with the same result.
 
Width, crosses, two big mofo strikers in the box to tie up the central defence, lots of runs from deep into the box to take the knock downs/flicks.
 
We should of bought Ibrahimovic..
Hey RN, I know that it's part of your persona now to get things wrong all the time. So on one hand I can see why you continue to use "of" instead of "have" - but on the other hand you persistently look like a total mong.

Your problem seems to stem from the fact that, in spoken English, the term "should've" (short for should have) sounds like the word pairing "should of". Why can you not logically process this after all these years?

Stop being a spastic. It's like trying to train a chimp.
 
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There's the need for pacy, direct and 1:1 skilful players but there's also the need in our current squad for a Gary Mac type against defensive teams. Someone who can keep an experienced wise head with natural playmaking capabilities sitting in midfield. An Alonso type if you will.

Schweinsteiger's being frozen out by Maureen. He's a bona fide winner, a quality passer and might just have the desire still to prove himself in England and get one over the special cunt.
 
There's the need for pacy, direct and 1:1 skilful players but there's also the need in our current squad for a Gary Mac type against defensive teams. Someone who can keep an experienced wise head with natural playmaking capabilities sitting in midfield. An Alonso type if you will.

Schweinsteiger's being frozen out by Maureen. He's a bona fide winner, a quality passer and might just have the desire still to prove himself in England and get one over the special cunt.

I thought about him aswell but that injury record and wages. Even for 2 mill £ you could be stuck with a player that cost you a shitload and isnt offering you much at all. Didnt he also say something about Utd being his only club in England?
 
I thought he'd be just what they needed, but it soon became clear that he had nothing left. Great player in this time, but that time is long past IMHO.
 
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