• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Henderson - What's going on?

Forums New posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Modo

Modo

A contentious scando
Member
I'm going to try to go about this like an adult, so bear with me.

I missed the first half and he was subbed in the middle of the second. So I didn't get to see much of his game yesterday.

Read about him at RAWK and the general opinion is that he doesn't look fit.
I re-watched the Watford game, well large bits of it and my honest opinion is that something seems to be off.
I don't think he's completely fit, not in a conditioning sense but more injury related. I just don't see the same type of running.
His reading of the game has never really impressed me but his agility, pace and hard work more often than not covered for it.
This time around he just looks a lot slower, like something is bothering him. Before he got subbed yesterday I noticed that he in several situations was late in terms of covering and running back to defend, which left us a bit exposed in midfield.
I've rarely seen Klopp sub Henderson mid game and Klopp did say something afterwards about him having a tough pre season. Rested or something wrong, your take?
 
I didn't think he looked as busy as he used to.

The injury and conditioning are one and the same thing. Its a foot injury where the pain comes from inflammation of the fascia caused by running. The solution is, quite simply, to do no running.

As a game wears on the pain from that injury worsens significantly. Subconciously Henderson knows this during a game and is naturally going to tailor his workrate to ward off the pain for as long as possible.

Henderson has to tread a really difficult line in training - he has to be fully fit whilst limiting his running to give himself a chance at playing. Its a pain management situation.

None of this should be surprising.
 
As Ross says, it's not surprising. I'm pretty sure it's one of the main factors in us targeting Keita too.

His work-rate was key to at least two-thirds of his effectiveness, once that is compromised it affects the team in a very negative fashion.

I've never been a particular Henderson fan, because I've never known where I'd play him, he just doesn't fit when you try to lay out a side with him in for me, I prefer my CM players to either have more bite & aggression, or if they're lighter weight, to offer more of an attacking presence. There are exceptions, like Alonso, who are just that good that they can make it work despite not fitting into either category, but he is nowhere near that level, on the ball or off.

As such him being dropped wouldn't bother me, if only we had someone good enough to step straight into the side. I don't think any of the very promising younger players are good enough to be in regularly, nor do I think it would help their development.
 
Rosco said:
I didn't think he looked as busy as he used to.

The injury and conditioning are one and the same thing. Its a foot injury where the pain comes from inflammation of the fascia caused by running. The solution is, quite simply, to do no running.

As a game wears on the pain from that injury worsens significantly. Subconciously Henderson knows this during a game and is naturally going to tailor his workrate to ward off the pain for as long as possible.

Henderson has to tread a really difficult line in training - he has to be fully fit whilst limiting his running to give himself a chance at playing. Its a pain management situation.

None of this should be surprising.
Click to expand...
Well that is some predicament to be in. His best skill is his work rate, but he can't allow himself to run?
Doesn't look good at all. I didn't know that his injury was that bad.
If what you say is true, Henderson has to reinvent himself in order to have a future at Liverpool. I'd start by watching a ton of Alonso tapes.
 
FoxForceFive said:
As Ross says, it's not surprising. I'm pretty sure it's one of the main factors in us targeting Keita too.

His work-rate was key to at least two-thirds of his effectiveness, once that is compromised it affects the team in a very negative fashion.

I've never been a particular Henderson fan, because I've never known where I'd play him, he just doesn't fit when you try to lay out a side with him in for me, I prefer my CM players to either have more bite & aggression, or if they're lighter weight, to offer more of an attacking presence. There are exceptions, like Alonso, who are just that good that they can make it work despite not fitting into either category, but he is nowhere near that level, on the ball or off.

As such him being dropped wouldn't bother me, if only we had someone good enough to step straight into the side. I don't think any of the very promising younger players are good enough to be in regularly, nor do I think it would help their development.
Click to expand...
I've also seen Henderson as a CM and I still think it's his best position. The injury might be part of the reason why he's been moved to the DM role but it's not really working out for him atm.
 
It's a combination of not being very fit and not being very good. He's obviously taking quite some time to get back upto speed after last season, but I wouldn't even bother, I'd just buy a replacement. I'd probably play Milner over him too even when he is fit.
 
Modo said:
Well that is some predicament to be in. His best skill is his work rate, but he can't allow himself to run?
Doesn't look good at all. I didn't know that his injury was that bad.
If what you say is true, Henderson has to reinvent himself in order to have a future at Liverpool. I'd start by watching a ton of Alonso tapes.
Click to expand...

Thats exactly how i see it.

Either he reinvents himself or maybe we limit him to 30 mins off the bench.

There is a chance he recovers but at this point he seems to have been dealing with it for too long for that to be a likely outcome.
 
He had a few good moments in the first half, notably a brilliant 30 yard pass through the eye of a needle to Mane, and a brilliant surging RUN down the left, where he showed great acceleration that I've barely seen from him previously - his injury and apparent inability to run didn't seem to effect him then.

Maybe it's just fatigue from getting back up to speed with playing regularly again. It happens.
 
mark1975 said:
He had a few good moments in the first half, notably a brilliant 30 yard pass through the eye of a needle to Mane, and a brilliant surging RUN down the left, where he showed great acceleration that I've barely seen from him previously - his injury and apparent inability to run didn't seem to effect him then.

Maybe it's just fatigue from getting back up to speed with playing regularly again. It happens.
Click to expand...

This, it could be down to resting him and the formation change we made. He did play 90 mins on Saturday. And he has been out for a long time. Fitness wise and intensity its a whole other pressure on him when its not pre season.
Our midfield were running and pressing like crazy.

I doubt you can make loads presumptions about his condition without knowing it or how he deals with it.
 
Hansern said:
This, it could be down to resting him and the formation change we made. He did play 90 mins on Saturday. And he has been out for a long time. Fitness wise and intensity its a whole other pressure on him when its not pre season.
Our midfield were running and pressing like crazy.

I doubt you can make loads presumptions about his condition without knowing it or how he deals with it.
Click to expand...

I also have doubts that Klopp would persist with such an apparently chronically fucked player, in a system that demands continuous high intensity.
 
mark1975 said:
I also have doubts that Klopp would persist with such an apparently chronically fucked player, in a system that demands continuous high intensity.
Click to expand...
You could argue that's why we went for keita, and now apparently seri.

Both excellent in attack and, crucially, defense.

Perhaps a Henderson replacement rather than Coutinho
 
Fabio said:
You could argue that's why we went for keita, and now apparently seri.

Both excellent in attack and, crucially, defense.

Perhaps a Henderson replacement rather than Coutinho
Click to expand...

Could be, and as much as I like the three lads we have, none of them are that good that they are irreplaceable, we all know that.
 
mark1975 said:
He had a few good moments in the first half, notably a brilliant 30 yard pass through the eye of a needle to Mane, and a brilliant surging RUN down the left, where he showed great acceleration that I've barely seen from him previously - his injury and apparent inability to run didn't seem to effect him then.

Maybe it's just fatigue from getting back up to speed with playing regularly again. It happens.
Click to expand...

I think you need to wilfully ignore the nature of the injury to post the above.
 
Rosco said:
I think you need to wilfully ignore the nature of the injury to post the above.
Click to expand...

To post what? That he ran and accelerated beyond two opposition players? I'm not willfully ignoring the nature of it, I'm questioning the assumptions about the longevity of the injury and how much it is effecting him and will continue to effect him.

If one of the telltale signs is that he will avoid running, that didn't seem too apparent when he was making that run, or chasing everything down. If anything, he looked like he wanted to cover the ground but was off the pace, which is natural after a longterm injury. He didn't look like he was preserving himself or avoiding running, he just wasn't as effective at it as he has previously been.
 
He is not long back from a long term injury and people are expecting miracles which a little silly. If he is still rubbish after 10 games then fair enough
.
 
mark1975 said:
To post what? That he ran and accelerated beyond two opposition players? I'm not willfully ignoring the nature of it, I'm questioning the assumptions about the longevity of the injury and how much it is effecting him and will continue to effect him.

If one of the telltale signs is that he will avoid running, that didn't seem too apparent when he was making that run, or chasing everything down. If anything, he looked like he wanted to cover the ground but was off the pace, which is natural after a longterm injury. He didn't look like he was preserving himself or avoiding running, he just wasn't as effective at it as he has previously been.
Click to expand...

Its not really that black and white.

Its obvious given how many times he's had to he has had its a chronic injury. He's never injured / non injured, he'll be suffering to some degree all the time. Are we at two years now that he's been dealing with it ?

Clearly his running in training is being limited:
Klopp explained: “We know much more about it after last season.
We don't train a lot between games in this period.

“Instead of running one day doing recovery with the other players who played 90 minutes, Hendo will be on the bike.
Click to expand...


On account of the complexity of Henderson’s injury, which he also suffered last season, Klopp admitted that it has been difficult to set a reliable return date.

"Like it is always, you wish a ligament was snapped,” he added. “Then you know if you fix it or wait for it, it will be six weeks, eight weeks or whatever. This is the kind of issue where you have to wait. That is how the body is sometimes.

"Jordan can manage really well. It was the medical department that said he has to rest. We still have to."
Click to expand...

Henderson clearly understands the nature of it:
But with my heel there isn't a time scale, there isn't really a cure. I've been pretty down about it because we couldn't find the answers. Now I'm at a point where I can function – where I can train and start playing some part in games. Hopefully I can continue like that and it will continue to get better.
Click to expand...

When I am coming on all I am focusing on is trying to play my best for the team, but there are times in the game when I feel it a little bit and think: 'Is it back?' I just need to forget about that and concentrate on playing football. If it comes back, it comes back."
Click to expand...
 
In the first half he made 2 or 3 interceptions, and several excellent long passes that he is probably the only player on the pitch would attempt. I think his ability to release Mane and Salah from deep is a key tactic from Klopp to make us less predictable and more direct. He also recycled the ball well (the water carrying that is the task of a number 6). He hasn't looked 100% and it may be he is working his way to full match sharpness after a significant absence, but to have a thread bemoaning a problem with Hendo when Gini has been AWOL in midfield for two entire games is, well, strange.
 
doctor_mac said:
In the first half he made 2 or 3 interceptions, and several excellent long passes that he is probably the only player on the pitch would attempt. I think his ability to release Mane and Salah from deep is a key tactic from Klopp to make us less predictable and more direct. He also recycled the ball well (the water carrying that is the task of a number 6). He hasn't looked 100% and it may be he is working his way to full match sharpness after a significant absence, but to have a thread bemoaning a problem with Hendo when Gini has been AWOL in midfield for two entire games is, well, strange.
Click to expand...
I get the point, however gini has often been bemoaned. Fuck knows he pisses me off because he can be SO good

I think the worry with hendo is that he isn't the same player he was prior to the injury, and there's a strong possibility that he may never be

Can he reinvent himself in to pirlo/alonso type, dictating play from deep?
 
hmmmmm1 said:
He is not long back from a long term injury and people are expecting miracles which a little silly. If he is still rubbish after 10 games then fair enough
.
Click to expand...

If we need to wait 10 games for an injury prone player to get up to speed, there's something wrong.
 
Fabio said:
I get the point, however gini has often been bemoaned. Fuck knows he pisses me off because he can be SO good

I think the worry with hendo is that he isn't the same player he was prior to the injury, and there's a strong possibility that he may never be

Can he reinvent himself in to pirlo/alonso type, dictating play from deep?
Click to expand...

I don't think he can. That is not natural for him and hence there will be others better suited than him anyway. I think he creates å headache for the coaching team.
 
I've always been a big Hendo fan but the balance in our midfield is definitely off - the Henderson, Wijnaldum, Can trio doesn't wrk for me. Although Wijnaldum disappears frequently, it's Henderson's injuries that most have me worried. If he can't be at o close to 100% throughout the season we seriously need to look at a replacement. This is where either the addition of Keita (to replace his all action style) or shifting of Coutinho (to replace the passing range) comes in. As it is, the three midfielders are too much of a muchness.
 
he was never very good but at least he covered ground. If he can't do that anymore he's gotta go.

Good job we've got so much cover
 
The fact that we have very little cover for defensive midfielder or whatever role he gets Henderson to play is quite worrying as without Lucas now we only really have Milner to play there and he' s not exactly mobile or fast.
I presume that was one reason why we were after Keita but the squad needs more players who can play in midfield and put a tackle in. Wijnaldum is about as much use away from home as Vladimir Smicer was so if possible i wouldn't even bother playing him in away games as he's useless, save him for the home games when he's strangely more effective.
 
This Gini being shit away from home is weird too. Either he sorts that out or he can fuck off as well. Get him a shrink or something, but there's no point in having him in the squad if that's how it is
 
Woland said:
This Gini being shit away from home is weird too. Either he sorts that out or he can fuck off as well. Get him a shrink or something, but there's no point in having him in the squad if that's how it is
Click to expand...
It is strange isn't it? Most commentators are obsessed with him not scoring away from home but it's his all round performances that are crap not just his scoring. Multiple times last night their players made runs though the midfield and no one goes with the runners including Wijnaldum and we wonder why our shit defence looks so shit so often.
 
Woland said:
This Gini being shit away from home is weird too. Either he sorts that out or he can fuck off as well. Get him a shrink or something, but there's no point in having him in the squad if that's how it is
Click to expand...
I now don't like him at all. I thought he'd get tougher but he hasn't.
The point is, away from home teams sit back a lot. Which means he has all the space in the world in the middle of the park, and can make runs into the box whenever he pleases. Away from home when we're under pressure, he gets exposed. Repeatedly. And can't do anything going forward.
He either toughens up or gets replaced.
 
Fabio said:
You could argue that's why we went for keita, and now apparently seri.

Both excellent in attack and, crucially, defense.

Perhaps a Henderson replacement rather than Coutinho
Click to expand...
Seri isn't a defensive midfielder at all, he's a creative/attacking mid. Averaged 0.9 tackles per game last season (Keita averages about x4 that).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom