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Hillsborough - Judgement Day

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A different thought occured to me as I read through this thread and the articles mentioned.

Now that it is clear how this tragedy could happen does anyone think there will be a change to the stance in England about standing at matches?

As someone badly injured at Hillsborough I have no trouble with the idea of safe standing like they have in Germany. Never have. It was never about the terraces, we looked after our own. Older blokes looked out for the youngsters and even though it was mad at times on the Kop it was never truly dangerous. Like a giant, joyous moshpit. One of the greatest feelings in my life.

Removing fences and having proper exits and the way crowds behave and are stewarded now it would be ace to have it back. We stand up when the atmosphere gets going anyway – home, away, at Wembley – I would welcome it back done properly.

The crush that made me and my mate climb out of pen 3 at the semi the year before and the fact that when they announced the 89 semi would be there again and I said to my mum 'it's not big enough'. says it all to me. (she reminded me I said that when I spoke with her yesterday, like much of those events I have little or no recollection).

Shit hole of a stadium, the day run by an incompetent cunt, no organisation, no understanding, no plan, we all know the reasons it happened. If they had requested a delay in kick off and shut the tunnel off before they opened the gate and the only way for everyone to filter was to the two outside pens 96 of our friends would have come home safe. Two calls. One to match officials. One to the coppers at the turnstile. That's all it took. My disgust and hatred for Duckenfield and his superiors even before the ensuing lies, conspiracy and cover up knows no bounds. And that despicable cunt Kelly at the FA.

AAAAAAAANYWAY.

Whether the club would ever even contemplate the idea of safe standing, understandably, is another matter. Even if other clubs pushed for it, which I can't imagine them doing either.
Just my opinion of course.
 
Families of fans involved in the Hillsborough tragedy are to sue South Yorkshire and West Midlands police forces for £20m.

Now we're talking. I know a little bit about misfeasance in public office. So now this will play out in one of two ways, either they win, or else I'll quietly make sure they win.
 
Now we're talking. I know a little bit about misfeasance in public office. So now this will play out in one of two ways, either they win, or else I'll quietly make sure they win.
A very modest sum given the circumstances. In the US, the number would be followed by Billion.

The question is where should the money come from? I can't imagine local governments have significant funds and they would likely raise funds through various austerity measures (cut services, increase taxes). Seems perhaps the Home Secretary should make good on her dialog and seek a fair settlement for the families along with some of the reforms Burnham called for.
 
A very modest sum given the circumstances. In the US, the number would be followed by Billion.

The question is where should the money come from? I can't imagine local governments have significant funds and they would likely raise funds through various austerity measures (cut services, increase taxes). Seems perhaps the Home Secretary should make good on her dialog and seek a fair settlement for the families along with some of the reforms Burnham called for.

Liability will be split between the public body and the officer responsible. There is case law where people have tried to sue low ranking officers, and the judge basically said no you can't hold him liable. The flip side is that high ranking members of a public body who either (a) lead people, or (b) make strategic decisions, are considered vicariously liable.

So Duckenfield will be coughing up everything he can afford. Not just for his own mistakes, but any mistakes made by the people under him. The rest of the money will come from the public purse.
 
A very modest sum given the circumstances. In the US, the number would be followed by Billion.

The question is where should the money come from? I can't imagine local governments have significant funds and they would likely raise funds through various austerity measures (cut services, increase taxes). Seems perhaps the Home Secretary should make good on her dialog and seek a fair settlement for the families along with some of the reforms Burnham called for.
The government is ultimately responsible for the police force, & they 'found' 120 billion to bail out those cunting bankers (instead of jailing/shooting them as they clearly should have), so I'm sure 20 million can be 'found' even more easily.
 
True, but the problem then is that the cuts they make elsewhere will go even deeper in order to plug the gap. There's always this problem with compo against a public body - in a world of finite resources that money will have to be taken from another needy cause elsewhere.
 
So, it seems the 20 million is a press invention

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Richard Keys:


isn't an easy one to write, for many reasons. If I'm honest, I've absolutely no idea where the next few hundred words are going to take me. I haven't thought about this piece or researched it very well, it's just going to be a whole lot of incoherent thoughts. So here goes. And stay with me, please.

I don't want to give the wrong impressions here. Hillsborough was never my fight, but I've always felt close to those battling for the long overdue result that they got yesterday (Monday).

Let me try and explain. I left Liverpool a couple of years before the disaster. The regular readers amongst you know I had four wonderful years in the City and made many good friends. My wife was born in Liverpool and grew up on The Wirral. We were with her parents the weekend after Hillsborough - I can't remember why - work, I think. Maybe it was just a family visit.

Obviously the mood, all over Merseyside, was sombre. You couldn't help be touched by it - nor the scenes of people snaking round Anfield, holding flowers which they were going to lay on the pitch, just wanting to be near their club and other like minded, stunned supporters.

Look. It's not my club so I had no right, but I was overcome by it all. I put on a suit, bought flowers myself and drove to Anfield. I wanted to do what everybody else was doing, but I felt somewhat of an interloper. I obviously knew people at the club, so when I slipped in a side gate and quietly worked my way onto The Kop no-one gave me a second glance. I put flowers down, drew breath, said a few words and cried. You couldn't help but cry. Everybody did.

The scene in front of me was incredible. At this time more than half the pitch was covered in flowers. Thousands were pouring in to pay their respects.

I don't know how long I was there but as I was leaving I heard a familiar brusk Scottish voice 'hey, where are you going?' Initially I thought I'd been rumbled but as I turned round I saw Kenny Dalglish. 'What are you doing here?' was the next question. Kenny loved a wind up, but surely not at a time like this! Of course, I didn't have to reply!
We stood together for a while marvelling at what was unfolding before us. I think he told me he'd been on The Kop every day since the disaster. He knew where people had left things, teddy bears and the like. He knew the people who'd left them. It had got to him deeply. Remember, he was now player/manager.
What happened next was extra-ordinary.

'Come and meet some people', he said. He took me off to the players lounge where relatives of those who'd lost their lives, players, players wives, his wife Marina, counsellors, clergy - all sorts, were sitting talking, consoling each other and unburdening themselves.

Kenny just wanted me to talk to people. I had no idea what to say or who to say it to, but it was hugely touching listening and sharing their stories.

Again, I was looking to leave. I'd got family myself at home and - can you believe - I felt I should be with them. Again, Kenny stopped me. 'We've got a service at Tranmere this afternoon', he said. 'You're coming'. This time it wasn't an invitation, it was an instruction!

He was at the heart of everything. It was incredible to see him and Marina organising everything - on the fly.
Next minute I was being ushered, with the entire first team squad, into a bus that would take us to Prenton Park. There were thousands outside Anfield. He had time for everybody. I remember someone putting an Everton scarf round him. He took half a dozen paces, took it off and gave it to another Evertonian! Brilliant. No-one was offended. I actually not sure anyone really noticed except me, but a potential minefield had been avoided!
We sat and spoke all the way there and back. Needless to say, the occasion was enormously moving.
As we arrived back at Anfield I remember thinking 'I'm touched by the day. It's been incredible. I've been extremely fortunate to have been invited into the inner sanctum, but I've got to go now'.

No chance! He had me back in that players lounge as soon as I stepped off the bus. He knew what I was thinking before I did. He always knew what other people were thinking. It's what made him such a great player - and such an awkward interviewee!

Back I went for another couple of hours to hear more harrowing tales. Eventually I had to leave. I went to find him. I thought he'd be in his office. Marina was outside so I asked where Kenny was. Here's the reply 'He's just gone into the office with a counsellor. They'll be back out in a couple of minutes and she'll be asking for help!' Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Do you know what? She was right they were. I don't know what happened to the counsellor but I'm guessing she was right again! Mind you, Marina has always been right and a little bit smarter than her husband, who would never accept that!

This time I was allowed to leave. I went with very mixed emotions. Relief, tiredness, in awe of Kenny and his wife, the whole day had been an experience like no other.

For me, it was over. Not until yesterday (Monday) was it over for the remarkable people of Liverpool, who never gave up.

Kenny went onto to make sure the club were represented at all 96 funerals of the Hillsborough victims. He and Marina were two of many remarkable people connected with the club at that time.

Two years later it all caught up with Kenny. He got ill. He's addressed what happened in his autobiography, but the bottom line was, he no longer felt he could give of his best to Liverpool, so he walked away. Typical. The club had to come first.

I've got my own theories on what Liverpool FC should've done next - but they chose to appoint Graeme Souness as his successor.

There's so much more to say on this subject, but let's spool forward to the time Andy and I turned up at TalkSPORT.

I noticed a line in the press that Hillsborough was going to be put back in the agenda. Again, my memory is a little scratchy on this, but I think there was going to be a Commons debate because an on-like petition of 100,000 people had forced one.

I went to see our gaffer, Moz Dee. Money was tight, but I told him I wanted to go to Liverpool and do a series of specials on Hillsborough. I felt that because so much time had passed a new generation of football fan should be made aware of what happened, and those that had forgotten should be reminded.

Dee, to his eternal credit, backed me. The three programmes that we - a small team - put together were incredible. That's not because we were clever, it was because real people turned up and told real stories. Those that heard those programmes will never forget them. It did the job. All of a sudden everybody was talking about Hillsborough.

Kenny didn't want to take part in those shows, but some time later he came on the programme and told of his own incredible involvement, although it wasn't easy to get him to do so. I text him on the day of the jury's judgements to say 'well done'. Part of his reply read 'only doing what anybody else would've done old boy'. No Kenny. You weren't. You never gave up. You were a focal point for everybody. You cared. You fought. You won your greatest battle, despite some really tough times at home. You are a genuine great. A legend, who's contribution to the Hillsborough cause and 'your' club will never be forgotten.

One other little story in closing. On that TalkSPORT programme Kenny told the tale of the former Sun editor, Kelvin McKenzie, calling him some time after that newspapers outrageous front page following the disaster. Liverpool fans know exactly what I'm talking about.

Kenny took the call. An agitated McKenzie explained that he was coming under pressure from his bosses because the paper was no longer selling on Merseyside. It still isn't, but McKenzie wanted Kenny's help to change that.

He asked 'what can we do'. The reply was typical 'you run another front page, in the same bold type, that reads WE LIED'. They never did, but yesterday it was proven that THEY ALL LIED.

If Kenny ever happens across this piece he'll be furious. Part of the reason we've shared so much down the years is because he knew he could trust me. Well I've broken that trust here - but with good reason. This is it.....

Down the years I've watched many sportsmen knighted, some for outstanding achievement, some because politically it suited different Governments to do so.

It's wrong, just plain wrong, that one of the perpetrators of the outlandish cover up over Hillsborough is Norman Bettison. I refuse to call him 'Sir'.

I don't know what happens to the poor souls who fought such a brave fight for the 96 - the 96 that we knew about, but there were so many more victims left behind - but I do know this. Kenneth Mathieson Dalglish should be knighted for everything he's done for the City of Liverpool down the years. And I'm sorry 'old boy' that I've been a touch indiscreet - but I've had to be. You're a giant Sir Kenny.
 
Richard Keys:


isn't an easy one to write, for many reasons. If I'm honest, I've absolutely no idea where the next few hundred words are going to take me. I haven't thought about this piece or researched it very well, it's just going to be a whole lot of incoherent thoughts. So here goes. And stay with me, please.

I don't want to give the wrong impressions here. Hillsborough was never my fight, but I've always felt close to those battling for the long overdue result that they got yesterday (Monday).

Let me try and explain. I left Liverpool a couple of years before the disaster. The regular readers amongst you know I had four wonderful years in the City and made many good friends. My wife was born in Liverpool and grew up on The Wirral. We were with her parents the weekend after Hillsborough - I can't remember why - work, I think. Maybe it was just a family visit.

Obviously the mood, all over Merseyside, was sombre. You couldn't help be touched by it - nor the scenes of people snaking round Anfield, holding flowers which they were going to lay on the pitch, just wanting to be near their club and other like minded, stunned supporters.

Look. It's not my club so I had no right, but I was overcome by it all. I put on a suit, bought flowers myself and drove to Anfield. I wanted to do what everybody else was doing, but I felt somewhat of an interloper. I obviously knew people at the club, so when I slipped in a side gate and quietly worked my way onto The Kop no-one gave me a second glance. I put flowers down, drew breath, said a few words and cried. You couldn't help but cry. Everybody did.

The scene in front of me was incredible. At this time more than half the pitch was covered in flowers. Thousands were pouring in to pay their respects.

I don't know how long I was there but as I was leaving I heard a familiar brusk Scottish voice 'hey, where are you going?' Initially I thought I'd been rumbled but as I turned round I saw Kenny Dalglish. 'What are you doing here?' was the next question. Kenny loved a wind up, but surely not at a time like this! Of course, I didn't have to reply!
We stood together for a while marvelling at what was unfolding before us. I think he told me he'd been on The Kop every day since the disaster. He knew where people had left things, teddy bears and the like. He knew the people who'd left them. It had got to him deeply. Remember, he was now player/manager.
What happened next was extra-ordinary.

'Come and meet some people', he said. He took me off to the players lounge where relatives of those who'd lost their lives, players, players wives, his wife Marina, counsellors, clergy - all sorts, were sitting talking, consoling each other and unburdening themselves.

Kenny just wanted me to talk to people. I had no idea what to say or who to say it to, but it was hugely touching listening and sharing their stories.

Again, I was looking to leave. I'd got family myself at home and - can you believe - I felt I should be with them. Again, Kenny stopped me. 'We've got a service at Tranmere this afternoon', he said. 'You're coming'. This time it wasn't an invitation, it was an instruction!

He was at the heart of everything. It was incredible to see him and Marina organising everything - on the fly.
Next minute I was being ushered, with the entire first team squad, into a bus that would take us to Prenton Park. There were thousands outside Anfield. He had time for everybody. I remember someone putting an Everton scarf round him. He took half a dozen paces, took it off and gave it to another Evertonian! Brilliant. No-one was offended. I actually not sure anyone really noticed except me, but a potential minefield had been avoided!
We sat and spoke all the way there and back. Needless to say, the occasion was enormously moving.
As we arrived back at Anfield I remember thinking 'I'm touched by the day. It's been incredible. I've been extremely fortunate to have been invited into the inner sanctum, but I've got to go now'.

No chance! He had me back in that players lounge as soon as I stepped off the bus. He knew what I was thinking before I did. He always knew what other people were thinking. It's what made him such a great player - and such an awkward interviewee!

Back I went for another couple of hours to hear more harrowing tales. Eventually I had to leave. I went to find him. I thought he'd be in his office. Marina was outside so I asked where Kenny was. Here's the reply 'He's just gone into the office with a counsellor. They'll be back out in a couple of minutes and she'll be asking for help!' Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Do you know what? She was right they were. I don't know what happened to the counsellor but I'm guessing she was right again! Mind you, Marina has always been right and a little bit smarter than her husband, who would never accept that!

This time I was allowed to leave. I went with very mixed emotions. Relief, tiredness, in awe of Kenny and his wife, the whole day had been an experience like no other.

For me, it was over. Not until yesterday (Monday) was it over for the remarkable people of Liverpool, who never gave up.

Kenny went onto to make sure the club were represented at all 96 funerals of the Hillsborough victims. He and Marina were two of many remarkable people connected with the club at that time.

Two years later it all caught up with Kenny. He got ill. He's addressed what happened in his autobiography, but the bottom line was, he no longer felt he could give of his best to Liverpool, so he walked away. Typical. The club had to come first.

I've got my own theories on what Liverpool FC should've done next - but they chose to appoint Graeme Souness as his successor.

There's so much more to say on this subject, but let's spool forward to the time Andy and I turned up at TalkSPORT.

I noticed a line in the press that Hillsborough was going to be put back in the agenda. Again, my memory is a little scratchy on this, but I think there was going to be a Commons debate because an on-like petition of 100,000 people had forced one.

I went to see our gaffer, Moz Dee. Money was tight, but I told him I wanted to go to Liverpool and do a series of specials on Hillsborough. I felt that because so much time had passed a new generation of football fan should be made aware of what happened, and those that had forgotten should be reminded.

Dee, to his eternal credit, backed me. The three programmes that we - a small team - put together were incredible. That's not because we were clever, it was because real people turned up and told real stories. Those that heard those programmes will never forget them. It did the job. All of a sudden everybody was talking about Hillsborough.

Kenny didn't want to take part in those shows, but some time later he came on the programme and told of his own incredible involvement, although it wasn't easy to get him to do so. I text him on the day of the jury's judgements to say 'well done'. Part of his reply read 'only doing what anybody else would've done old boy'. No Kenny. You weren't. You never gave up. You were a focal point for everybody. You cared. You fought. You won your greatest battle, despite some really tough times at home. You are a genuine great. A legend, who's contribution to the Hillsborough cause and 'your' club will never be forgotten.

One other little story in closing. On that TalkSPORT programme Kenny told the tale of the former Sun editor, Kelvin McKenzie, calling him some time after that newspapers outrageous front page following the disaster. Liverpool fans know exactly what I'm talking about.

Kenny took the call. An agitated McKenzie explained that he was coming under pressure from his bosses because the paper was no longer selling on Merseyside. It still isn't, but McKenzie wanted Kenny's help to change that.

He asked 'what can we do'. The reply was typical 'you run another front page, in the same bold type, that reads WE LIED'. They never did, but yesterday it was proven that THEY ALL LIED.

If Kenny ever happens across this piece he'll be furious. Part of the reason we've shared so much down the years is because he knew he could trust me. Well I've broken that trust here - but with good reason. This is it.....

Down the years I've watched many sportsmen knighted, some for outstanding achievement, some because politically it suited different Governments to do so.

It's wrong, just plain wrong, that one of the perpetrators of the outlandish cover up over Hillsborough is Norman Bettison. I refuse to call him 'Sir'.

I don't know what happens to the poor souls who fought such a brave fight for the 96 - the 96 that we knew about, but there were so many more victims left behind - but I do know this. Kenneth Mathieson Dalglish should be knighted for everything he's done for the City of Liverpool down the years. And I'm sorry 'old boy' that I've been a touch indiscreet - but I've had to be. You're a giant Sir Kenny.

Richard Keys has just made a massive leap in my estimations.
 
Hmmm. It's a nice read in a number of ways but, if Keys really is spilling stuff the King thought he'd keep (and wanted him to keep) to himself, I don't think that's on, plus he was always as quick as his mate Gray to have a dig at us in his Sky Sports days. Distinctly mixed feelings on this one.
 
Hmmm. It's a nice read in a number of ways but, if Keys really is spilling stuff the King thought he'd keep (and wanted him to keep) to himself, I don't think that's on, plus he was always as quick as his mate Gray to have a dig at us in his Sky Sports days. Distinctly mixed feelings on this one.

Mate, the fact that he was actually moved to go and lay flowers at Anfield gives him a dimension that I didn't know was in him. Sniping, hairy-handed cunt was my general impression of him before this. This article suggests that, against all odds, he has some inner depth.
 
Why give Kenny a knighthood when he's already the King? Plus he'd be getting a knighthood from the very establishment that fought so long to cover things up.

It's up to him to accept or reject it, but he should be offered it. He deserves it more than most.
 
You know I'm not arsed about this knighting of Kenny Dalglish. What does he need it for ? He's a club legend and respected massively by those people who have the common sense to understand what happened and his contribution to supporting the families in the aftermath that ultimately made him ill. And I really don't think he'd want a knighthood either. Why would you want rewarded by a State that did so much to cover up and place blame on those affected and also why would he want to be bundled in the same club as cunts like Bettison and Bernard Ingham? Making Bettison chief constable of Merseyside was a fucking insult as well. If it were me I'd tell them to ram their knighthood right up their hoops.
 
You know I'm not arsed about this knighting of Kenny Dalglish. What does he need it for ? He's a club legend and respected massively by those people who have the common sense to understand what happened and his contribution to supporting the families in the aftermath that ultimately made him ill. And I really don't think he'd want a knighthood either. Why would you want rewarded by a State that did so much to cover up and place blame on those affected and also why would he want to be bundled in the same club as cunts like Bettison and Bernard Ingham? Making Bettison chief constable of Merseyside was a fucking insult as well. If it were me I'd tell them to ram their knighthood right up their hoops.

This is what I was thinking but couldn't be arsed typing. New years honours are little trinkets handed down from the lizards to their 'subjects', it's all very patronising. If one is offered to someone not born into that circle (as most of them are) it's a simple call to 'be one of us'. Fuck all of them.

Now if it were a peerage, so he could argue his case legally, that would be a different matter.
 
If it were me I'd tell them to ram their knighthood right up their hoops.

Unless you were offered one first you'd sound a bit silly saying anything at all. What should be offered, within the context of convention, is one thing. How one responds to being offered it is another matter. Some, in terms of gender equality, educational policy, health needs, green issues, etc etc, have taken one simply because it gives them, or they feel it will give them, a greater degree of access, influence or even power to pursue their good works and support deserving people and causes (I dare say, for example, that Margaret Aspinall would do quite well in an admirable way if she got a peerage, even though she'd probably not want it). Others tell them where to stick it. That's their right.There's plenty of room for debate within all of that. But it's as dubious to dismiss such nuanced attitudes out of hand as it is to leap to the other extreme. For me, purely personally, it sticks in the craw to see 'socialists' like Ginsoak get a knighthood while Dalglish is repeatedly overlooked. What he'd say if he was belatedly offered one is simply a matter for him as his right.
 
I'm not an expert on knighthoods and all those other awards, but one that I have an irrational hatred for is the OBE. Order of the British Empire. How the fuck is an empire still a thing in 2016?
 
My father in law, who passed away 25 years ago, was twice offered the OBE (or MBE) and twice turned it down. He was a moderate nationalist (i.e. SDLP voter) council officer in Strabane.

I am sure it was 90% on principal, but may also have been as he had a healthy relationship with his kneecaps that he wanted to continue.

I use that, as well as my mother in law being a cousin of Peadar O'Donnell and Jim Larkin being from Liverpool to claim some level legitimacy in this country :)
 
I'm not an expert on knighthoods and all those other awards, but one that I have an irrational hatred for is the OBE. Order of the British Empire. How the fuck is an empire still a thing in 2016?

Because having a few off shore territories makes it easy to evade tax. That's pretty much the purpose of all the remaining parts of the empire. Apart from Pitcairn, which was, well let's not go there.
 
Unless you were offered one first you'd sound a bit silly saying anything at all. What should be offered, within the context of convention, is one thing. How one responds to being offered it is another matter. Some, in terms of gender equality, educational policy, health needs, green issues, etc etc, have taken one simply because it gives them, or they feel it will give them, a greater degree of access, influence or even power to pursue their good works and support deserving people and causes (I dare say, for example, that Margaret Aspinall would do quite well in an admirable way if she got a peerage, even though she'd probably not want it). Others tell them where to stick it. That's their right.There's plenty of room for debate within all of that. But it's as dubious to dismiss such nuanced attitudes out of hand as it is to leap to the other extreme. For me, purely personally, it sticks in the craw to see 'socialists' like Ginsoak get a knighthood while Dalglish is repeatedly overlooked. What he'd say if he was belatedly offered one is simply a matter for him as his right.

That's why I said "If it were me" . Bit obvious really
 
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