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Lovren's got his work cut out...

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Ryan

The Prophet
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Alright, so we really need to highlight how systemic our defensive issues are, and how much Lovren has to do.

This has been my constant bugbear with Brodge since day 1; he has no fucking clue how to set a team up defensively. He thinks you need a loud leader in there to control things. He loved Carragher, dropped every cunt he could find after we got battered at Old Trafford a few years back, and went and bought Lovren to 'be that leader who attacks things'.

Not that I'm against Lovren, I'm all fucking for him like, but we need more than a player, we need to be able to defend as a team. Mancini got pilloried in his first year or two at City for being ultra defensive, but they went and won the league off the back of it. And Pellegrini reaped the rewards of it too. Kompany, Hart, Zabaleta, great names, but they've got a great system which is the key thing. Look at us - Shoving Lovren in there is like sticking lipstick on a pig.

Case in point; their goal yesterday. Right, a Vine vid doesn't highlight full games so you're gonna have to take my word for this; Lovren spent the entire 90 minutes yesterday urging our defensive line forward. Southampton in possession, they play a sideways or backwards pass whilst they're in the attacking half, and Lovren does what a centre back should do; advance forward. Any half-arsed centre back that's lived on this planet and stood on a training pitch knows that's your cue. They go backwards, you charge up the field. Carragher was great at it, Terry is great at it, it's defending 1.01.

Lovren did it all first half, Only problem? Glenjo, Manquillo and Skretl stood exactly where they were. so we had 1 defender moving up the ground, and our 3 other (mostly experienced I might add) defenders standing still. I was screaming at the fucking TV. As I said earlier, Lovren's only gonna stand for that shit for so long.

You think our man Dejan would put up with the shite we served up in our last 3 games away to Norwich or away to Palace last season? Would he fuck.

Anyway, back to the goal. Watch this -
https://vine.co/v/M35vlUQT1Pw
- I'm gonna need you to watch this a few times by the way.

Look at Lovren in the first 2 seconds. Moving forward, arms spread, run out with me cunts. That's called being a centre back.

Then watch the video again. Here you go -
https://vine.co/v/M35vlUQT1Pw
Look at Skrtel and Manquillo for just about any second you like. Standing still. Skrtel sorta half moves forward then thinks fuck that.

Watch it for a third time - https://vine.co/v/M35vlUQT1Pw - Lovren covers Pelle (I think) and has to move towards the camera to do so. Again, being a defender. Cover the threat.

It's Skrtel's lack of movement here that kills me. The second Lovren goes, Skrtel has to cover. He has to get close to Lovren and tighten the gap. Run towards the fucking camera. Just even pretend you two are close. He does nothing. He's still not sure if he should be going forward or backwards. He shouldn't be doing either, he should be getting closer to Lovren. Terry Carvalho, Bruce Pallister, Hyypia Henchoz, Adams Bould - they all stood and worked togethor. Really it's not that fucking hard.

By that stage we're done. Our centre halves are split, Clyne makes the run in behind, Skrtel has to leg it over to try and block (ever wonder why Skrtel is always on the ground making last ditch sliding tackles? It's cos he is ALWAYS OUT OF FUCKING POSITION) and fails to do so. 1-1.

Our problems aren't Glenjo in isolation, or Skrtel Vs Sakho. Our defensive issues are systemic, and it's asking far too much of Lovren alone to try and fix that.
 
Has Steve Clarke got a job yet?

If not get the man back in.

We all said it last season, half jokingly for some periods, cos let's face it, we were playing sublime counter attacking football partly because we let teams advance on us, but we can't do that with the same aplomb this season, cos we don't have suarez to the up two or more defenders & make the keeper check whether his shorts are visibly brown every time we play the ball up the pitch.

Not every team will play like Southampton did yesterday, that dedication to pressing & keeping tight has been ingrained on them throughout their time there, but we won't be that free flowing team we were regardless. Rope a dope as many called it, won't work as much as we need it to.

It's annoying to me, cos Rodgers had us pressing perfectly until he slipped into this formation & style whilst trying to accommodate sturridge, so we know he can keep us playing at least tight football, yet he isn't doing now.
 
Alright, so we really need to highlight how systemic our defensive issues are, and how much Lovren has to do.

This has been my constant bugbear with Brodge since day 1; he has no fucking clue how to set a team up defensively. He thinks you nee a loud leader in there to control things. He loved Carragher, dropped every cunt he could find after we got battered at Old Trafford a few years back, and went and bought Lovren to 'be that leader who attacks things'.

Not that I'm against Lovren, I'm all fucking for him like, but we need more than a player, we need a leader. Shoving Lovren in there is like sticking lipstick on a pig.

Case in point; their goal yesterday. Right, a Vine vid doesn't highlight 90 minutes so you're gonna have to take my word for this; Lovren spent the entire 90 minutes yesterday urging our defensive line forward. Southampton in possession, they play a sideways or backwards pass whilst they're in the attacking half, and Lovren does what a centre back should do; advance forward. Any half-arsed centre back that's lived on this planet and stood on a training pitch knows that's your cue. They go backwards, you charge up the field. Carragher was great at it, Terry is great at it, it's defending 1.01.

Lovren did it all first half, Only problem? Glenjo, Manquillo and Skretl stood exactly where they were. so we had 1 defender moving up the ground, and our 3 other (mostly experienced I might add) defenders standing still. I was screaming at the fucking TV. As I said earlier, Lovren's only gonna stand for that shit for so long.

You think our man Dejan would put up with the shite we served up in our last 3 games away to Norwich or away to Palace last season? Would he fuck.

Anyway, back to the goal. Watch this -
https://vine.co/v/M35vlUQT1Pw
- I'm gonna need you to watch this a few times by the way.

Look at Lovren in the first 2 seconds. Moving forward, arms spread, run out with me cunts. That's called being a centre back.

Then watch the video again. Here you go -
https://vine.co/v/M35vlUQT1Pw
Look at Skrtel and Manquillo for just about any second you like. Standing still. Skrtel sorta half moves forward then thinks fuck that.

Watch it for a third time - https://vine.co/v/M35vlUQT1Pw - Lovren covers Pelle (I think) and has to move towards the camera to do so. Again, being a defender. Cover the threat.

It's Skrtel's lack of movement here that kills me. The second Lovren goes, Skrtel has to cover. He has to get close to Lovren and tighten the gap. Run towards the fucking camera. Just even pretend you two are close. He does nothing. He's still not sure if he should be going forward or backwards. He shouldn't be doing either, he should be getting closer to Lovren. Terry Carvalho, Bruce Pallister, Hyypia Henchoz, Adams Bould - they all stood and worked togethor. Really it's not that fucking hard.

By that stage we're done. Our centre halves are split, Clyne makes the run in behind, Skrtel has to leg it over to try and block (ever wonder why Skrtel is always on the ground making last ditch sliding tackles? It's cos he is ALWAYS OUT OF FUCKING POSITION) and fails to do so. 1-1.

Our problems aren't Glenjo in isolation, or Skrtel Vs Sakho. Our defensive issues are systemic, and it's asking far too much of Lovren alone to try and fix that.


Holy shit dude, you love your football. Remind me not to disagree with you again . Good read.
 
Good read Ryan and some very valid points. Skrtels positioning is awful in that clip and he should be much closer to Lovren. Stillm they've only trained together for a couple of weeks and played 2 games.
That back four needs time for everything to work with pressing and pushing up.
I hope Lovren loses it in training before the City game and tells them off.

Anyhoo, Lucas ballwatching is just as bad though. Track the run of Clyne and its not a goal.
 
Lucas shouldnt have been ballwatching but agree with Ryan. If the rest of the defenders had pushed up with Lovren we could have played them offside.
 
My problem with the Rodgers system is how easily teams seem to get in between our defence/midfield line and are able to run at our CBs. Ward Prowse got acre of space to play yesterday in the last 20minutes. I think we need more dynamic defensive midfielders than Gerrard and Lucas, which will help cover this. But the defence stepping up faster and closing down the space "in between the lines" (and goalkeeper not afraid to come off his line) would certainly help us improve in this area.
 
That's a good post Ryan.
I think Rodgers will change the line up next weekend.
 
There's too many slack players all over, not doing their jobs. Gerrard and Lucas are the worst culprits, which underlines the point about us needing leaders through the middle. Can's only young and has his flaws, but he's a better bet than those two at this stage. Skrtel works better with someone telling him what to do, so I think after a few games Lovren will have it drummed into him, we're still woefully exposed on the flanks though, Manquillo looks promising but inexperienced and Johnson is terrible defensively. His lame attempt to challenge for the ball that nearly resulted in a goal late on was typical of his lapses.
 
You have to wonder where this leaves Sakho though, he's so one footed that I can't really see him playing anywhere other than his favoured left sided role, but Lovren seems to have that position nailed. I know we need a squad and he'll get games, but right now, our options seem incredibly when you consider the only real depth we have for the right sided berth, is Toure.
 
I can understand Manquillo, he's young and learning the system still, Skrtel is disappointing though, i'd love to see Sakho and Lovren given a go, maybe they'll work better together.
 
Tbh, I think whoever plays, we'll struggle to fully master it defensively, because of the way the fullbacks are set up so advanced. Unless we've got someone with real positioning and defensive sense in the middle of the park, to drop in effectively as a third centre back/sweeper/anchorman, then we're always going to have defensive lapses. It's the nature of the system, we just have to cut out the other shit, like not defending high balls into the box from setpieces AND open play, that's pretty inexcusable.
 
You have to wonder where this leaves Sakho though, he's so one footed that I can't really see him playing anywhere other than his favoured left sided role, but Lovren seems to have that position nailed. I know we need a squad and he'll get games, but right now, our options seem incredibly when you consider the only real depth we have for the right sided berth, is Toure.

Lovren can easily play RCB though.
Lovren - Sakho would be my preferred CB pairing in the future.
 
For those TL;DR - Lovren pushes up and is good, the other 3 do not.

In the defence's defence, manquillo is just a kid and learning his trade and will learn from someone like Lovren, Johnson has never understood defending and made up for it by having periods when he was good going forward, and skrtel, I've never been won over by him, take away his goals scored at both ends last season and he wasn't that great, I think the goals cloud judgement on him.

I think moving forward, for me, a back 4 of manquillo, Lovren, Sakho, Moreno will work. But it's going to take a while for Lovren and Sakho to sort out a partnership, and then keep the fb's in shape.
 
You have to wonder where this leaves Sakho though, he's so one footed that I can't really see him playing anywhere other than his favoured left sided role, but Lovren seems to have that position nailed. I know we need a squad and he'll get games, but right now, our options seem incredibly when you consider the only real depth we have for the right sided berth, is Toure.

As mentioned Mark Lovren is equally adept on either foot so RCB or LCB it's the same to him. I'd love to see Lovren and Sakho given a run together. Probably Sakho is a week or two behind them fitness wise after the WC.
 
I hear what you're saying Ryan, but I look at that clip and all that sticks out for me, like a sore thumb, is Lucas ballwatching as Clyne runs around the back of him, to take the back heel and bury it .

That and Skrtel marking absolutely no-one, with no-one in front of him either. I can't actually assign any blame to Johnson there because it looks for a moment like it's going to be played wide and he starts to go to cover that threat.
 
Yet the biggest most obvious fucking problem on Sunday (and I didn't have to scream at the tv) was Lucas not tracking the run. Yes Skrtel should have come across but the problem shouldn't have got that far. Or did you miss that part Ryan?
 
Yet the biggest most obvious fucking problem on Sunday (and I didn't have to scream at the tv) was Lucas not tracking the run. Yes Skrtel should have come across but the problem shouldn't have got that far. Or did you miss that part Ryan?

In fairness aswell, Lovren had the player stood up with his back to goal, so there was no real danger to anticipate, it was just a moment of ingenuity that caught everyone off guard. The only people in a position to anticipate the danger were Lucas and arguably Lovren, Lucas was facing the run and was in a position to see it coming because he could track the run as it was clear to see. When the flick was played Skrtel was rightly holding his position in the centre because Lovren had moved out to close down the player. I think overall though, you have to look at how deep we ended up and the whole system, it works on the offensive but it's got gaping flaws that won't just be remedied by personnel.
 
Hesitated to post this clip... As if Ryan needed more encouragement to look even more smug. ;)



Glad Lambert's role in the equalizer was picked up and highlighted by Carra. On top of that, he kept the ball alive for us twice, outside and inside the box. While he wasn't directly involved in the goal, his touches helped us maintain the pressure. Somewhat similar to what Bony did for Swansea's goals against Man Utd - blocking Fletcher for the first goal, and then getting into the 6-yard box to pressure the keeper and defender as Sigurdsson fired in his winning goal.
 
Carra and Neville on Newcastle's defence last season. He sounds exasperated, and that's not even his team. It'd be fun to watch Carra on the bench as a defensive coach, if Rodgers ever wanted to bring him back in. He'd probably be rushing out into the technical area bollocking the back four every few minutes. ;)

 
Hesitated to post this clip... As if Ryan needed more encouragement to look even more smug. ;)




Heh, cheers Studz. For those of you who can't hear what Carra's saying from 1min35 to 2min00 there, here it is in quote format. Word for word:


Anyway, back to the goal. Watch this -
https://vine.co/v/M35vlUQT1Pw
- I'm gonna need you to watch this a few times by the way.

Look at Lovren in the first 2 seconds. Moving forward, arms spread, run out with me cunts. That's called being a centre back.

Then watch the video again. Here you go -
https://vine.co/v/M35vlUQT1Pw
Look at Skrtel and Manquillo for just about any second you like. Standing still. Skrtel sorta half moves forward then thinks fuck that.

Watch it for a third time - https://vine.co/v/M35vlUQT1Pw - Lovren covers Pelle (I think) and has to move towards the camera to do so. Again, being a defender. Cover the threat.

It's Skrtel's lack of movement here that kills me. The second Lovren goes, Skrtel has to cover. He has to get close to Lovren and tighten the gap. Run towards the fucking camera. Just even pretend you two are close. He does nothing. He's still not sure if he should be going forward or backwards. He shouldn't be doing either, he should be getting closer to Lovren. Terry Carvalho, Bruce Pallister, Hyypia Henchoz, Adams Bould - they all stood and worked togethor. Really it's not that fucking hard.

By that stage we're done. Our centre halves are split, Clyne makes the run in behind, Skrtel has to leg it over to try and block (ever wonder why Skrtel is always on the ground making last ditch sliding tackles? It's cos he is ALWAYS OUT OF FUCKING POSITION) and fails to do so. 1-1.
 
I hear what you're saying Ryan, but I look at that clip and all that sticks out for me, like a sore thumb, is Lucas ballwatching as Clyne runs around the back of him, to take the back heel and bury it .

Lucas's reaction to them scoring wound me up. There's no anger, just a resigned disappointment.

Given that it was his man who'd scored and we'd lost the lead, I'd have expected a bit more of a reaction.
 
Yet the biggest most obvious fucking problem on Sunday (and I didn't have to scream at the tv) was Lucas not tracking the run. Yes Skrtel should have come across but the problem shouldn't have got that far. Or did you miss that part Ryan?

I hear what you're saying Ryan, but I look at that clip and all that sticks out for me, like a sore thumb, is Lucas ballwatching as Clyne runs around the back of him, to take the back heel and bury it .


So yeah, I guess I didn't get round to commenting on Lucas' part in the goal, or Glenjo's, or Raheem's really. I'm kinda torn on whether he was Lucas's man to track or not (I'd hear an argument for Sterling, Glenjo, etc) because (and this is my greater point) the goal came because the defensive unit was and is shite, as opposed to one player.

Lucas has his critics for sure, but one of the things he has been consistently good at is tracking players. He's the best midfielder we've got at that, and there's plenty of videos out there of him trailing and covering players forever and a day. It's a wildly unappreciated part of his game. So if he did lose Clyne for the goal, then yeah he's probably as big an individual culprit as anyone, but for me the problem's bigger.

Game after game after game last season we just stood and defended on the 6 yard box. I mentioned it earlier, but the Norwich and Palace away games in the run-in were mindblowing. We go 1, 2, 3 nil up and then decide to just defend by standing beside Mignolet until the opposition scores as many as they need to get back to level, then we decide to move up the pitch again and try to score. We don't know how to do middle ground. We don't know how to defend a lead, or kill a match, or slow down the opposition. We just hang around and wait for them to score. In many ways, the longer it takes for us to go in front the better cos then we've got less time to let the opposition bang in 3 or 4.

Anyway, I'm digressing - but the above is the issue. We as a team can't defend. Skrtel, Glenjo and Agger are all 30 in the next weeks and months - and they don't know how to defend. They were the core of the side that thought it ok to let Crystal Palace play their way into the net 3 times in 10 minutes. And that wasn't a one-off - there's a reason why we conceded more than any other side in the top 8 last year. There's a reason why we conceded 5 goals in the space of a combined half an hour against Crystal Palace and Norwich, there's a reason why Southampton scored on Sunday, smacked the bar, missed a header from 2 yards, and had a further 2 or 3 scrambled out of the box, and it isn't because Lucas didn't track Clyne. It's because we have no defensive system, and that's Brodge's fault more than anyone's.

He's continually failed to address defensive issues.

So yeah, we could throw our arms up in the air about Lucas not tracking Clyne (and mount a decent case for it I'll admit) but it's not really the main issue is it?

It's kinda like surveying the Titanic on the bottom of the ocean and pointing the finger at the big piano.
 
Half of what you need to be a good defender (including 'defensive' midfielders) is positioning. For his faults, Lucas is very good at being in the right place. Gerrard isn't great at it, which makes me think he's not ever going to be great in that position. Skrtel and Agger have never been particularly fantastic. Alan Hansen was the best defender I've ever seen in terms of positioning.

Hamann was another player who was pretty much always where he should be.
 
Hesitated to post this clip... As if Ryan needed more encouragement to look even more smug.

(except for the bit where he says Lucas lost Clyne).

And that wasn't a one-off - there's a reason why we conceded more than any other side in the top 8 last year.

I think - and this isn't saying much considering how shite their defense is - Spurs beat us to this 'trophy' ...
 
100 % agree with your initial post Ryan. I was at the game and watched Lovren closely throughout. It was all we were talking about during the game. We felt sorry for Lovren trying to get the defense on the same page as himself. There he was with his arms spread, walking the defense out, trying to push them out and keep HIS line. He could have done with a lasso at times to drag the other three with him.

Johnson was pathetic. Rarely made the right decision. Allowing the ball bounce over him was breaking point for me. Does he just not care any more? Manquillo had a fine debut. He reminds me of Arbeloa. Solid if unspectacular, which isn't a bad thing. I'm liking his instant control. Gerrard pings every ball over his way and Manquillo kills it every time with different parts of his body. I'd keep him in the team.
 
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