That is also a fair point, I think our system will always leave our defenders a little vulnerable, but there's more to it than that at the moment, our players just don't look like they click yet.
Still confident?
- Thread starter Halmeister
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That's because they can excel on there own in an attacking sense, everyone else can only show there worth defensively, and to do that everyone needs to get settled and play together as a unit, that is clearly still a work in progress.
You guys aren't the only ones, let me tell you. 
At the moment, I think top 4 is going to very hard to achieve this season, and I'd be very very surprised if we're as close to top as were were last. Too many players trying to be integrated. If feel like the team has regressed a couple of years and Brendan is having to start again from scratch the way we're playing. And there's the Gerrard issue, and Suarez going.
I think 4th place would be a cracking result this season, it'll be tough to get it, but if we can sort out the defence, it can be done. I think we have goals in us at the other end whatever happens.
I think 4th place would be a cracking result this season, it'll be tough to get it, but if we can sort out the defence, it can be done. I think we have goals in us at the other end whatever happens.
We're still a point ahead of our biggest rivals for 4th, United, despite having gone away to City and Spurs, 4th wouldn't be a cracking result, anything but would be a major disappointment.
We should be able to do it, but we need to cut out the unnecessary mistakes:
1. Get Valdes in
2. Play as settled a team as possible
3. Drop Gerrard
4. Tell Lovren to sort himself out
5. Don't rest key players at fucking ridiculous times. Rodgers needs to stop trying to be too clever in general tbh.
Spurs and Everton shouldn't be too much of a problem this year from the look of things. Utd have too many problems to go on and get more than about 70 points IMO. So I reckon that's the sort of figure we need to be getting to, which really should be achievable.
We've had terrible luck with injuries with both Can and Allen getting crocked at the same time, so hopefully that will improve.
1. Get Valdes in
2. Play as settled a team as possible
3. Drop Gerrard
4. Tell Lovren to sort himself out
5. Don't rest key players at fucking ridiculous times. Rodgers needs to stop trying to be too clever in general tbh.
Spurs and Everton shouldn't be too much of a problem this year from the look of things. Utd have too many problems to go on and get more than about 70 points IMO. So I reckon that's the sort of figure we need to be getting to, which really should be achievable.
We've had terrible luck with injuries with both Can and Allen getting crocked at the same time, so hopefully that will improve.
The target should be to get to 2 points per game and then take it from there. That was the measure I applied throughout last season. After the start we've made it's going to take us another four games minimum to get there...by which time we'd have 18 from nine. Those four games are Everton (h), West Brom (h), QPR (a), Hull (h). So no, not a great start but before we're a quarter of the way through the season we could well be back on track.
The elephant in the room is Gerrard. Until that issue is sorted I don't see how we are going to function properly as a team. And his form last season is already history. He clearly should not be playing 270 mins of top competitive football a week (WTF was BR thinking) - he was jaded after 70 mins vs Ludo and virtually from the start against West Ham. I know Allen & Can were missing and could have helped (not that BR would have played either at DM) but why wasn't Rossiter, probably the only other player we have that could be a positive influence as a DM, missing from the squad, surely he was worth a try.
Anyway as I posted elsewhere :
There are three issues, I can see two resolving themselves though the third (Midfield), which in my opinion is the most critical, I'm not sure if BR has the balls for. If he does then a dip into the transfer market in January, or better utilising Can, Allen, Henderson and Rossiter, could solve it.
1. Without Sturridge, Suarez and Sterling up front we do not have the movement, pace and dynamism of last season. This can be resolved by playing Sterling up front when Sturridge is absent and with midfield runners like Allen, Markovic, Lallana and of course Sterling himself, when Sturridge is playing. Balotelli will get more space and can hold the ball up and feed those runners.
2. Valdes to replace Ming is an absolute must. His confidence alone will help settle that defence. Keep Lovren & Sakho together and give them time. Moreno, Manquillo, Flanno and Enrique are more than good enough as a group to cover those two FB slots.
3. Gerrard must be kept fresh and rotated. We may get another season or two out of him on the bench, but this season should be the one to see rotation and a changing of the guard. Lucas should never start, he is nowhere near the player he was before his injuries, many people are beginning to realise this now. BR certainly has a plan but injuries to Can and Allen forced him into making a poor decision, Lallana should have started in place of Lucas (as I said before the match).
4. I can add a 4th. BR is making team selection and tactical mistakes, as he did in his first season. IMHO this is because he has not yet figured out how to best utilise the new players at his disposal, he hasn't had the balls to bench SG (I think he'll find them) and injuries have curtailed the way he wants to set up the team (see Spurs for reference). I believe he'll get it right sooner rather than later and I do like that he is prepared to admit those mistakes and try to rectify them (3 at the back after 20 mins / Lucas off Lallana on at HT) rather than be hard-headed about it.
3rd/4th between us, Arsenal and United .... and I wouldn't want to call it at the moment because all are looking dodgy, all have issues to resolve and in all cases it lies with the managers. The big opportunity/threat is what those 3 teams will do to overcome their issues in the January Transfer Window.
Anyway as I posted elsewhere :
There are three issues, I can see two resolving themselves though the third (Midfield), which in my opinion is the most critical, I'm not sure if BR has the balls for. If he does then a dip into the transfer market in January, or better utilising Can, Allen, Henderson and Rossiter, could solve it.
1. Without Sturridge, Suarez and Sterling up front we do not have the movement, pace and dynamism of last season. This can be resolved by playing Sterling up front when Sturridge is absent and with midfield runners like Allen, Markovic, Lallana and of course Sterling himself, when Sturridge is playing. Balotelli will get more space and can hold the ball up and feed those runners.
2. Valdes to replace Ming is an absolute must. His confidence alone will help settle that defence. Keep Lovren & Sakho together and give them time. Moreno, Manquillo, Flanno and Enrique are more than good enough as a group to cover those two FB slots.
3. Gerrard must be kept fresh and rotated. We may get another season or two out of him on the bench, but this season should be the one to see rotation and a changing of the guard. Lucas should never start, he is nowhere near the player he was before his injuries, many people are beginning to realise this now. BR certainly has a plan but injuries to Can and Allen forced him into making a poor decision, Lallana should have started in place of Lucas (as I said before the match).
4. I can add a 4th. BR is making team selection and tactical mistakes, as he did in his first season. IMHO this is because he has not yet figured out how to best utilise the new players at his disposal, he hasn't had the balls to bench SG (I think he'll find them) and injuries have curtailed the way he wants to set up the team (see Spurs for reference). I believe he'll get it right sooner rather than later and I do like that he is prepared to admit those mistakes and try to rectify them (3 at the back after 20 mins / Lucas off Lallana on at HT) rather than be hard-headed about it.
3rd/4th between us, Arsenal and United .... and I wouldn't want to call it at the moment because all are looking dodgy, all have issues to resolve and in all cases it lies with the managers. The big opportunity/threat is what those 3 teams will do to overcome their issues in the January Transfer Window.
We'll coast to top four.
I wonder if the key to helping Lovren click properly is to bring play Skrtel consistently alongside him. Skrtel himself improved massively when he was switched from left-sided to right-sided CB. Lovren by contrast is used to left-sided CB but has had to play right side because he's been playing alongside Sakho quite a bit. Now I like The Beast and think he'll come good for us, but at the moment I'd like to see Skrtel and Lovren given a run of games at right and left respectively, so Lovren can play where he's used to playing. If that doesn't work, we need another right side CB in January.
Let's agree to differ. Skrtel was indeed pants against W.Ham but (a) so was most everybody else and (b) IMO we have to look beyond the one game. A Sakho/Lovren combo means Lovren has to stay on the right, where he'll be too busy trying to get used to that position to organise the whole defence, which was one big reason for buying him.
What a fucking mess we've made of that defence. Or rather, of trying to sort it out.
We've bought two very expensive LCBs, neither of them very good IMO, and who can't really play together. And our two RCBs are both poor as well.
What a disaster. It's starting to look like Rodgers is even more clueless at building a defence as Rafa was at building a creative attack.
We've bought two very expensive LCBs, neither of them very good IMO, and who can't really play together. And our two RCBs are both poor as well.
What a disaster. It's starting to look like Rodgers is even more clueless at building a defence as Rafa was at building a creative attack.
Can we bring Ilori back? I actually wouldn't mind trying a combination of Lovren-Ilori and see how that goes.
That, and Valdes as keeper and Can as DM.
-------------------------------Valdes
Manquillo-------Ilori/Skrtel----Lovren/Sakho------Moreno
------------------------------Can/Lucas
-------------------Henderson-------Allen/Lallana
----------------------------Coutinho/Gerrard
---------------Sturridge/Balotelli---------Sterling/Markovic
I'd like to see this as much as possible.
That, and Valdes as keeper and Can as DM.
-------------------------------Valdes
Manquillo-------Ilori/Skrtel----Lovren/Sakho------Moreno
------------------------------Can/Lucas
-------------------Henderson-------Allen/Lallana
----------------------------Coutinho/Gerrard
---------------Sturridge/Balotelli---------Sterling/Markovic
I'd like to see this as much as possible.
Here's Ilori's first game for Bordeaux. He seems to have bulked a bit, which is good to see.
He also strikes me as the sort of defender who likes to stay on his feet and push out, so at least he'd be on the same wavelength as Lovren. Valdes is the sort of keeper who'd encourage that as well with his sweeping and prowess off the line. A strong, mobile DM like Can would also be more conducive to that.
He also strikes me as the sort of defender who likes to stay on his feet and push out, so at least he'd be on the same wavelength as Lovren. Valdes is the sort of keeper who'd encourage that as well with his sweeping and prowess off the line. A strong, mobile DM like Can would also be more conducive to that.
I would definitely go for that at this stage. It's not like things can get any worse: at least with something like that you'd have the hope of it improving. Unfortunately it doesn't look like an option with Ilori out, but I'd definitely be bedding Can in as soon as he's back fit.
Mignolet is not good enough.
Louvren is not an upgrade on Agger.
Full backs look decent.
We should have bought a world class DM.
Gerrard is a huge problem for BR.
We have a lot of new guys finding their feet but the shirt already looks heavy on some of them.
We'll find a rhythm soon and will start playing better, we can't play worse.
We got away with it this weekend as other results were shit for top 4 chasers, except the pathetic spunk bubble that is Arsenal.
These players know know they are
a) in a scrap and need to pull their fucking socks up.
b) need to do it fucking quick.
Louvren is not an upgrade on Agger.
Full backs look decent.
We should have bought a world class DM.
Gerrard is a huge problem for BR.
We have a lot of new guys finding their feet but the shirt already looks heavy on some of them.
We'll find a rhythm soon and will start playing better, we can't play worse.
We got away with it this weekend as other results were shit for top 4 chasers, except the pathetic spunk bubble that is Arsenal.
These players know know they are
a) in a scrap and need to pull their fucking socks up.
b) need to do it fucking quick.
Valdes
Manquillo
Skrtel
Lovren
Moreno
Can
Henderson
Lallana
Sterling
Sturridge
Balotelli
I think that's our best team.
It's been said before, but too much has been made of this LCB vs RCB stuff. It does make a difference, but it doesn't suddenly lobotomise players when switched from one side to the other.
I didn't see the game, but was Skrtel poor? How did Sakho look when he came on? I've seen the goals, and while Sakho's header for the third was poor, there is no midfielder within 30 yards of where the ball lands.
We have a decision to make, and I thought Rodger's decision to bring Skrtel in for this game was disruptive on a number of fronts. Skrtel has been here for a long time now and, bar one or two seasons, never really convinced. However, we have signed Sakho and Lovren, both are young and have potential, and a good CB partnership needs time to work together. We know Skrtel isn't what we want. Sakho and Lovren might still turn out to be duds, but we need to give them a run of games together. Chopping and changing all the time will lead to... well, the type of defensive performances we put out on Saturday.
I didn't see the game, but was Skrtel poor? How did Sakho look when he came on? I've seen the goals, and while Sakho's header for the third was poor, there is no midfielder within 30 yards of where the ball lands.
We have a decision to make, and I thought Rodger's decision to bring Skrtel in for this game was disruptive on a number of fronts. Skrtel has been here for a long time now and, bar one or two seasons, never really convinced. However, we have signed Sakho and Lovren, both are young and have potential, and a good CB partnership needs time to work together. We know Skrtel isn't what we want. Sakho and Lovren might still turn out to be duds, but we need to give them a run of games together. Chopping and changing all the time will lead to... well, the type of defensive performances we put out on Saturday.
In terms of the original post... I was cagey in predicting 4th for us this season. From what I've seen so far, we have no grounds for optimism other than everybody else looks fucking shite too.
It may have been said before, Hal, but if so I didn't agree with it then and I still don't agree with it now. Saying it shouldn't make a difference is one thing, and in theory I might be tempted to agree with that, but in practice it clearly does. Even big Sami looked ordinary when he occasionally played RCB. Ditto Terry when he's had the odd outing there for Chavski. I agree that constant chopping and changing is not the way to go, but Sakho and Lovren *have* had a run of games and it hasn't helped either of them.
We often see a lot of right footed CBs playing on the left, but why do we not see any left footed CBs preferring the right? I do think it makes a difference, but not as much as people make out. It's a fairly recent thing for people to be getting hung up on this. In any case, perhaps Lovren is just not playing well because it's a dip in form? He did play RCB a lot in the past. As for Sakho and Lovren - they've played 3 games together... conceded 2. Skrtel comes in and we concede 2 in 7 minutes. Added to the fact that he's been here about 8 years and has never wowed anybody. I'd stick with Lovren and Sakho for a while longer.
I'm not sure if i'm the only one but the anticipation and enthusiasm at the beginning of this season has been replaced by nothing but a big bowl of 'meh'.
I guess i was quietly confident and expectant that at least one of the new signings will actually turn out to be world class, but there has been little signs of that happening. The best i'm hoping for now is that one of them will just turn out to be good, possibly Mario and/or Lallana. But great ? Nah.
I would, of course, be very glad to be proven wrong.
I guess i was quietly confident and expectant that at least one of the new signings will actually turn out to be world class, but there has been little signs of that happening. The best i'm hoping for now is that one of them will just turn out to be good, possibly Mario and/or Lallana. But great ? Nah.
I would, of course, be very glad to be proven wrong.
It does make a difference Hal. Some players like playing on the opposite side, it depends on all sorts of variables, some players just aren't that comfortable at it, it happens throughout, from grassroots to the top. Saying it "shouldn't" make a difference is naive, some players clearly aren't that good at playing both sides.
Sakho for me played well when he came on (apart from nearly killing Lovren), but he's got issues in terms of how good his touch is and how erratic he can be. His passing is good though and aerially he's dominating. Skrtel is probably the pick of the bunch and the most comfortable on the right, but he operates differently to Lovren, who pushed out and attacks the play. The problem with that, for all it's positive aspects, is that he gets caught a few times in games where he either gets outmuscled or just doesn't get there, then it creates a problem for the rest, because we are so open.
As many of us have said, we are making individual errors, but it's hard to judge how much of that is down to sloppy play, and how much is down to our overly expansive system. We need to find a balance in certain games, having only one way to play is making us look one dimensional, it's not taken long for teams to work out how to combat it. Then again, we are struggling with injury and we've lost the best player in the World. It'll take time to adjust.
Sakho for me played well when he came on (apart from nearly killing Lovren), but he's got issues in terms of how good his touch is and how erratic he can be. His passing is good though and aerially he's dominating. Skrtel is probably the pick of the bunch and the most comfortable on the right, but he operates differently to Lovren, who pushed out and attacks the play. The problem with that, for all it's positive aspects, is that he gets caught a few times in games where he either gets outmuscled or just doesn't get there, then it creates a problem for the rest, because we are so open.
As many of us have said, we are making individual errors, but it's hard to judge how much of that is down to sloppy play, and how much is down to our overly expansive system. We need to find a balance in certain games, having only one way to play is making us look one dimensional, it's not taken long for teams to work out how to combat it. Then again, we are struggling with injury and we've lost the best player in the World. It'll take time to adjust.
IMO Rodgers doesn't rate Sakho. I don't think he ever intended partnering Lovren with him.
I've got some sympathy for what you say about the RCB LCB fixation but tbf I read quite a few people in the summer warning that Lovren is significantly worse playing RCB so it's not solely a knee jerk thing.
I'm guessing Sakho will be up for sale next summer, and we'll hopefully bring Ilori back as Lovren's main partner. Or maybe he'll get another year as a squad player. Whatever, though, I'd be surprised if he has a long term future here.
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