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The verdict on Allen

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rurikbird

rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
With a few days to kill before the next match, let's talk about a player who hasn't been involved much recently – Joe Allen. Many of the players signed by Rodgers are still a work in progress and it will take some time to really get to know what they are capable of. Allen is not one of them – this is his 3rd season here and it's fairly clear by now what he is and what he is not. First, some stats:

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Season 2012/13:
According to transfermarkt website, out of 38 league games, Allen started 21 games (55%), came on as a sub in 6, was left on the bench in 3, and missed 8 though injury (21%). He scored 0 goals and contributed 0 assists.

Season 2013/14:
Out of 38 league games, Allen started 15 games (39%), came on as a sub in 9, was left on the bench in 6, and again missed 8 though injury (21%). He got 1 goal and 1 assist that season.

Current season:
Out of 21 league games so far, Allen started 7 games (33%), came on as a sub in 4, was left on the bench in 1, and already missed 9 through injury. He has contributed 1 assist.

Overall in his LFC career, Allen has started 44% of our league games and missed 26% of the league fixtures through injury. He has contributed 1 goal and 2 assists in the league in those 2 and a half seasons.
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Allow me to post some conclusions:

1. I think we need to retire the stupid "Welsh Xavi" moniker. Allen has nowhere near Xavi's playmaking ability, his ability to pick apart defenses with deft flicks and though-balls, his ability to get on the end of attacking moves when necessary. Allen is a safe passer, not a creative one. And his attacking numbers are a lot closer to those of Lucas than of Xavi.

2. Allen is a hard-working player with good technique, particularly useful for controlling possession in away games or home games against opponents who are not afraid to fight for possession at Anfield. Last season I remember a few games where I thought he was key to our midfield being able to subdue the opposition.

3. He almost always needs to be used in a system with 3 CMs. Most experiments with him in a two-prong midfield have failed. He can thrive only when someone else in midfield provides the physicality AND the creativity and goals. So in essence Allen is a player for a specific tactic and a specific situation – not somebody you build the team around.

4. He is somewhat injury-prone and definitely long recovery prone. He didn't have many injuries in his time here, but every time he was out it resulted in a longer layoff than originally projected. This is another reason why it's hard to build the team around him.

5. In hindsight £15M was above his real value. Both Allen and Borini purchases in the first transfer window showed Rodger's lack of experience as a buyer. He went for the familiar even though at LFC he was given the resources to attract the best talent from around the world.

Let me know your thoughts, whether you agree on all 5 points and what do you think the future holds for Allen at LFC.
 
One thing that's worth noting about Rodgers though is that he will change his mind on players if they do well. Skrtel and Henderson are testament to that, the latter was on his way with Allen arguably taking his place, but it just hasn't turned out that way. I agree he needs to be part of a midfield three, but then Rodgers does play with 3/4 midfielders, so the place is there. At times he's looked good, against Spurs last season when Gerrard was out, him and Lucas kept us tidy and ticking over in midfield, the momentum just kept going and going. Other times he's looked out of his depth and fairly anonymous.

As you say, it's three seasons now, so I don't think we can really say we have no worries about Joe Allen. He has had injuries, which explains his stop/start career with us, but when he has been available, he hasn't been able to string a run of good form together. Sometimes midfielders are difficult to judge, and picking out goals assists can be unfair, when they play so deep - people used to do the same with Alonso, who's stats weren't that great, because he would usually be starting the moves, rather than playing the final ball. But Alonso's technical ability and passing skills were there for all to see, you could see how he dictated games. Aside from being able to turn on a sixpense in the middle of the park, all we really get is industry and the simple pass. That might be enough, if people looked at him as the future in the anchor role and someone who could boss midfields from there, but that's not the impression I get with him.

I think this is a crucial season, if he doesn't push on this year, then we might see him heading for the exit door in the Summer.
 
15m was definitely an overpay and that was because it was Rodgers buying him and because of the Welsh Xavi hype that I don't think most people bought.

He's 24, I think it's make or break for him.
I've always said I thought his future was as a Scott Parker type and I think that's still the case.

He's not good enough to be the main man in our midfield but if he was inclined to he could easily be a very good second banana in the centre of the park. Focusing on the nuts and bolts of the game.

He could be a better version of Lucas
 
Well we certainly overpaid for him but he was a young British player coming off the back of a very good season so that was always likely to be the case. The Welsh Xavi thing is bizarre as hes not really a creative player at all, if you were to liken him to a Barca player (and its not really fair to do so) it would be Busquets as he functions more as the fulcrum of the team, constantly recycling short passes to keep the momentum ticking over.

Ive always thought he and Gerrard would never work together because their styles are diametrically opposed to each other and largely thats been the case. Id be interested to see how he would do in a midfield 3 with Henderson and Can doing the hard running. Im happy to have him in the squad as hes a useful player but hes never going to be a world beater even though he will improve
 
He's never going to be a regular in the 1st team so we either keep him as a squaddie or sell him and put the money towards someone better. Considering his susceptibility to injury ,and long recuperation periods, we'd be better off selling him. Plenty of good, powerful, midfielders out there.
 
He, like most of our midfielders, needs to learn to shoot

Allen is fantastic in a winning side, he's one of those players that seems to come out of his shell when we're playing better football but he doesn't seem like a strong enough character to do this himself a la Gerrard. He can turn in tight spaces and distribute the ball well but he can't change the tempo of the game

He reminds me of Alonso when he first came to the club, only Alonso became world class and Joe Allen looks like he could be playing for TNS sometimes
 
Alonso was useful defensively and creatively. I am still not really sure what Joe Allen is. He looks great sometimes keeping the ball moving and buzzing about giving the opposition little time but is that enough?
 
Ever since that sitter against Everton in that 3-3 match I find it hard to look at him. He couldn't score with a million dollars in Phuket. Rarely have I seen a player so timid in front of goal.
 
It's like Allen was a purchase for when Rodgers was going for the death by football approach, now he's moved away from that, Allen has become a little less useful. I still rate him and hope he stays, however he doesn't really fit in this 3-4-3 system, and he can't be more than a squad player currently.
 
What a pleasant surprise this thread is, a sensible discussion with lots of good points instead of the succession of "He's sh!te" exclamations I feared I'd find when I clicked on it.

The example of Coutinho is an encouraging one in this context IMO. He's more extravagantly gifted than Allen but IMO they both need players around them to be constantly on the move in order to perform at their respective best. Judging by Coutinho's recent form we're moving in the right direction for him, so I'm hopeful the same will apply to Allen in due course. It'll be an indictment of us if that doesn't happen, because he's a classy little player.
 
He has been part of some of the best displays I have seen in the BR era, including the two away wins at Spurs, where his closing down and ability to release players around him was not the eye catching part of the games, but essential to our tactics. I also can't forget his filling in at the base of the midfield at the opening of his career here where he was in our top 3 almost every week. He's not a creative midfielder (as certain members of the site described him when he arrived) but he can still offer something to our side. Beside Can in a midfield 2 in a 4-2-3-1, for instance, you could see him thriving. Still plenty of hope for me.
 
cloggypop said:
An unusual comparison.
Click to expand...


Although more atheltic than carrick, he is less likely to control the tempo of game.


Do think he is good squad player and little Unfortunete with the Welsh xabi tag sets expectations higher Than he will ever perfom
 
He's another player that realistically needs a run of games in the team. It would be great if he could blossom into a deep-lying playmaker but I'm not sure that will happen.
 
A couple seasons ago I kept waffling on about how Rodgers needed to decide where he wants to go with Allen and the midfield as a unit (as in my mind we needed to buy someone). Ultimately he decided to use Gerrard as a playmaker, which effectively ended any notion of the "Welsh Xavi" or Allen being an irreplaceable part of the team (though his fitness had no small part in that).

15M feels like a lot for what we ended up getting but I suppose these days it's not too out of whack with what young British players go for. 10M would've been fairer.

He's decent technically and tactically and seems to approach the game with the right attitude so he's a good player to have in the squad. The main plus point is that we bought him at the right age so provided he can stop getting injured for months on end every season you have to regard him as a solid investment.
 
Ryan calling him a Roll's Royce or whatever it was will always stick in my mind.

He's a useful squad player to have, and does a job, but we should definitely be looking for better.
 
Perhaps not, but the owners had just appointed a new manager and would have to support his first transfer wish list as far as poss, so we were always going to get charged a premium for whoever we went after.
 
Halmeister said:
Ryan calling him a Roll's Royce or whatever it was will always stick in my mind.

He's a useful squad player to have, and does a job, but we should definitely be looking for better.
Click to expand...

The only Rolls Royce in our midfield is Gerrard. The rest are your Fords and Toyotas and also whatever brand of automobile Lucas is.
 
I like him. He can be more progressive in his play, but I don't feel he's been given his head yet. In his first season he was either injured or filling in for Lucas. Last season he was still really used more as a utility midfielder than in a clearly defined and established role to best exploit his ability. He's valuable alone for that versatility and discipline, but I think there's much more to come from him.
 
Too lightweight for me. It's all about balance and the team, if he had big athletic players around him he might be fine but we have a side full of short arses who are better on the ball than him and he doesn't have the physicality to support them.

Good squad player and has his moments but gets caught in possession, knocked off the ball too easily and lacks a cutting edge to his game. Annoying that he suffers so many injuries as well, so can't be relied on.
 
What surprised me looking at the stats is that for Swansea Allen has been getting a lot more assists: 13 assists in 145 games compared to only 2 assists in 78 games for Liverpool. That tells me that perhaps Allen still didn't quite come out of his shell at Liverpool and is playing too cautiously compared to his time at Swansea. Or maybe he is used in a different role here where his attacking qualities are less needed.

In any case, Rodgers was his manager at Swansea as well, he is a fan and probably knows better than anyone in football how to get the best out of Allen. If Allen is not going to be starting games for Rodgers, there is even less chance of him being given an important role by any other manager.
 
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