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Bournemouth post-match

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I thought he had a good game, as I said in the post match stuff, but that video isn't spectacularly different to what the rest of our midfielders do, including Henderson. Plenty of relatively short and easy passes, a few punts forward that didn't come to anything, and a great pass for the OG, compounded with some decent interceptions and a few fouls. He's a natural DM and physically a monster, he's also great in the air and I think he'll be really good for us, but I don't really think that video is a great example of a "really good game".
I had to watch that again after reading your comments. I think if Hendo ever played a match with (yes I counted them all - 3 headers to feet counted, clearances not counted and tackles that fell to our players not counted) 20 forward passes, 3 sideways passes and 3 pass backs we'd be all over him for having an excellent attacking game. 20/26 passes were pushing us forward. Give me that over Hendo every single time.
 
I had to watch that again after reading your comments. I think if Hendo ever played a match with (yes I counted them all - 3 headers to feet counted, clearances not counted and tackles that fell to our players not counted) 20 forward passes, 3 sideways passes and 3 pass backs we'd be all over him for having an excellent attacking game. 20/26 passes were pushing us forward. Give me that over Hendo every single time.

I said he made alot of forward passes, not many of them (the more speculative ambitious ones) came to anything, not even possession being kept. He did however play a lovely pass for the OG, as I said. Hendo probably gives the ball away less, but is overly conservative with his passing. We all know that.

I counted too. He played 13 passes forward with his feet, 7 successful (four or five of which were less than 10 yards, one great nutmeg, the rest under little pressure), and 6 resulted in us losing possession. If you want to split hairs.

He's doing well, I just don't think that video is anything to be particularly wowed by, it's promising like but lets not start overstating things yet.
 
Feels a bit late to be doing RAAAAAATTTINNNNNGS but I had Christmas decorations to put up, so HOHOHO and here they are!

Unbeaten, top of the league, Qatar City losing (sadly to those cunts Chelsea, but you can't have everything) , Salah at his sinuous, swerving, razor-sharp best and yet another clean sheet. Oooh, yes please! This was a controlled and impressive performance, after a bit of a slow start, and we punished Bournemouth - and in particular the hapless Cook - mercilessly. The midfield is still a bit janky, but despite missing a gear here and there, it looked far more smooth in the second half.

Alisson (8) Another very sharp, solid and imposing display, as he smashed through anyone who got in his way, and even used his massive swede to clear the ball, after Milner's shanked clearance got us into trouble. What a signing.

Milner (7) Started a bit rustily in the right-back position, which is entirely understandable, and then simply got on with the job at hand. That's just Milner all over in his 500th game, or whatever it was: gets the job done.

Matip (8) Much-maligned and seldom trusted, old 50p head was very, very good. It was a relief that the dangerous qualities of Wilson were absent, but Matip's display suggested that wouldn't have been an issue. Aggressive in the tackle, positive in possession and carried the ball forward with confidence.

Virgil (8) Xerxes the God-King Centre Half

Robertson (8) Like his RB counterpart, he started a bit slowly and seemed a bit leggy, with Brooks lively and looking a threat. That didn't last long, as he dismantled Bournemouth in the second half, negated their attacking efforts and then laid waste to their defence with non-stop running, some great crosses and a lovely assist for Cook to flick in an audacious goal

Fabinho (7) Provided a really solid defensive platform and was always available for the CBs to pass to. Positive in his own passing too, and showed some sharp thinking and movement. Kept the pressure right on Bournemouth by snuffing out any trouble and then getting us back into their half quickly. Good stuff.

Wijnaldum (6) Had a horrible start, with some lethargic passing and seemed slow to react to situations. Much improved in the second half and moved the ball about well in an industrious display.

Keita (6) Looked one of our most likely players in the first half, and it was annoying that he didn't see more of the ball. He should really have demanded it, and that part of his game needs to be worked on, as he moved further away from the action. Some glimpses of his dazzling talent, but faded. It was inevitable he was getting subbed as just before he came off, Bournemouth attacked down the right and Keita was half-arsed in getting back and gave up. Off 5 minutes later.

Shaqiri (7) Pulled them all over the place with his movement, flicks and some impressive short and long passing. Still seems to promise a bit more than he actually delivers, but another good game. Been an inspired signing on the evidence so far.

Firmino (7) Much, much better. Busy, always involved and linked up play with his running, passing and vision. Has had a poor season so far, but this was more like it.

Salah (9) Or is it 10? Venomous performance of top quality finishing.
He was always running with purpose, and his ability to manipulate the ball at high speed was ruinous for the embattled Bournemouth defence, who just could not handle him at all. Brilliant.
 
I don't mind blue boots ... it puts us a level above bitter blues who refuse to recognise the existence of red as a colour

Er, yeah. We'd look a bit too "everton" if we started moaning about players wearing fucking blue boots.

Cf Koeman's fucking Xmas Tree.
 
Spot on that. Watching the game again, and Matip had a good game.
Agreed about Keita. I thought that through the first half when we struggled a bit to create something. He should have commanded the ball more and just stamped his mark on the game rather than being a bit anonymous. I guess that will come with time though.
 
Spot on that. Watching the game again, and Matip had a good game.
Agreed about Keita. I thought that through the first half when we struggled a bit to create something. He should have commanded the ball more and just stamped his mark on the game rather than being a bit anonymous. I guess that will come with time though.

I still think he looks a bit lightweight, I see that he gets stuck in and puts a boot in, but his frame and physique need to be worked on so he can be that bit more domineering in midfield. He doesn't demand the ball so much, but will track back (sometimes lazily) and will lay the ball off, rather than being the player who should be dictating the play. They're both getting there (him and Fabinho), but I've a feeling it will be the latter part of the season before we see the best of both of them.
 
I still think he looks a bit lightweight, I see that he gets stuck in and puts a boot in, but his frame and physique need to be worked on so he can be that bit more domineering in midfield. He doesn't demand the ball so much, but will track back (sometimes lazily) and will lay the ball off, rather than being the player who should be dictating the play. They're both getting there (him and Fabinho), but I've a feeling it will be the latter part of the season before we see the best of both of them.

Fabinho plays a position that may be less eye-catching and "match-winning" but demands consistency. If you play badly when you're a DM, we lose. We may not win if he plays well, but we WILL lose if he doesn't.

That perhaps presents a different sort of pressure to that of Keita, who is most definitely seen as the creative, attacking, ball-carrying component of the midfield, but he needs to be far more confident and demand the ball more.

If Fabinho can keep up his 7s and 8s, then I'll be well happy and he'll stay in the team.
 
Fabinho plays a position that may be less eye-catching and "match-winning" but demands consistency. If you play badly when you're a DM, we lose. We may not win if he plays well, but we WILL lose if he doesn't.

That perhaps presents a different sort of pressure to that of Keita, who is most definitely seen as the creative, attacking, ball-carrying component of the midfield, but he needs to be far more confident and demand the ball more.

If Fabinho can keep up his 7s and 8s, then I'll be well happy and he'll stay in the team.

Yeah he should do. It's quite reminiscent of Didi's early days really, another vital component in tightening up a defense that was previously pissing goals. You put him, VVD, Allison, Gomez (and Robbo) in our side and it changes the defensive complexity, we look much more solid and able to dominate, both aerially and on the deck. And none of them are slouches technically, which helps no end.
 
I said he made alot of forward passes, not many of them (the more speculative ambitious ones) came to anything, not even possession being kept. He did however play a lovely pass for the OG, as I said. Hendo probably gives the ball away less, but is overly conservative with his passing. We all know that.

I counted too. He played 13 passes forward with his feet, 7 successful (four or five of which were less than 10 yards, one great nutmeg, the rest under little pressure), and 6 resulted in us losing possession. If you want to split hairs.

He's doing well, I just don't think that video is anything to be particularly wowed by, it's promising like but lets not start overstating things yet.
The fact he lost the ball shows the risk he took with his passing.

What I liked more than anything in that video was the speed he made his passes. And the fact he was looking forward most of the time.

Some of the passes he made that were unsuccessful was because our forward players weren't expecting the ball and were a little slow to react.

Henderson takes 2 or 3 touches to bring the ball under control and then makes a forward pass.

There are times that he SEES the right pass forward in between 2 midfielders, into the forwards feet, but he BOTTLES IT and hesitates, and ends up having to play safe. Fabinho, takes 1 or 2 touches, and actually takes risk when he sees that same pass. So his pass completion rate will always be lower, but no risk, no reward.

Whilst I agree the video above doesn't show a spectacular game, it shows enough of what he does do well. I look the video above and look at a couple specific moments where I don't think Henderson executes the same.

0:18. Fabinho plays a first time, fade away, pass forward from a header back, with the outside of his boot to Salah. He was so confident in his execution, he immediately made a 2nd angle to give Salah a supporting option from behind. Hendo (imo) most likely would let that ball run across his body, and end up playing a pass back to Allison.

0:28. Fab plays a lovely weighted curling pass from the freekick into the channel for Mo. Hendo (imo) would see the movement from Mo, approach the ball as if he were going to make the pass and then stop and apologise to Mo, as he decided it was too much risk at that moment in the game, and end up playing ball into one of our FBs (either one, take your pick). The Bournemouth team and defence, would just slide across in perfect defensive shape and say "thank you Jordan" as they did.

0:51. Ball over the top into Mo. Even though I think it was slightly underhit from Fab (so Mo could run onto it), Jordan (imo) would most likely end up playing safe and out wide in that position. Or take 3 or 4 touches before playing that ball, by which time Mo would be coming back from an offside position.

1:30. Pass that splits Bournemouth's midfield line into Firmino. Again, I think (imo) Jordan sees too much risk in that pass and ends up playing short and safe.

1:44. Fabinho covers ground and blocks a cross from Fraser. Now there is no way Jordan, being so one paced nowadays, gets back at Fraser like that, which means VVD would have had to vacate his position of defending the near post, and Matip would have been left alone to deal with King (whose double movement looks to have beaten him there). The best Hendo (imo) would do in that situation is cover the space VVD left at the near post, if he's quick enough for that and Virgil could delay, or possibly, a cutback to the edge of the box, if he wasn't.

Look, i could go on and further into the video. I don't want to really disparage our captain. He's a decent player and good for games which we want to "kill". But I'm a sucker for technical players (the more Brazilian, the better), and Fabinho, whilst not being the greatest technician (hey, he's being a DM; not all are Alonso/Pirlo types), he does have the touch of a top PL level player. Henderson's first touch is more mid-table PL standard.

People talk about Gerrard's slip being the reason we didn't win the PL under Rodgers. I've always disagreed. I think we lost it against City, when Hendo's first touch let us all down and got himself sent off (never mind that twat Moses!):

 
Henderson was very good that season. Hasn't been anywhere near that level since
I agree. He was playing in the 2 CM spots of the 3, where he was the "legs" for both Joe Allen (slow coach) and Gerrard (who was the playmaking DM).

When we lost his legs in that midfield for those 3 games, we lost Gerrard's too.
 
Agreed - but he played as an almost fearless #8 / #10 at times, linking incredibly well with Suarez, Studge & Sterling. Since then, and after his injury we moved him to a deep lying DM (filling that weird role that Gerrard was playing in 13/14) rather than continue to see him thrive up the pitch.
 
I agree. He was playing in the 2 CM spots of the 3, where he was the "legs" for both Joe Allen (slow coach) and Gerrard (who was the playmaking DM).

When we lost his legs in that midfield for those 3 games, we lost Gerrard's too.

Joe Allen used to play for Liverpool.

Imagine!

I fucking hated Joe Allen.
 
Agreed - but he played as an almost fearless #8 / #10 at times, linking incredibly well with Suarez, Studge & Sterling. Since then, and after his injury we moved him to a deep lying DM (filling that weird role that Gerrard was playing in 13/14) rather than continue to see him thrive up the pitch.

After his injury, he lost his ability to cover ground effortlessly. He used to have the legs/engine of a Kante like player. And his endless running was he best ability then. It provided a good balance to the control and passing of Allen/Stevie.

After the injury, he had no choice but to revert to DM. We've fudged him there. And whilst he's adapted now, he's still not a top class DM, largely due to the fact, he was never supposed to be.

Fabinho is better defensively, technically and offensively. What Jordan beats him on is experience and leadership. But we've got VVD for the leadership part now, and Milner for the experience. I think Jordan's days are numbered somewhat, if Klopp really wants to win titles.
 
Joe Allen used to play for Liverpool.

Imagine!

I fucking hated Joe Allen.

I liked the idea of Joe Allen, but hated the player after he left.

Simply because he was spineless. The safest ball playing "creative" CM in history. He took very little risk.

Oh and because of that Everton miss (which would have given us 2 more pts in tightly contested title race):



Just summed him up really. He was a coward.
 
Henderson was great because he was playing in his natural position that season. I've said it for years now that Henderson is a CM never a DM.
 
I said he made alot of forward passes, not many of them (the more speculative ambitious ones) came to anything, not even possession being kept.
You need to watch that again 20/20 passes were successful, not one went astray.
 
I liked the idea of Joe Allen, but hated the player after he left.

Simply because he was spineless. The safest ball playing "creative" CM in history. He took very little risk.

Oh and because of that Everton miss (which would have given us 2 more pts in tightly contested title race):



Just summed him up really. He was a coward.


I liked Ryan's idea of Joe Allen.
 
He didn't get me excited.

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I thought he had a good game, as I said in the post match stuff, but that video isn't spectacularly different to what the rest of our midfielders do, including Henderson. Plenty of relatively short and easy passes, a few punts forward that didn't come to anything, and a great pass for the OG, compounded with some decent interceptions and a few fouls. He's a natural DM and physically a monster, he's also great in the air and I think he'll be really good for us, but I don't really think that video is a great example of a "really good game".

In this era, there is no place for a DM who doesn't contribute to the attack. Just look at what Fernandinho brings.

What I like about Fab is he is always looking up trying to play it. He also makes himself available in those tight areas in an offensive part of midfield, not just in that hole in front of our defenders. Every midfielder needs to add to the attack, needs to defend their areas and needs to run their lungs out. We are shortchanging ourselves if we have midfielders solely to play as a DM and not being a threat in attack at all, ala Hendo.

We cannot beat Citeh to the title with passengers in any department.
 
We cannot beat Citeh to the title with passengers in any department.


I think most would agree in comparison to Citeh:

GKs are very similar level.
Defence, we might actually shade it, although it's equal when they have both Mendy/Kompany fit.
Forward line is very similar quality in terms of output.

It's in the midfield where are so far behind them. I'd like to think in a year's time Fabinho will be of a similar class to Fernandinho. And Keita will be on the same level as a KDB in a Kante like role (basically considered top class).

That means we'd still be lacking a David Silva-eque player, who's a bit of a PL legend. But, they are out there, as Bernardo Silva has shown this year.
 
I think most would agree in comparison to Citeh:

GKs are very similar level.
Defence, we might actually shade it, although it's equal when they have both Mendy/Kompany fit.
Forward line is very similar quality in terms of output.

It's in the midfield where are so far behind them. I'd like to think in a year's time Fabinho will be of a similar class to Fernandinho. And Keita will be on the same level as a KDB in a Kante like role (basically considered top class).

That means we'd still be lacking a David Silva-eque player, who's a bit of a PL legend. But, they are out there, as Bernardo Silva has shown this year
.

When we have Chamberlain back, with Shaq, and with Keita and Fabinho bedded in, we may not be so very far behind as you imagine. David Silva is just an absolutely ridiculous player, of course, and there are very few like him. The best between the lines AM in the PL era? Probably.
 
I wonder if David Silva is at risk of burn out this season. With KDB injured he’s played a lot of minutes. We can only hope
 
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