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English Cricket/ *The Ashes*!

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SummerOnions

SummerOnions

Let's Push Things Forward
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Is looking pretty rosy.

We just destroyed a Pakistan side that made a mockery of Australia, and Jimmy Anderson is looking like one of the best swing bowlers in the world.

Anyone reckon we might do well Down Under for once then?
 
Re: English Cricket

No. Ball doesn't swing down there, and it's the ball behaviour that has led to much of this summer's carnage.
 
Re: English Cricket

I don't agree with that. England will take a lot of confidence from their performances, and indeed from those of the Aussies when Pakistan rolled them over. Nobody's ever daft enough to take Australia lightly, especially out there, but I do think we have a decent chance this time.
 
Re: English Cricket

We have a chance because they've come back to the pack (even fallen behind perhaps), but the wickets down under are flat and Anderson will be the first to admit he is nowhere near as potent with a ball that doesn't swing. Generally, England struggle in conditions different to 'typical' English cricket conditions. We've seen teams who have taken wickets in England go down there are have real difficulties. I think taking 20 wickets will be a struggle for them. Especially as some of our bowlers can be inconsistent with line and length. I like Finn, and he can take good wickets without swing, but it might be a little early for him.
 
Re: English Cricket

Obviously the conditions have played a significant part this summer. I can see us struggling to bowl Australia out in more batsmen-friendly conditions - and if we persist with 4 bowlers we may have some long days in the field. Maybe it'll be a close series, but my expectations are not high.
 
Re: English Cricket

Ive completely changed my stance on this for this ashes tour but I really think we need to go with 5 bowlers, due to the heat and flatness of the pitch.

My one problem with how well were playing at the moment is that were not even having to roll out the full armoury in Plan A, let alone looking at Plan B's and finesseing them (getting backup bowlers some overs under their belts - the Pietersens, Collingwoods....and when picked Boparas, etc).

Swann is first name in, no questions asked. Admittedly Anderson will get little swing (but the Kookaburra does/can for around 15 overs). Then he'll have to become Mr Line and Length. Finn because of his height will get some bounce but is probably 5 miles an hour below being terrifying, and a couple of years short of landing it on the dot every time. Broad will be the mix-it-up merchant and will have to watch how many tantrums he has.

Then who? Bresnan is pretty pedestrian, but is a tryer and will keep on coming (and can bat). Shahzad looks sharp and trys hard, but he's inexperienced and skiddy (which can get decimated on flat pitches). I guess they will also look at the fitness/form of Onions (but he looks like a solid 4 an over on Aussie tracks), Mahmood and Tremlett, and the young Yorks spinner.

Is Yardy an outside bet? Not too much spin, but very controlled and can certainly bat.
 
Re: English Cricket

Anyone coming over for the Ashes?

I think this will be the closest Ashes over here for some time. Could be very interesting.
 
Re: English Cricket

[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=41229.msg1146301#msg1146301 date=1280663682]
Is looking pretty rosy.

We just destroyed a Pakistan side that made a mockery of Australia, and Jimmy Anderson is looking like one of the best swing bowlers in the world.

Anyone reckon we might do well Down Under for once then?
[/quote]

Pakistan didn't make a mockery of Australia, they drew a 2 match series.
The problem with Pakistan is they are inconsistant as fudge, they are matches where they just click somehow and show their potential and other times when they clearly can not be arsed.
England look good and it will be interesting in Australia, but base it on their consistancy over the past year or so not on the drubbing of a lackluster Pakistan side
 
Re: English Cricket

You cannot make much out of Pakistan's results.

Pakistan has always had a very strong bowling unit (The current pace attack is not actually that strong though). On their day, in the right condition, they can run through almost any batting order. Like they did against Australia.

On the other hand, their batting lets them down in almost 2 out of 3 games they play.

As a result their performance has always been filled with ups and downs.

So you see i have a problem with logic like Pakistan demolished Australia in a one off game, and England demolished Pakistan => So in conclusion England has a chance of winning the Ashes.

Beating Australia in Australia is easier said than done. They still have great bowlers and batsmen. They may have come close to the pack, but i think they are still the No.1 team followed closely by South Africa and then Sri Lanka. If it was only about batting, India would be top of the chart, but it's not and India's bowling and fielding stinks. So i would put England and India tied as contenders for the 4th best Test Cricket team spot.

The Test ranking system at present is flawed. I don't see how India is feared by other teams, to have them as the number 1 team. But its based on results, and having a consistent batting line up helps eek out results. If not for Sehwag, India will not be getting the results they have obtained in the last few years.
 
Re: English Cricket

I wouldn't say Sri Lanka are a better test side than England, in fact, no chance. And England just went drew a series in SA, didn't they, after winning a series at home to SA. so you'd have to say there is little between them. I do think without the swinging ball the Aussies will be tougher to beat, but I think England have the talent to do it. They're one big consistent quickie away from having the undisputed top test team.
 
Re: English Cricket

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=41229.msg1146949#msg1146949 date=1280759404]
I wouldn't say Sri Lanka are a better test side than England, in fact, no chance. And England just went drew a series in SA, didn't they, after winning a series at home to SA. so you'd have to say there is little between them. I do think without the swinging ball the Aussies will be tougher to beat, but I think England have the talent to do it. They're one big consistent quickie away from having the undisputed top test team.
[/quote]

I would disagree. England also needs to considerably strengthen the batting to be up there. Most teams have a better all-rounder and a better wicket keeper batsman than England's first choice. So England does not have the balance.

That is exactly why they choose to go with 4 bowlers and 7 batsmen* (including your WK, who is not a great bat by any stretch of imagination). This may work in England, but will expose England's weakness in hotter places where the swing is not making life easy for your bowlers. One genuine quick, a settled opening pair and Flintoff would make England an undisputed number 1 team. Pity he has retired from test cricket. England is pretty much in the chasing pack with England and Srilanka. The problem though is that Australia and SA are not that far ahead so everybody else feels like they have a fighting chance to actually claim the number one spot. England is indeed in a good run of form.

*4 bowlers and 7 batsmen works for India though, because 5 batsmen in the top order average 50+ in test cricket, and they can't even field four good bowlers. One or two in the first choice 4 is usually a pie-chucker. One more pie-chucker is not going to make much difference. But thats not the case for England.
 
Re: English Cricket

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41229.msg1146977#msg1146977 date=1280763427]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=41229.msg1146949#msg1146949 date=1280759404]
I wouldn't say Sri Lanka are a better test side than England, in fact, no chance. And England just went drew a series in SA, didn't they, after winning a series at home to SA. so you'd have to say there is little between them. I do think without the swinging ball the Aussies will be tougher to beat, but I think England have the talent to do it. They're one big consistent quickie away from having the undisputed top test team.
[/quote]

I would disagree. England also needs to considerably strengthen the batting to be up there. Most teams have a better all-rounder and a better wicket keeper batsman than England's first choice. So England does not have the balance. But England are stronger in other areas

That is exactly why they choose to go with 4 bowlers and 7 batsmen* (including your WK, who is not a great bat by any stretch of imagination). This may work in England, but will expose England's weakness in hotter places where the swing is not making life easy for your bowlers. One genuine quick, a settled opening pair and Flintoff would make England an undisputed number 1 team. Pity he has retired from test cricket. England is pretty much in the chasing pack with England and Srilanka. The problem though is that Australia and SA are not that far ahead so everybody else feels like they have a fighting chance to actually claim the number one spot. England is indeed in a good run of form.

*4 bowlers and 7 batsmen works for India though, because 5 batsmen in the top order average 50+ in test cricket, and they can't even field four good bowlers. One or two in the first choice 4 is usually a pie-chucker. One more pie-chucker is not going to make much difference. But thats not the case for England. Maybe not, but England is far superior in it's bowling
[/quote]
I don't think you really countered Doctor Mac at all there. For me, Australia are still #1 (and I do not expect to beat them - or even come particularly close when playing at their venues), but there's no other country ahead of England at the moment.
 
Re: English Cricket

[quote author=Mersey86 link=topic=41229.msg1147152#msg1147152 date=1280778954]

but there's no other country ahead of England at the moment.
[/quote]

How so?

Are you talking in terms of Results? Then India and SL have the results over the ranking period, and India are on top of the ICC ranking as a result. How do you dispute that? India went and did well against England home and Away too.

Are you talking in terms of the strength of playing Squad? If that is the case i just highlighted my reasons to not consider England as the best of the rest.
1. No balance as a result of poor all-rounders and wicket keeper batsmen.
2. Fragile opening pair - how many openers have you tried on till recently?
3. Overall the batting order gets exposed time and time again by good spin bowing.
4. You go with 7-4 because you have no confidence in your batting unit. Not because you have 4 world class bowlers, that you can get away with not having a fifth bowler. England also has a history of producing pie-throwers who are only effective in English conditions. I don't see how this lot is so much ahead of the pack. I would put money on them getting hammered in Australia.


In fact South Africa has the players. Dale Steyn, Morkell and Parnell is a brilliant attack. I doubt England has one bowler who can measure up to Dale Steyn. In non-English conditions, most batting teams would not be that worried about facing the English attack. Saffers bat till about number 10. They have a counter attacking wicket-keeper bat who has proved it over the years what a valuable asset he is to the team. He may be retiring soon, but he is still a hell of a lot better than what England has got to offer. Their weakness is the inconsistency of the latest crop of batsmen such as Duminy.


In terms of talent of the playing squad, i would order them as below

Australia and South Africa. (No clear winner for me)

Followed by

England, SriLanka and India. (Each have their strengths and weakness but no clear winner. If pushed, i would pick Sri Lanka. They have a very good bowling attack with Lasith Malinga, Dilharo Fernando and Walegedra, and then you have Mendis. Mendis is no Murali but he is a hell of a spin bowler. They have some bench strength in the bowling department too. To top that they have a good batting line-up. Jaya and Sanga are two proper batting stalwarts. They have a very settled opening pair. They also have the best wicket-keeper going around. He is no mug with the bat either. )


rest of the lot...Pakistan and NewZealand get special mention as they can upset the above, if things go their way.
 
Re: English Cricket

Good posts all round chaps.
I dont think we have a prayer in Australia. As always we will go in as massive underdogs. And rightly so. No clouds and low pressure = No swing.
It was exactly the same in 2007 after a wonderful 2005 ashes with Jones doing magical things with the ball (as Anderson has against Pakistan) we go out there and have no wicket taking bowlers in sunny flat conditions. We will lose the ashes again im sure of it and the worst thing is this Australia side is really distinctly average. But they play their strengths out there and without a bowler who can take wickets in those conditions we will struggle to take 20 per test.
I agree with Grjt we need to take 5 bowlers. For me id take two spinners and 3 seamers.
This would be my five without doubt.
Anderson - Line and lenght and consistency
Broad - The one who on his day can vary it up and take wickets
Sidebottom - Im a sucker for him because he rubs the oppo up the wrong way. He's an old fashioned in your face, glare you down type of bowler who will hit the popping crease all day long and if it clouds get some decent swing.
Swann - He's the best bowler in the world right now for me. And he's handy with the bat.
Yardy - He can vary pace and get a lick of drift but most importantly he can bat too.
Its a five man attack but it also means we bat all the way to 10. I would also take Luke Wright as i like his attitude and he can get wickets.

I think there will be draws applenty with neither attack all that potent. Ours because were away and their sbecause it just isnt all that.

2-0 to Australia.
 
Re: English Cricket

I'd be looking to take a less injury-prone bowler than sidebottom, and i'd definitely be looking at Smith from Lancashire, who looks a cracking all rounder.
 
Re: English Cricket

there is no doubt when the ball is swinging any team would struggle to play us at home. The ashes win against a top Aussie team in 2005 was all down to aussies struggling with the swing of hoggard and the reverse swing at pace from fred and jones

I am less bothered about us smacking the pakistan team than I am celebrating the find of Steve Finn, he looks superb and looks like he will still get wickets on a pacey but not swinging pitch in the winter.

I bet Onions and Sidebottom will struggle to get back in this attack, especially if we continue with only 3 quicks.

Shame for Swan that he has hardly had a bowl this series but that is the conditions

exciting to watch though ;D
 
Re: English Cricket

[quote author=Fox link=topic=41229.msg1149671#msg1149671 date=1281112346]
there is no doubt when the ball is swinging any team would struggle to play us at home. The ashes win against a top Aussie team in 2005 was all down to aussies struggling with the swing of hoggard and the reverse swing at pace from fred and jones

I am less bothered about us smacking the pakistan team than I am celebrating the find of Steve Finn, he looks superb and looks like he will still get wickets on a pacey but not swinging pitch in the winter.

I bet Onions and Sidebottom will struggle to get back in this attack, especially if we continue with only 3 quicks.

Shame for Swan that he has hardly had a bowl this series but that is the conditions

exciting to watch though ;D
[/quote]

Steve Finn looks like a quality bowler. Certainly not a pie thrower. He should work on adding a bit of pace. With his height, he can be deadly.
 
Re: English Cricket

India just defeated Sri Lanka at P Sara. Not many teams have achieved that.

Brilliant batting by Laxman and Tendulkar.

It really is a beast of a batting order.
 
Re: English Cricket

going to be an interesting game tomorrow, if they can get another 20-30 then getting 140-150 is not going to be straight forward with the Pakistani spinner with his tail up.

Swan should have come one sooner. It is so nice to finally have a world class spinner rather than the blockers we have had for the last 20 years, (bar a bit of tuffers).

Used to love watching Edmonds and Embers bowling at tandem yrs ago
 
Re: English Cricket

Essex paid Dwayne Bravo £10,000 for a one-off appearance for them in the Twenty/20 finals.

When Bravo batted against Hampshire he was stupidly run out for 5.

When he bowled he was hit for 46 in his 4 overs. ;D

I thought that served Essex right because although what they did was within the rules, it didn't seem very sporting to sign a player just for one game. Hampshire on the other hand showed how to succeed in cricket without abandoning your principles. They stuck with the youngsters who had got them to the finals, and left out Kevin Pietersen because he has been fucking them about.

I was delighted Hampshire won and will be supporting them in the final tonight. :)
 
Re: English Cricket

Last time Punter said that he was proved right, so it's best not to react except by playing great cricket and beating the twats. ;D
 
Re: English Cricket

[quote author=Portly link=topic=41229.msg1155863#msg1155863 date=1282001007]
Last time Punter said that he was proved right, so it's best not to react except by playing great cricket and beating the twats. ;D
[/quote]

I'd be happy with a 2-2 draw down under... lets face it, we go to pieces down there every single time
 
Re: English Cricket

I'm not sure if it is even worth taking Jimmy Anderson to Australia. He can be devastating on English wickets when the ball is swinging, but in Australia he will probably get spanked all round the grounds. Finn and Broad should be OK because they tend to bang the ball in and don't rely on swing for their wickets.
 
Re: English Cricket

Anderson's accuracy and consistency could be useful though, especially if we hit a rocky patch at some stage. Bowlers like he can be the cricketing equivalent of the Chinese water torture for the opposition if they're on their game.

Besides, I'm not convinced Australia are equipped to make mincemeat of our attack in that way. There's something not quite right about the way Ponting's thrown the gauntlet down this time. It could yet be a bluff to cover up for a degree of apprehension.
 
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