Klopp Needs To Loook At Himself

[Markeh]

@Markeh. I wonder whether it's a question of ability to fund or a question of willingness to do so but, if by "we" you mean us lot on here, the answer is: way too often. The number of SCM posters who come out with that penny-in-the-slot kneejerk reaction is just unreal. Do those who say that really think Klopp can't see what they can see?

It’s part of being a manager isn’t it, seeing the bigger picture and using the hand you’re dealt. It’s just not possible to rip everything up and build your dream team no matter who owns the club.

If Klopp secretly thinks half the squad is useless but dresses it up as loyalty and doesn’t bitch about money he’s being a great manager. Maybe he’s too good at this and that’s why he gets grief from the fans.

For what it’s worth i don’t think FSG are willing or able, there’s a cell in a spreadsheet somewhere that turns red when we spend too much. The franchise has targets to meet after all.

 

[King Binny]

 

[Farkmaster]

The thing is, Klopp is addressing the issues the team is facing, they just introduce more issues. It's the too-small blanket thing, except the hole is in the centre of the blanket and is massive.

We keep getting reamed down our right because Salah never tracked back like Mane and is doing so even less. Used to be we'd slide over the midfield but they aren't mobile enough to cover. So, Trent is playing deeper and crossing from deeper. This has actually solved some of that issue. Except now the space is for a ball between the lines when play breaks down, followed by a through ball. AND trent isn't overlapping Salah, so not only are the crosses less effective, Salah doesn't have anyone to play off on that side. Trent has been more diligent defensively but it's easy to overload that side because of how out of position we find ourselves and how easily we lose possession.

We absolutely needed to buy another attacker given our situation. I don't understand people bringing that up. Was it an either-or? If so, both choices were wrong and we're back to the blanket again.

I'm much more worried about Salah than Nunez longer term. At worst, Nunez is a loss we can cut. Salah we're stuck with, and he's only very successful playing in one way. Imagine slower Salah.

 

[King Binny]

Missing big chances + conceding big chances

"Liverpool have let in the opening goal in 10 out of 17 league matches."

 

[Modo]

Are we above playing games just to get a draw or smash and grab us a win?

 

[Farkmaster]

Are we above playing games just to get a draw or smash and grab us a win?

We are shit off the ball and have two strikers who are in horrible form and require lots of chances.

 

[tomasjj]

Here is a good article from the times and paul joyce on our troubles:

https://archive.ph/epNg9#selection-4987.0-4987.361

 

[StevieM]

Here is a good article from the times and paul joyce on our troubles:

https://archive.ph/epNg9#selection-4987.0-4987.361

I’m going to give you a like for that because it’s saying, more eloquently, what I was saying yesterday - the problem starts with out forward press.

I looked at the same stats Modo was using to convince everyone that Harvey Elliot was a poor midfielder - except I looked across all our forward players.

We know that Firmino is a pressing monster - his defensive contribution as a striker is almost off the charts. Jota and Mane also featured strongly in tacking & blocking.

Salah, Diaz and Nunez, not so good.

That’s all based on stats over the last year - so it’ll include Nunez & Diaz playing in Portugal and Mane in Germany.

It does suggest that we’ve lost a bit of our pressing intent, in terms of the personnel.

Incidentally, Gakpo has done well in terms of interceptions at PSV.

What I don’t know is whether it’s purely down to new players coming in or Klopp, as suggested in the article above, has purposely moved away from a intense pressing style - is it a change necessitated by the players pressing capabilities or are we trying to “learn” a new system that we don’t have the players required to deliver it effectively.

What I mean is - if we’re not going to press effectively high up the pitch, then our midfield needs to be better at breaking up opposition attacks - which it clearly isn’t.

So, the question remains, why have we abandoned our high pressing game this season?

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

i'm training to be a data scientist and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the main issue has always been.

We're simply not working as hard as before. That's really it. It's obvious from game 1 of the season. And the stats are showing it too. We don't run, press, tackle as hard as we used to. WE WERE EFFING FAMOUS FOR GEGENPRESSING !

These days, we play like we're dancing on ice. From heavy metal to ballad dancers.

And there's good reason why we're playing like we have no more strength to run, chase down every ball, and fight. Lack of legs. Injuries. Mental fatigue. Short of midfielders.

Almost every fan can see it. 6CM has analysed this to death.

I don't think the club is being blind to it either. They saved enough money to buy Tchouaméni, failed. Changed their target to Jude instead. But his price soared. So the club now is left in a quandary whether to risk and wait for summer, hoping they'll have managed to scrounge every penny available enough to buy Jude

OR forget about waiting and buy a stop-gap midfielder instead - with their fingers crossed that he could spring a surprise or two and be more than a capable alternative than Jude. But they haven't found that player yet, or maybe they have, but greedy agents are milking every bit of Liverpool's desperation and thus, delaying negotiations.

I suspect that's what's really happening behind the scenes. Klopp has made numerous veiled, public frustrations indirectly to the owners via the media. And i think that's why we're hearing rumours of a takeover or new investment, etc. The reality is we simply don't have enough to compete in the transfer market with the big boys.

 

[StevieM]

i'm training to be a data scientist and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the main issue has always been.

We're simply not working as hard as before. That's really it. It's obvious from game 1 of the season. And the stats are showing it too. We don't run, press, tackle as hard as we used to. WE WERE EFFING FAMOUS FOR GEGENPRESSING !

These days, we play like we're dancing on ice. From heavy metal to ballad dancers.

And there's good reason why we're playing like we have no more strength to run, chase down every ball, and fight. Lack of legs. Injuries. Mental fatigue. Short of midfielders.

Almost every fan can see it. 6CM has analysed this to death.

I don't think the club is being blind to it either. They saved enough money to buy Tchouaméni, failed. Changed their target to Jude instead. But his price soared. So the club now is left in a quandary whether to risk and wait for summer, hoping they'll have managed to scrounge every penny available enough to buy Jude

OR forget about waiting and buy a stop-gap midfielder instead - with their fingers crossed that he could spring a surprise or two and be more than a capable alternative than Jude. But they haven't found that player yet, or maybe they have, but greedy agents are milking every bit of Liverpool's desperation and thus, delaying negotiations.

I suspect that's what's really happening behind the scenes. Klopp has made numerous veiled, public frustrations indirectly to the owners via the media. And i think that's why we're hearing rumours of a takeover or new investment, etc. The reality is we simply don't have enough to compete in the transfer market with the big boys.

A data scientist you say - what’s the metric used to determine how hard a tackle is and whether we’re not tackling as hard as we gave before.

Running around less is a dodgy metric - if you possess the football more and more - then you shouldn’t run around as much.

I get the gist though - we’ve definitely changed - the question is why and “don’t have the legs anymore” butter very few parsnips m, as far as I’m concerned.

 

[aquaman4]

I really really really believe if we play a back three and wing backs with two holding midfielders we need to buy them then everything sorts itself . Salah and Nunez top two and one creative midfielder we have him Thiago behind them or Gackpo could be the one and just watch us fly . 3-4-1-2 formation . No need for wingers Arnold and Robertson always occupy the flanks upfront anyway and they won't need to be exposed at the back when they lose the ball.

 

[aquaman4]

The Brentford coach actually mentioned in the interview pre-match that they will target to expose our high line with the forwards they have. That's why we always have to come back from being one or two goals down in the first half all teams target the spaces between the center backs when we push the line higher.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

A data scientist you say - what’s the metric used to determine how hard a tackle is and whether we’re not tackling as hard as we gave before.

Running around less is a dodgy metric - if you possess the football more and more - then you shouldn’t run around as much.

I get the gist though - we’ve definitely changed - the question is why and “don’t have the legs anymore” butter very few parsnips m, as far as I’m concerned.

There's a graph somewhere in the article shared by tomas that shows how much we've lost intensity. Imagine showing that graph to Pep Linjnders.

Like i said, it's not rocket science. You don't need anymore metrics. Just turn on the tele and watch the next time we play. That's your bloody data right there.

Did you watch the WC final ? The French team spent 80+ mins having a walkabout and they were losing. But they have Mbappe to bail them out. Unfortunately we've got the donkey.

I just feel we aren't working hard as we used to anymore. Nobody knows exactly why. I can only guess. Maybe it's cos the seniors have won everything in the game, and they think 70% effort max is good enough. Trent this season for instance, thinks his 30% is still better than most of the league.

I don't care if we have new owners who'll pump billions to build a team of galacticos. If they don't work hard, they'll still lose. Basic fact of life.

Are they lazy arses ? I don't think so either. Klopp's the sort who wouldn't allow it. And you've also got to be careful managing injuries. Maybe the seniors are showing signs of wear and tear and we simply need new legs. Quality, sexy ones.

 

[keniget]

Anyways, thread needs renaming now.

Klopp Lijnders Needs To Loooooook at Himself.

 

[King Binny]

Missing big chances + conceding big chances

"Liverpool have let in the opening goal in 10 out of 17 league matches."

Conceded first in 13 of our 26 games, keeping only 4 clean sheets (same stage last season = 10 clean sheets).

Not kept a clean sheet since 19 Oct, 7 matches ago.

 

[binomial]

We need a Klopp to stay or Klopp out poll.

For the lols if nothing else.

 

[dogboy]

We need a Klopp to stay or Klopp out poll.

For the lols if nothing else.

Piss off.

 

[binomial]

Piss off.

RUDE

 

[StevieM]

The Brentford coach actually mentioned in the interview pre-match that they will target to expose our high line with the forwards they have. That's why we always have to come back from being one or two goals down in the first half all teams target the spaces between the center backs when we push the line higher.

Yeah that high line really fucked us while we were conceding goals from corners, passing it out of our own box or man-mountain Konate going down like a glass of fabulous Tasmanian Pinot Noir over a touch as light as a gentle cooling summer breeze.

 

[Judge Jules]

Konate was pushed in the back (which is a foul and should be penalised, end of story) and a player of his size running at speed is going to make a splash going over when that happens. No point in us fans criticising referees for inconsistency when we ourselves pick and choose when or when not to bother with the rules,

 

[StevieM]

Konate was pushed in the back (which is a foul and should be penalised, end of story) and a player of his size running at speed is going to make a splash going over when that happens. No point in us fans criticising referees for inconsistency when we ourselves pick and choose when or when not to bother with the rules,

come on JJ - if every bit of contact like that constitutes a foul the we may as well cancel football because every player on the planet is going down the minute someone breathes in their general direction.

That was weak as piss from Konate - he had a ‘mare all game.

If that had been us at the death instead to level it at 2-2 and it was ruled out - you’d have put your foot through old faithful.

 

[mark1975]

I’m going to give you a like for that because it’s saying, more eloquently, what I was saying yesterday - the problem starts with out forward press.

I looked at the same stats Modo was using to convince everyone that Harvey Elliot was a poor midfielder - except I looked across all our forward players.

We know that Firmino is a pressing monster - his defensive contribution as a striker is almost off the charts. Jota and Mane also featured strongly in tacking & blocking.

Salah, Diaz and Nunez, not so good.

That’s all based on stats over the last year - so it’ll include Nunez & Diaz playing in Portugal and Mane in Germany.

It does suggest that we’ve lost a bit of our pressing intent, in terms of the personnel.

Incidentally, Gakpo has done well in terms of interceptions at PSV.

What I don’t know is whether it’s purely down to new players coming in or Klopp, as suggested in the article above, has purposely moved away from a intense pressing style - is it a change necessitated by the players pressing capabilities or are we trying to “learn” a new system that we don’t have the players required to deliver it effectively.

What I mean is - if we’re not going to press effectively high up the pitch, then our midfield needs to be better at breaking up opposition attacks - which it clearly isn’t.

So, the question remains, why have we abandoned our high pressing game this season?

I said this elsewhere, but I don't think we've deliberately abandoned it, I think Salah is far from his energetic best, Nunez presses alot more now than he did at first and he defends more and better in and around our box - he's getting there. The other issue is we're then not playing with an orthodox 3rd forward, so it's been a mixture of Ox, Elliott or Carvalho (for the most part). Ox was the midfielder who always had the shackles loosened a bit, he would benefit from two tough midfielders behind him from Hendo, Gini, Milner and then Fabs. Elliott and Fabio are both physically lightweight. They might press, but they don't win possession as much as more experienced and senior players can/have. It'll probably come for them, but they are young and it's a learning curve coupled with a physical development one.

I really don't think it's a conscious, purposeful shift, I just think we're at a transitional point and too many things are new/old/developing at the same time.

 

[Hansern]

come on JJ - if every bit of contact like that constitutes a foul the we may as well cancel football because every player on the planet is going down the minute someone breathes in their general direction.

That was weak as piss from Konate - he had a ‘mare all game.

If that had been us at the death instead to level it at 2-2 and it was ruled out - you’d have put your foot through old faithful.

Its a foul every day of the week and its been the case for the last 20 years. You see softer fouls given every game with players falling over the ball after the slightest of touches. Italian defenders have made this their forte as we all know.
Konate was running at full speed and pushed in the back. Its a foul.

In yesterdays game between Palace and Spurs Hojbjerg got about 5 free kicks from softer fouls in the back than Konates push.

The problem is no consistency among refs. You expect a foul after seeing this given in every game but Atwell obviously has another idea. They need to agree on what line of refereeing should apply for everyone and every game.

 

[Hansern]

Konate was pushed in the back (which is a foul and should be penalised, end of story) and a player of his size running at speed is going to make a splash going over when that happens. No point in us fans criticising referees for inconsistency when we ourselves pick and choose when or when not to bother with the rules,

Agreed.

 

[StevieM]

Its a foul every day of the week and its been the case for the last 20 years. You see softer fouls given every game with players falling over the ball after the slightest of touches. Italian defenders have made this their forte as we all know.
Konate was running at full speed and pushed in the back. Its a foul.

In yesterdays game between Palace and Spurs Hojbjerg got about 5 free kicks from softer fouls in the back than Konates push.

The problem is no consistency among refs. You expect a foul after seeing this given in every game but Atwell obviously has another idea. They need to agree on what line of refereeing should apply for everyone and every game.

Ok - I’ll look forward to either your condemnation the next time we get a goal for the slightest of physical contact or the mental gymnastics required to justify it.

 

[Hansern]

Ok - I’ll look forward to either your condemnation the next time we get a goal for the slightest of physical contact or the mental gymnastics required to justify it.

Its not my fault that you havent watched any other football games bar the Brentford one for the last 20 years.
We cant kick off on these free kicks given for softer fouls and then not expect that the same applies to a situation that happens to one of our players.

Its either everyone or nothing.

 

[mark1975]

Its not my fault that you havent watched any other football games bar the Brentford one for the last 20 years.
We cant kick off on these free kicks given for softer fouls and then not expect that the same applies to a situation that happens to one of our players.

Its either everyone or nothing.

I thought it was soft. You see them given and not given, I didn't think it was a foul, you barge each other running for the ball, it doesn't make it a foul. I thought the bigger issue that caused the stumble was Konate trying to head the ball into the ground. Either way it's semantics. We didn't lose because of that decision, we lost because we were fucking diabolical. I'd be embarrassed to try to defend any of it, we were lucky it didn't finish 5-1 or 6-1.

 

[StevieM]

Its not my fault that you havent watched any other football games bar the Brentford one for the last 20 years.
We cant kick off on these free kicks given for softer fouls and then not expect that the same applies to a situation that happens to one of our players.

It’s either everyone or nothing.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but I pretty much watch all our games live, for better or for worse.

But again - ok, you can prove your point the next time we get a goal after similar minimal contact and you can bemoan the lack of referring consistency and tell us the goal should be chalked off.

I will bow down and eat humble pie off your big Viking balls that day.

 

[binomial]

Konate shouldv'e dealt with it a lot better, that's pretty much where the fault lies.

Can't rely on these refs (which we know are shit before the game kicks off) to give us every soft foul and then to also let us off with conceding any soft fouls just to benefit us.

Brentford won. They deserved it. We were shit. We move on.

I only look at decisions when it's blatantly clear and decides games......the ones I can think off the top of my head was the Arsenal away game where Gabriel clearly handles it from Jota's attempted loop into the box and then Jesus falling over in the box from Thiago although there's no contact.

 

[StevieM]

I said this elsewhere, but I don't think we've deliberately abandoned it, I think Salah is far from his energetic best, Nunez presses alot more now than he did at first and he defends more and better in and around our box - he's getting there. The other issue is we're then not playing with an orthodox 3rd forward, so it's been a mixture of Ox, Elliott or Carvalho (for the most part). Ox was the midfielder who always had the shackles loosened a bit, he would benefit from two tough midfielders behind him from Hendo, Gini, Milner and then Fabs. Elliott and Fabio are both physically lightweight. They might press, but they don't win possession as much as more experienced and senior players can/have. It'll probably come for them, but they are young and it's a learning curve coupled with a physical development one.

I really don't think it's a conscious, purposeful shift, I just think we're at a transitional point and too many things are new/old/developing at the same time.

I get what you’re saying - but the press clearly isn’t working and I can’t quite believe that if it’s not by design our coaches wouldn’t have addressed this.

You might be right about Nunez being brilliant at pressing - but he and Diaz are not delivering the results that Jota, Firmino & Mane produced in those positions - so something’s not working.

Pressing isn’t a one man thing - so is the team not understanding the triggers?

I’m sorry - I can’t help but think this is sone tactical ploy to draw the opposition out, win the ball deep and try to hit through balls into space for Nunez as opposed to having a Firmino who doesn’t rely on pace and playing on the final defenders shoulder in the central role (neither did Mane).

I don’t think Lijnders is the devil incarnate - but it is feeling like he’s a bit “Baldrick” with some “cunning plans” that, basically, are as good as the one’s he employed at that Dutch team he managed when he guided them to a worse position than when he took over.

He reminds me of another Pep that thinks he’s too smart for his own good - except without the winning things but.