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NFL Off Season - FAs, Trades, Draft etc

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=39035.msg1151770#msg1151770 date=1281453987]
It's ok, Avy - We get it. You won't budge on this one. We know.
[/quote]

Translation: One standard for Emmit, one for Super Joe.

Oh well, that was easy! :)
 
Not at all, mate. I use my eyes when coming up with my opinions, as well as stats...

I think Joe Cool was the greatest that I've ever seen, 'cos I've watched most of his career as saw what he did. Likewise, the best QB of THIS generation is Peyton Manning. It's not even close. Tom Brady's won more Super Bowls. So has Ben Rothlisberger. But Peyton is the better QB. Stats are not the reason I feel the way I do...

However, as I've long said, to attain better numbers (like he did) on a far inferior team, when the opponents key on stopping you, tells ME, and most neutral observers, that Barry was the better player. That, and the fact that I watched him do things that few others, including Emmitt, would even attempt. Ditto Walter Payton, for that matter. Emmitt ran through holes the size of houses, led by Moose, at a defense already having to account for Micheal Irvin AND Jay Novachek. Barry didn't have a fraction of the support that Emmitt did. And yet, he performed better, as the numbers show. On this occassion, the numbers DO tell an accurate story, my friend.

I'd have Emmitt in the conversation for top five RB's ever, mate. Likewise, I'd include Troy Aikman and Jay Novachek in those same discussions for QB and TE. I'm not trying to downplay his brilliance. I don't hate the Cowboys. I just don't think that it's really an argument, when approached with an open mind.

But, as we already established, you'll never see it, because it's Emmitt, and it's the Cowboys. And that's not an insult... We all have our blind spots. Yours is Dallas based sports teams! :)
 
[quote author=MC Golgotha link=topic=39035.msg1151486#msg1151486 date=1281431836]

I liked some of the Big 10 teams last year, but I think everyone lost their minds at Tyrelle Pryor's Rose Bowl performance when he lit up the Ducks. Not sure that's a bellwether for what we'll see all season. They have to go to Wisconsin and Iowa in divisional play, and Penn State have a reasonable side right now so long as Paterno stays upright. It's Wisconsin I quite like though. All of their O-line return, and I think they only lost one starter on the offense as a whole. John Clay has machine legs and Tolzien looks like he could be an efficient game manager. Other side of the ball might be a problem as they lost Schofield and a few others. Chris Borland is a terrific LB though. Like you said though, none of them are top ten sides.

Thing is, Ohio return most of their team. They'll probably win 11 games, minimum. Florida are Tebowless, and Alabama lost most of their defence. Florida and Alabama meet in a scheduled cross-divisional in the SEC and then could meet again in the SEC championship game. So one or both of them will definitely have a loss, possibly two. A good season will see Ohio in the national title picture for sure. I mean, if they lose one game, they'll easily be ranked in front of an undefeated Boise or TCU side. Big market BCS conference sideswill always be ranked above their ability. Jesus, look at the Big 12. Joke of a conference. I don't believe for a second that Texas would have beaten TCU or Boise last season.

Big 10 gets more interesting with the Cornhuskers next season, and a Championship game. And the Big 12 gets significantly less interesting as it literally becomes the new Big 10 as Colorado walk too.
[/quote]

I agree with a lot of that, but I still think the Big 12 is better than the Big 10, even after Nebraska and Colorado leave. The bog 12 has become the Texas and OU show, and looks to remain that way for a long time.

One thing that really pissed me off this summer when there was all this talk of conference realignment, this summer. Texas A&M was rumored to be involved with the SEC, that would have been great, instead they chose to stay with Texas. And the only reason Texas wanted to stay is because they know hey will dominate the league, and get an almost automatic bid into the BCS title game.
 
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=39035.msg1151863#msg1151863 date=1281461922]
Not at all, mate. I use my eyes when coming up with my opinions, as well as stats...

I think Joe Cool was the greatest that I've ever seen, 'cos I've watched most of his career as saw what he did. Likewise, the best QB of THIS generation is Peyton Manning. It's not even close. Tom Brady's won more Super Bowls. So has Ben Rothlisberger. But Peyton is the better QB. Stats are not the reason I feel the way I do...

However, as I've long said, to attain better numbers (like he did) on a far inferior team, when the opponents key on stopping you, tells ME, and most neutral observers, that Barry was the better player. That, and the fact that I watched him do things that few others, including Emmitt, would even attempt. Ditto Walter Payton, for that matter. Emmitt ran through holes the size of houses, led by Moose, at a defense already having to account for Micheal Irvin AND Jay Novachek. Barry didn't have a fraction of the support that Emmitt did. And yet, he performed better, as the numbers show. On this occassion, the numbers DO tell an accurate story, my friend.

I'd have Emmitt in the conversation for top five RB's ever, mate. Likewise, I'd include Troy Aikman and Jay Novachek in those same discussions for QB and TE. I'm not trying to downplay his brilliance. I don't hate the Cowboys. I just don't think that it's really an argument, when approached with an open mind.

But, as we already established, you'll never see it, because it's Emmitt, and it's the Cowboys. And that's not an insult... We all have our blind spots. Yours is Dallas based sports teams! :)
[/quote]

A few points:

a) you're mad about Aikman - I love him, but he's not in the top 10 (probably even 15-20) of all time. Neither is Jay Novacek. Witten is already ahead of him and I don't think he's top 5.

b) I'm not that blind about the boys, point a proved it! :)

c) You really take unnecessary digs at Herman Moore and Johnnie Morton. They were a phenomenal pair.

d) I don't think Manning is the 'greatest' of the generation. Just like Mr. Sanders would have had FAR more TDs had they ran with him from the 5 in, Mannings stats are greatly skewed by those 1-2-3-4-5 yd TD passes. Brady is the best of the generation. Hands down.

e) Had you put Marino on that 49ers team of the 80s, he would have won the same amount of SBs. He was (and still is) an idiot (I worked with him on the NBC Half time Show) but had the most phenomenal release AND probably the best deep ball in NFL history. Imagine he was throwing to Taylor & Rice and not the M&M combo? Man oh man.

f) Sanders is the best 'athlete' to ever play in the RB position, probably beating out Brown Sayers and Sweetness. But Emmit was the complete back. He did everything at a high level.
 
It was the SEC's fault A&M didn't go to the SEC. Nothing much in it for them if such a move didn't lure the real talent, and The Sooners and Longhorns were looking west.

If they bring Houston into the Big 12 then the conference might survive. A good season for Houston this year will be a factor (and they have moulded a schedule that could see them go unbeaten). Texas are fucking piss takers though. They're the Dallas of 1-A. They've ripped up the revenue agreement in the Big 12 and just demanded basically all of the money. Even though they were already the biggest earners in the whole of college football (even more than the Irish last season) and play in a hokey conference loaded with big match rivalries. Some more of the lesser lights could look to leave if the money split doesn't work out. The SEC model, where the pie is cut up NFL style, is perfect. They have a slew of competitive teams, and even Vandy (who only get 30,000 per home game) can survive. Even though winning seasons might be a rarity for them.

The Texas/Oklahoma route to the nation is a joke. More from next year without the Cornhuskers. It's about the only thing that makes me want either a)some sort of play off system so Boise and TCU can properly light the Longhorns up, or b) stricter oversight of scheduling, so big teams in piss weak BCS conferences have to schedule against strong non-BCS teams in non-divisional weeks. Boise should be ranked number two right now, at the very worst. Looking at the Tide's returning defence there is even an argument to rank them one, but given Bama are unbeaten champions you have to slot them at the top. If Boise go to V-Tech and win on the opener, then they'll go unbeaten (beating Oregon St at home) and should go to the national, regardless of what anyone else does. But they won't be voted above Texas.
 
I'm with Pieman. Manning is the best QB in the league in terms of pure passing and technical ability. He's fucking magic. When he's done it won't be outlandish to call him the best of all time. What he won't be is the most successful. Blown title and conference games in college and the pros will always dog him. So if there is a difference between the best and the greatest (which I think there is), he won't be the greatest. Like, Andre Johnson is easily the best wideout in the league today. But he won't come up in legacy conversations twenty years from now.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=39035.msg1151893#msg1151893 date=1281465732]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=39035.msg1151863#msg1151863 date=1281461922]
Not at all, mate. I use my eyes when coming up with my opinions, as well as stats...

I think Joe Cool was the greatest that I've ever seen, 'cos I've watched most of his career as saw what he did. Likewise, the best QB of THIS generation is Peyton Manning. It's not even close. Tom Brady's won more Super Bowls. So has Ben Rothlisberger. But Peyton is the better QB. Stats are not the reason I feel the way I do...

However, as I've long said, to attain better numbers (like he did) on a far inferior team, when the opponents key on stopping you, tells ME, and most neutral observers, that Barry was the better player. That, and the fact that I watched him do things that few others, including Emmitt, would even attempt. Ditto Walter Payton, for that matter. Emmitt ran through holes the size of houses, led by Moose, at a defense already having to account for Micheal Irvin AND Jay Novachek. Barry didn't have a fraction of the support that Emmitt did. And yet, he performed better, as the numbers show. On this occassion, the numbers DO tell an accurate story, my friend.

I'd have Emmitt in the conversation for top five RB's ever, mate. Likewise, I'd include Troy Aikman and Jay Novachek in those same discussions for QB and TE. I'm not trying to downplay his brilliance. I don't hate the Cowboys. I just don't think that it's really an argument, when approached with an open mind.

But, as we already established, you'll never see it, because it's Emmitt, and it's the Cowboys. And that's not an insult... We all have our blind spots. Yours is Dallas based sports teams! :)
[/quote]

A few points:

a) you're mad about Aikman - I love him, but he's not in the top 10 (probably even 15-20) of all time. Neither is Jay Novacek. Witten is already ahead of him and I don't think he's top 5.

b) I'm not that blind about the boys, point a proved it! :)

c) You really take unnecessary digs at Herman Moore and Johnnie Morton. They were a phenomenal pair.

d) I don't think Manning is the 'greatest' of the generation. Just like Mr. Sanders would have had FAR more TDs had they ran with him from the 5 in, Mannings stats are greatly skewed by those 1-2-3-4-5 yd TD passes. Brady is the best of the generation. Hands down.

e) Had you put Marino on that 49ers team of the 80s, he would have won the same amount of SBs. He was (and still is) an idiot (I worked with him on the NBC Half time Show) but had the most phenomenal release AND probably the best deep ball in NFL history. Imagine he was throwing to Taylor & Rice and not the M&M combo? Man oh man.

f) Sanders is the best 'athlete' to ever play in the RB position, probably beating out Brown Sayers and Sweetness. But Emmit was the complete back. He did everything at a high level.
[/quote]

a. I disagree. They're both up there. Without Troy, the cowboys win NONE of those three SB's. And though Jay wasn't as integral to those teams as other players, it's no coincidence that the moment he was lost to injury, their decline started.

b. Ok, not totally blind. But certainly myopic. And ALMOST totally blind about Emmitt in particular! :)

c. I've already disproved your "Barry had great WR's taking the heat off him" theory before. We both know that, as good as they were, every team set out to stop Barry, in a way they just couldn't afford to with Dallas. Half that Dallas offense will be in the HOF before it's all said and done. Only one Lion will be...

d. Sorry, mate. Not a chance. TB is close to PM, but PM is the better pure QB.

e. Again, I'm not telling you Dan is crap - He's an all-time great. But Joe's the best, in my opinion. And I'd heard that Dan is a complete arsehole before. And that he likes a pint, too... That's too bad. Yes, possibly the strongest arm and fastest release ever. Actually, it's not even "probably", is it?

f. Not as much as Barry. 'Cos he didn't have to...

g. Still love ya, ya big Emmitt homer!
 
[quote author=MC Golgotha link=topic=39035.msg1151900#msg1151900 date=1281466554]

I'm with Pieman. Manning is the best QB in the league in terms of pure passing and technical ability. He's fucking magic. When he's done it won't be outlandish to call him the best of all time. What he won't be is the most successful. Blown title and conference games in college and the pros will always dog him. So if there is a difference between the best and the greatest (which I think there is), he won't be the greatest. Like, Andre Johnson is easily the best wideout in the league today. But he won't come up in legacy conversations twenty years from now.
[/quote]

Great point. Nevermind titles. Who would you bet everything you had on, to get it done..? It HAS to be Barry in this conversation, 'cos if the O-Line is shite and the QB's a nobody, he's dealt with that forever. Emmitt didn't.

My thing has always been "pick a player to do _________ to save your life"... As a QB, it'd be Joe Montana. Peyton would be my #2 choice. And as a running back, it would be Barry Sanders, with Sweetness probably egtting the #2 spot.
 
I had this debate with a person yesterday, and this is how i characterized it:

WRs:

the best: Jerry, the end
the next level: Irvin, Moss etc
the next level: Harrison, TO, etc

RBs:

The best: Barry, Emmit, Sweetness, Brown
the next level: Dickerson, etc
the next level: Faulk, LT, TD, etc
the next level: Steve Bono (for that 76 yd TD run)

QBs:

The best: Joe
the next level: Brady, Marino, Staubach, Johnny U, Elway
the next level: Tarkenton, Kelly, Aikman, Young, Starr, Peyton, Bradshaw
the next level: Favre, Ken Anderson, Fouts, Moon

Again, my argument with Marino/Joe was just that - If I had a QB to win a game, it would be Super Joe or Elway. And though I think Marino is one of the greatest STATS wise, his idiocy (he was a coke head, and a stupid fucker to boat) and the team around him never allowed him to take his talent to where it could have gone (scary saying that, but I think it's true).

Your point re: Novacek doesn't stand in my opinion. Yes, when his back started giving way, our decline started. It wasn't b/c of him though - it was more due to free agency destroying the depth Jimmy had built (Jerry has become a great drafter but back then he was shit) and the lack of discipline. There are far far better TEs in my mind - Bavaro, Sharpe (man he was phenomenal), Tony, even Witten. He was good, but he wasn't one of the best. He just a fantastic security blanket for Aikman.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=39035.msg1151940#msg1151940 date=1281471018]
You forgot calvin johnson in your wide receiver list ;)
[/quote]

he has level 1/2 talent ... he should get there.

also, maybe i'm being slightly harsh on manning.
 
I'd go:

QB - #1: Joe Cool.
Next Level: Manning, Elway, Marino, Unitas, Aikman, Bradshaw, Brady.

RB - #1: Barry.
Next Level: Sweetness, Emmitt, Dickerson, Brown, OJ

WR - #1: Jerry.
Next Level: Carter, Moss, Irvin, Swann, Lofton, Largent, Sharpe.

TE - #1: Tony Gonzales
Next Level: Christenson, Sharpe, Novachek.

I know that I'm forgetting a few names at each position (especially at TE), but you get the drift...
 
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=39035.msg1152402#msg1152402 date=1281551688]
I'd go:

QB - #1: Joe Cool.
Next Level: Manning, Elway, Marino, Unitas, Aikman, Bradshaw, Brady.

RB - #1: Barry.
Next Level: Sweetness, Emmitt, Dickerson, Brown, OJ

WR - #1: Jerry.
Next Level: Carter, Moss, Irvin, Swann, Lofton, Largent, Sharpe.

TE - #1: Tony Gonzales
Next Level: Christenson, Sharpe, Novachek.

I know that I'm forgetting a few names at each position (especially at TE), but you get the drift...
[/quote]

I dunno man, Swann - bar that catch - always seemed to be the 'secondary' WR to Stallworth.

Where do you include Gates? or Witten? I think both ARE better than Novacek ever was - then again, the TE position has evolved so much ...
 
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