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Our main problem

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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
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I think this game finally crystallized this for me: our main issue is that the league has figured Klopp's system out and so far he has refused to adjust. Earlier this season (and last season as well) Klopp took most teams by surprise by his unusual emphasis on playing centrally, on clogging the middle of the pitch in attack as well as defense. 4-3-3 is normally a system that emphasizes wing-play in attack – but in Klopp's unique interpretation, he had wingers play practically as strikers, and even a natural winger like Mane has played (and found joy) closer to the middle – that's how he has become our leading scorer this season. This was highly unusual for English football, with its historic emphasis on wing-play, and proved highly effective.

However, by 2017 even Championship teams got the memo – the way to beat Liverpool is to match them by also clogging the middle much more than they usually would against other teams. I think Burnley were the first team who did it this season and after it worked for them and a couple other teams, the blueprint of "anti-Liverpool football" has emerged and got gradually perfected by the collective wisdom of the rival managers. Now every half-decent manager knows exactly what to do: put 3 players in CM/DM position to take away any space through the middle and watch Liverpool bang their heads against this wall for 90 minutes, gradually getting frustrated and sloppy, and ever more vulnerable to the quick counter. There is plenty of space being left by both teams on either side, but somehow our players are never instructed to work in those spaces – there is almost never any wing-forward or midfielder going out wide to play some combinations with the full-back, it's always a full-back all alone in that space and none of our FB are good enough dribblers who could threaten entering the penalty area from the side, they all look to cross the ball.

Why has Klopp being so slow to adjust to this new reality? I wish I had a good answer; it does look to me like he has been in denial, finding all kinds of explanations for this growing problem – bad luck with finishing chances, fixture congestion, now even having a go at refereeing decisions a little bit, which is not typical for him at all. After the Saints loss he again – bizarrely – blamed the wind "creating problems for the football-playing side" (as if cutting teams to shreds on the counter is not "football-playing." It's strange to hear it from Klopp, who has specialized in this kind of football at Dortmund). Again, this is not at all typical for Klopp to search for silly excuses like that, it just shows how rattled and lost for answers he is at the moment. It has not just been words – his actions showed denial too, from playing Firmino on the wing in almost every game since Coutinho has been injured (ensuring the team doesn't have width on the left flank) to failing to replace Mane with a like-for-like player, to his baffling omission of Ojo today when he was the only player who could have provided that width – instead asking Woodburn to play at wing-back in the 2nd half.

This failing to address the fundamental tactical problem has now created a ripple effect of other problems – the attacking players gradually lost confidence (who wouldn't after banging your head against the wall for 90 minutes game after game?), the midfielders are being caught in two minds between trying to be patient and trying to force some kind of opening, the defense has been exposed for pace by teams deliberately stacking their attacking line with pacy players looking to hurt us on the counter (some of these players might not have even been selected otherwise, because they would not be nearly as effective in a normal game with 55/45 % possession instead of 80/20 % that has become the norm now). One point I want to make about the defense – sure, we don't have the quickest defense in football, but they are also not the slowest (although it must be close to that when Lucas is playing), it's not like fucking Gary Cahill or Rojo are particularly rapid. It's just that that in almost every game we are being lured into playing that 80/20 possession style, where our defenders are forced to cover way too much ground and are naturally getting horribly exposed – so again, the problem is first of all tactical and only secondly having to do with the individual qualities of the players.

I realize that might not be a popular thing to say – it's easier to blame players, some of whom are clearly not good enough – but at the moment our biggest problem is actually the manager and his decisions. He started amazingly well in England, but after about a year in charge the league has adjusted to him and so far he has failed to adjust back. If there is one positive thing that can come out of this debacle of a game, is that it will hopefully crystallize for Klopp and his coaching team the problems that they will have to address.
 
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You need real pace to get any joy from attacking down the sides. As we know it's a quality we severely lack.
 
The above post was my attempt at a diagnosis, here is my proposed solution:
  1. Whenever teams employ the "anti-Liverpool shield" in the middle, switch the point of attack to the wings. It should not be Clyne or Milner 1 on 1 with the opposition full-back, it should be Clyne + Firmino or Milner + Coutinho, every time. Leave fewer players in front of the penalty area, just enough to quickly switch the play from one side to the other.
  2. For this to be accomplished, we would possibly need to switch formation to 4-2-3-1, which was Klopp's default formation at Dortmund. We would get less possession this way, but a bit more width without sacrificing the gegenpressing.
  3. There should be at least one really quick attacking player on the pitch at all times, who is tasked with making the runs in behind. Even Mane after the first 2-3 months of the season started playing deeper, which I thought was counter-productive. Today there was only one moment in the whole game when we got behind the Wolves defensive line – when Coutinho found Moreno with an angled pass between the defenders (Moreno promptly fucked it up, which shows that the quick player should be able to run not only in a straight line). Not having a quick player on the shoulder of the defenders stifles the space and takes away options from the likes of Coutinho – how many times do we need to learn this lesson?
  4. Another reason why a quick player in essential is the counter-attack – probably the most effective weapon in football and one that Klopp's Borussia were absolute masters at. We were pretty good on the counter at times last season and early this season, but at a certain point our ability seems to have atrophied. Today – as it was in the last few games – this aspect of our game was laughably bad. Wolves did not defend with anything close to the discipline and organization of Swansea last weekend or Saints a fortnight ago and we had plenty of opportunities to punish them, but our players made wrong decisions every single time. Most concerning was the lack of numbers of players running forward at speed on the counter – that was the defining feature of Klopp's Borussia side, as soon as they won the ball there were 3, 4 or 5 players running forward full-speed and they would cut teams to shreds this way, now it's gotten so bad that our players seem to lack belief that they can ever score on the counter. This is Klopp's speciality and he needs to sort this out quickly. LFC will not get anywhere playing like a grotesque parody of Barcelona.
  5. Finally, stop emphasizing "control" in midfield and instead ask the midfielders to look for the most direct and dangerous pass forward. If that leads to loss of possession – that's absolutely OK. Our play patterns have become way too predictable and I think that's why the players don't seem to enjoy football any more, which Klopp himself admitted. The likes of Henderson, Wijnaldum, Can and Coutinho are naturally creative players, they all want to take risks, but at the moment their creativity is being stifled by a style of play that – not so much by design, but due to how opposing teams play us – is too skewed towards simply recycling possession. Whatever kind of football we're playing at the moment, it's certainly not "heavy metal."
 
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I think Klopp got lucky a few times last season by playing severely under-strength teams and it's led him to over-rate as well as over-rely on the under-23s. They might be good enough in a couple of years but not now. And if he must play them, he needs to play them where they can most instinctively play at their best. In the reserves the games are so slow and slack you can move an RB into midfield, play a forward on the wing, whatever. You can't use them like that in senior games. Look at Woodburn - yes, he's played all over the place for the reserves but his single claim to be a precocious talent is as a striker, so don't play him out wide. He doesn't think quickly enough, and he's not confident enough or brave enough there, so at best he just turns and passes backwards. He doesn't need to think when he's attacking space in the box, so play him there if you must play him. These are games we have to win, they're not apprentice schemes.

Tactically I'm amazed that such a good manager can be so naive during this period. Sending out a slow and naive team when other teams have already sussed you can defend and then hit the ball long and chase it on the counter attack? It's embarrassingly stupid.

As for no new signings - I really get the idea of not buying for the sake of it, but when you're failing, you need to buy. And as Oliver Kay wrote this morning and many of us have been saying for ages, there are too many players in this squad who, time and time again in finals and other big games, have choked. We need to weed out the weeds, ruthlessly, and buy dynamic, clever, mentally strong competitors. And if it all falls apart when one player is away in Africa, that should suggest we need far more players of similar quality, not a month of playing mediocre kids.
 
We lack more than pace, we lack a strikers instict, we lack a manager with ideas, we lack player intelligence, we lack in desire, we lack in aggressiveness, we lack in physicality.
 
We need the midfielders to make runs beyond the ball again, especially when the likes of Origi, Firmino or Sturridge drop deep to look for it. Wijnaldum was very good at this during our good form and it's why we miss Lallana so much when he's not playing there.

I guess it's natural to want to remain goal side at all times during a losing streak but doing so isn't going to help turn the results around.
 
We've had several teams in a row now that have played deep and looked to hit us on the counter attack, and all we do when we get the ball back is play slowly from the back, loads of sideways passes in the middle of the pitch, some backward passing, then a gamble of a ball forward and off the opposition goes again. To not react to those failings after successive games is just unforgivable.
 
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This failing to address the fundamental tactical problem has now created a ripple effect of other problems – the attacking players gradually lost confidence (who wouldn't after banging your head against the wall for 90 minutes game after game?), the midfielders are being caught in two minds between trying to be patient and trying to force some kind of opening, the defense has been exposed for pace by teams deliberately stacking their attacking line with pacy players looking to hurt us on the counter (some of these players might not have even been selected otherwise, because they would not be nearly as effective in a normal game with 55/45 % possession instead of 80/20 % that has become the norm now). One point on the defense – sure, we don't have the quickest defense in football, but to be fair not are they the slowest (although when Lucas is playing, it's probably close to being the slowest), it's not like fucking Gary Cahill or Rojo are particularly rapid. It's just that that in almost every game we are being lured into playing that 80/20 game now, where our defenders are forced to cover way too much ground – so again, the problem is first of all tactical and only secondly having to do with the individual qualities of the players.

I think the "ripple effects" start from conceding cheap goals, being vulnerable at set pieces and not being a threat from crosses/wide areas. Teams are happy to playing the 80/20 game against us because they know they'll always have a chance at set piece or counter.

There are a few ways we can NOT play into this 80/20 game opponents are drawing us into, but all rely on us being much better at the back.

One way is attacking quickly with underloads. Instead of throwing both full backs wide and high, and emphasising game control, do similar to Chelsea.. and keep 3 at the back, with 1 DM sitting at all times and 1 DM player only moving forwards when he has the ball. Attack with 5 players and encourage them to take risk with the ball knowing you have 5 behind the ball already.

Right now, it feels like we are playing GK-2-1-4-3 up against teams who play GK-5-4-1s. I think adjusting our shape to a GK-3-2-1-4 would be provide more opportunities to penetrate whilst also helping limit counter attacks. We can also take more risk with the ball and look to play a 55/45 game. But again, we need to be better defending, if we are sacrificing "game control".

Another way, we can combat the 80/20 game is to look to work the ball into wide areas and cross it. But I feel we don't have the strikers for this and we are not enough of a threat at set pieces to score from resulting corners.
 
We've lost mobility and directness. That's all

Lallana being moved further up the field stopped his trickery and runs from deep, which often caught CB's unaware

Coutinho needs to be cutting in from the wing. He has more joy with his shots (grumble), and his skills enable to get him to cut across the box much more easily than being crowded out centrally

Mane is obviously a big miss, as the pace causes havoc because players are worried about him constantly because he can get away quickly, making them more error prone. I was surprised that klopp hasn't attempted to play an actual WINGER during this month. Ojo or wilson would have at least offered SOME form of width, and therefore opened space up for the striker. Speaking of which...

Firmino should only be played centrally. Not off a striker either. Just central.

Origi and sturridge shouldn't be getting a look in in this form. They're both just comically inept at the moment.

Midfield. Hendo looks out of sorts, but i can forgive that because he's got the ability. Wijnaldum needs to fucking get a hold of himself. He hasn't put in a commanding performance yet. H'es an excellent support player, but for 25 mil he should be one of the main players.

When we play lucas in midfield, it makes baby jesus cry

Can. Whats happened? You used to be a sexy titan, swagging all over the pitch. Now you look like a pissed up kebab shop owner on a sunday morning. Get your shit together.

The defence is a lost cause when matip isn't playing. Lovren is a confidence player and its very brittle confidence. Klavan i can't decide if he's a decent defender of immensely lucky, because he looks so out of his depth on occasion. Gomez the jury is still out for. I feel for Matip having to partner one of them.

Full backs, Milner looks tired. He's running but it's leggy and heavy. His set piece delivery has suffered as a result. Clyne...no clue whats happened to him this season but he looks suspect and he's not sensible with possession higher up.

Goalkeepers...Karius....nooo. Mignolet has improved immeasurably with competition, however he's still not good enough

So. My 3 stage plan of getting the season back on track

1) Play a winger. Buy one, play ojo. Don't care. Fucking do it.
2) Firmino to play as striker. Nowhere else. Don't give sturridge and origi a look in until firmino looks proper fucked
3) Defence cannot be fixed, but we need consistency. Lovren and Matip, clyne and milner for the season. No more fucking about and changes. Theyre only in one competition now, so fucking grow up.
 
We've had several teams in a row now that have played deep and looked to hit us on the counter attack, and all we do when we get the ball back is play slowly from the back, loads of sideways passes in the middle of the pitch, some backward passing, then a gamble of a ball forward and off the opposition goes again. To not react to those failings after successive games is just unforgivable.
Its how we played under rodgers at the end, and it infuriated me then.

No one is RUNNING at the opposition
 
One way is attacking quickly with underloads. Instead of throwing both full backs wide and high, and emphasising game control, do similar to Chelsea.. and keep 3 at the back, with 1 DM sitting at all times and 1 DM player only moving forwards when he has the ball. Attack with 5 players and encourage them to take risk with the ball knowing you have 5 behind the ball already.

Yep, that's a good suggestion.

Right now, it feels like we are playing GK-2-1-4-3 up against teams who play GK-5-4-1s. I think adjusting our shape to a GK-3-2-1-4 would be provide more opportunities to penetrate whilst also helping limit counter attacks. We can also take more risk with the ball and look to play a 55/45 game. But again, we need to be better defending, if we are sacrificing "game control".

I think it will actually be easier to defend when we do that (particularly if we keep an extra player at the back as you're suggesting). Right now we have the snail-paced Lucas covering half of the pitch against players running at him at pace – you can't possible devise a worse defensive matchup if you tried.
 
We lack a quality midfielder who can tackle and controls the midfield while supporting the defence and have done for years ever since Gerrard's obvious demise was apparent about 4 years ago
 
Our main problem is that we just do not have sufficient quality players to maintain challenges across the season.

We are unable to cope with any kind of disruption.
 
@rurikbird - I honestly don't think it matters what the opposition have done, but more what we've done ... I mentioned it in the ratings thread, but Coutinho's injury started to hurt us this season because it forced our best striker onto the flank, rendering him rather useless most games ... Then the AFCON took away our other dangerous flank option ... That has set off a chain reaction which has not seen us play our best front 6 since Coutinho's injury.

If we have our best front 6 - which I hope is deeper and better next year - I don't think anything teams do will stop us ... Sure, we need a Plan B too - but I think Plan A would work if our team is more than good enough. Once you lose your most dangerous players on the flanks however, Plan A is really problematic to pursue ...
 
Sounds like a few people are beginning to get a bit pissed off with Klopp already. Tuesday is fucking massive.
 
Actually I've noticed that we have only seven games over the next two months and with Mane back we should be the freshest team in the league, No excuses, fuck all games and our entire squad available.

Can Klopp cut it with everything stacked in his favour?
 
This is when Klopp really has to stand up and earn the plaudits as a top class coach. Unfortunately for him, he's going to be judged against the likes of Mourinho and Guardiola who can go out and address glaring weaknesses or squad thinness with a 200m window splurge (and for that to be somehow forgotten by the press).
 
Our main problem is we haven't adjust our playing style based on the players available.

Our set up simple doesn't work with the lack in quality we have in the front 5 area at the moment.
 
Is it just me or does it feel like the Liverpool teams of the last 10 or so years always have to work that much harder for what they get than other teams?

It often feels like our whole setup is like a game of Jenga - built on shakey foundations and thus take away one piece and it all comes tumbling down.

Under Benitez tactics and the system were prioritized over individuals and defensive solidity over attacking prowess and flair. There was an obsession over formations, tactical naunces and everything had to be "just so" or it wouldn't work.

Under Rodgers we had the sort of attacking line up we dreamed over during the Benitez era but none of the tactical know how, defensive solidity or anything else to go with it. Score at least three or go home. We often ran hard, very hard and particularly in the big games but too often looked like headless chickens.

I like Klopp but it still feels like we start every game with some kind of handicap. We need to work harder, create more chances to score, give away goals and so forth and so forth.

And that's when the going is good - going back to the Jenga analogy - take one or two key pieces out and it all seems to go to shit.

It shouldn't be this hard.
 
Is it just me or does it feel like the Liverpool teams of the last 10 or so years always have to work that much harder for what they get than other teams?

It often feels like our whole setup is like a game of Jenga - built on shakey foundations and thus take away one piece and it all comes tumbling down.

Under Benitez tactics and the system were prioritized over individuals and defensive solidity over attacking prowess and flair. There was an obsession over formations, tactical naunces and everything had to be "just so" or it wouldn't work.

Under Rodgers we had the sort of attacking line up we dreamed over during the Benitez era but none of the tactical know how, defensive solidity or anything else to go with it. Score at least three or go home. We often ran hard, very hard and particularly in the big games but too often looked like headless chickens.

I like Klopp but it still feels like we start every game with some kind of handicap. We need to work harder, create more chances to score, give away goals and so forth and so forth.

And that's when the going is good - going back to the Jenga analogy - take one or two key pieces out and it all seems to go to shit.

It shouldn't be this hard.


Kenny I have raised this point - we do indeed work harder than anyone else especially at the moment but you are right we had to do that under GH, Benitez and now under Klopp. This is the case only because I feel like that most of our players (except for Mane, Coutiniho, Matip, and Milner) - their average performance is not up to the standard that this club expects. Everyone talks about how Lallana is great this season but ONLY when he is running his bollox off. I also feel that the game plan we have had under the said previous managers and now under Klopp the 'emphasis' as you describe it is kind of lop-sided towards one side of the game and hence everything falls apart when an element that makes it work is not performing or not available.

I did not feel the same when Rodgers was in charge or for that matter Kenny - with Rodgers he had the advantage of having the front 3 in peak form which basically took the pressure off the rest of the team. I thought we pissed over the hard teams easily with that side and even the lower teams because of Suarez and we were playing like a Title winning team if not for that slip we would have had 19. Under Kenny it was kind of the same - there was a balance he was trying to achieve but players that he signed like Henderson were just not ready under him.

I think Klopp has a sound system - but really he does not have the depth of squad or the average level of quality needed to do what he would like. It can be a winning formula and I do love the guy and his approach - having that ball takes out the tension for me that I used to suffer under Rafa, and GH where our teams would looke for that moment of transition (i..e when the opposition makes a forced or unforced error). Under Klopp we have the ball more but its not working for lack of one player of a certain type not been available to him - he needed someone to replicate the work that Mane does as a winger that's all really - just to speed things up with the passing and movement. Klopp wants to create those gazillion chances and have them put away we did that to a certain degree early on but it has stopped now because of the great guerrilla tactics used by the lower teams.
 
Is it just me or does it feel like the Liverpool teams of the last 10 or so years always have to work that much harder for what they get than other teams?

It often feels like our whole setup is like a game of Jenga - built on shakey foundations and thus take away one piece and it all comes tumbling down.

Under Benitez tactics and the system were prioritized over individuals and defensive solidity over attacking prowess and flair. There was an obsession over formations, tactical naunces and everything had to be "just so" or it wouldn't work.

Under Rodgers we had the sort of attacking line up we dreamed over during the Benitez era but none of the tactical know how, defensive solidity or anything else to go with it. Score at least three or go home. We often ran hard, very hard and particularly in the big games but too often looked like headless chickens.

I like Klopp but it still feels like we start every game with some kind of handicap. We need to work harder, create more chances to score, give away goals and so forth and so forth.

And that's when the going is good - going back to the Jenga analogy - take one or two key pieces out and it all seems to go to shit.

It shouldn't be this hard.

I often said exactly this. Sometimes under Benitez it seemed as if all it required was one 'loose nut' and the whole fucking machine shook itself to death. We couldn't carry even one poor performer.

I also started a thread about how we really needed 14 players for the system to work, with the amount of individuals who seemed to require two others in order to function properly - you know 'he needs to play in a midfield three with one person to run for him and another to tackle'

Perhaps the fundamentals of what Klopp is trying to build can be more independently reliable, but I'm not sure. It's clear that without the ability to adapt and change the tempo up and down, we are screwed. And more importantly, we need solidity and leadership defensively, because you can't win titles with a shambles like ours.

I've always found it weird that there is an accepted logic about how preferable it is to have a 'team' rather than a few super-gifted individuals, because then you are less reliant on those players if they are injured or off-form.

What? It's a logical fallacy. If one of those super-talented match winners is missing, then rely on the other one. Hope one of the blokes in the trenches comes up with some thing for once. With a 'team' all reliant on eachother, one component part failing fucks up THE ENTIRE TEAM.

I know which I prefer.
 
Is it just me or does it feel like the Liverpool teams of the last 10 or so years always have to work that much harder for what they get than other teams?

It often feels like our whole setup is like a game of Jenga - built on shakey foundations and thus take away one piece and it all comes tumbling down.

Under Benitez tactics and the system were prioritized over individuals and defensive solidity over attacking prowess and flair. There was an obsession over formations, tactical naunces and everything had to be "just so" or it wouldn't work.

Under Rodgers we had the sort of attacking line up we dreamed over during the Benitez era but none of the tactical know how, defensive solidity or anything else to go with it. Score at least three or go home. We often ran hard, very hard and particularly in the big games but too often looked like headless chickens.

I like Klopp but it still feels like we start every game with some kind of handicap. We need to work harder, create more chances to score, give away goals and so forth and so forth.

And that's when the going is good - going back to the Jenga analogy - take one or two key pieces out and it all seems to go to shit.

It shouldn't be this hard.

It's the lack of quality in the squad. I don't think we've ever had a good squad. A good core of 12 to 14 players, yes, but nothing beyond that.
 
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