Gen-Gen Depressing

[manwithnoname]

There's plenty of people on here who slavishly follow managers, and afford them God-like status. Who quack on about 4-3-3 and pressing, and whatever.
And there's plenty who do the exact opposite, and give managers, tactics, strategy etc no respect or credit at all.

As ever, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but I don't think there's anyone here who does not think Klopp is doing a superb job as Liverpool manager, and has the CV to back it up.

But I wanted to talk about his ethos. His way of playing and the type of footballers that he favours.

It's a wider discussion that will hopefully include Sturridge, Firmino, and how likely it is that he can ever win the title with Liverpool. Obviously, my view is - and always has been - that managers and tactics and whatever is entirely secondary to how much money is available. Anyone and any club can win the title if enough cash is thrown at it.

But can Klopp and his "gen-gen pressing" buck that trend?

I suppose as a start point, it's worth discussing how flexible certain players are in Klopp's system. We've discussed and - dismissed - certain footballers as simply not fitting in. Benteke. Sturridge. But also the type of football played.

It struck me in the Spurs League tie, when after months of wondering about Sturridge's pace, we saw him run onto a through ball, clear on goal, and finish. And a poster remarked that it seemed ages since we'd seen Sturridge do that. Or indeed ANYONE do that.

And it's true. We don't play that type of football anymore. And the gen-gen pressing style seems to obviate the need for that type of football entirely. I love long, chipped or slide-rule passes that takes out a defence. The sort of ball that Owen, Torres, Sturridge and Rush thrive on as they burn past the defensive lines. The ball that players like Gerrard, Dalglish and Beardsley provided at will.

So maybe it isn't workrate or whatever that is Sturridge's problem. We just don't play the type of football that suits his game. And even Mane, who started so well, now seems rather subdued as the gen-gen style comes into play. He's got no space. He's running sideways and diagonally across the pitch, because GGpressing means there ISN'T any space for players like him, or Sturridge to run into.

It suits quick-footed, hardworking players who can work in small spaces and bursts. Lallana, Firmino, Coutinho. They don't need to be quick or pacy.

Firmino is slow, but it doesn't really matter, because he rarely has any space to run into anyway. And we don't need a striker as such, because everyone is so compressed that positions become meaningless anyway.



So I'd be unsure if even greats like Gerrard, Torres, Rush or Owen could play for a Klopp team.

 

[Leo]

That's a funny way of saying I was wrong all along.

 

[Dreambeliever]

I think last season killed the illusion that a large amount of money was mandatory to win the league.

I also think you are wrong about our style, we've just seen poorer sides sit deep as they are scared shitless of giving our boys space in their own half. Compress the pitch and make it a superb compact as possible is the best tactic to nullify us.

Luckily we seem to have players in Lallana, Coutinho and Firminio who can still break through that wall.

When we play the better more adventurous sides you'll see Studge/Origi/Mane break through again.
Shiiiiiit you even saw Mane do it this weekend he just couldn't finish

 

[Oliver Twist]

Firmino ran into space and scored on Saturday.

 

[juniormember]

We have plenty of players bursting behind the defense with through balls when we successfully counter-press.
I recall Mane and Firmino doing that in the last game, with plenty more in others.
Counter pressing gives players plenty of space to run into because the opposition are out of position.

 

[leftpeg]

The big and as yet still unanswered question for me is does Sturridge have a role in this team?

Our style of play, the players and the form they're in mean we'll always create chances but we're still not ruthless enough in converting them. What a fully fit, focused and motivated Sturridge offers us, more than anybody else in the squad (more than most in the league and beyond) is the clinical eye for goal...the ability to convert those chances on a regular basis. With THAT Sturridge, our goals per chances created ratio is bound to increase irrespective of the alternatives. Of all the players in our squad, who would you want one on one with the keeper? Or with the ball at his feet 10 yards out in a crowded area? It's Sturridge. It's always Sturridge. How we get there, be it the slide pass, chipped ball, cross or the end result of an intricate passing move, is irrelevant, if we get the ball into those spaces Sturridge is more likely to convert than any alternative.

So it comes back, yet again, to Sturridge's fitness and attitude. If we crack those puzzles it's a complete no-brainer...Sturridge starts regardless. I would happily sacrifice a few kms of running or pressing in return for a world-class, greedy bastard striker finding the net more regularly than the undoubtedly impressive Firmino.

In other matters, I still have a concern also about the impact on the team of taking just one or two 'first-teamers' out. Look at the difference when we missed Lallana at the start of the Utd game...and the difference he made when he came on? And who thinks we would have beaten Palace at the weekend if Coutinho had been unavailable. It seems that even a single change to the starting 11 makes a huge difference to our approach and effectiveness. Klopp needs to address that.

 

[davud graham]

It's nice that for a change we have the players and style that can score goals no matter what the opposition tries to do.
If they play deep then we gegen press them and score through our players who can get the ball back quickly and use their quick feet and short sharp passes to catch the opposition out.
The only times so far this season when this hasn't worked was against Burnley and Man Utd when Sturridge started and didn't work hard enough to close them down. If the striker doesn't start the press then it's a lot easier to play though it. Also our long range shooting in the Burnley game especially was poor.

If the opposition team is daft enough to play higher up the park then we have the long range passing ability to thread through balls and the pace and movement up front to take advantage. This has worked very well so far this season and I hope that more teams are stupid enough to play this way against us.

 

[FoxForceFive]

That last paragraph is key.

Sadly it's the reason I can't get too excited about genuine title chances.

We play this well with all our quality players in the side.

Take one or two out & the replacements aren't good enough to keep us playing the same way.

If we can keep this up to January & maybe get in one or two players who can genuinely replace that work rate & one touch passing, or if some of the reserves or kids can do a good enough job (Origi is arguably a good bet to replace mane if needs be) then things look brighter.

 

[Modo]

I don't think Mané is being subdued at all, he could have got two goals against Palace.
The only player being subdued is one sitting on the bench, Sturridge.

 

[davud graham]

It's so important for us that Firmino stays fit as he's far better suited to playing the central striker/attacker role at the moment than any of our other forwards. He works harder than any of the others except maybe Ings though he's far better technically than Ings.
He's more alert than Origi who sometimes looks a bit lost when we are doing short intricate passing around the box whereas Sturridge isn't ideal at that because he want's too many touches and it slows everything down.
Whilst Firmino is fit and on form the other strikers won't get much of a chance in league games unless Mane or Coutinho gets injured.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

It's a really good post - that should be in the Firmino thread (I'll leave it here unless you want it moved)

The big and as yet still unanswered question for me is does Sturridge have a role in this team?

Our style of play, the players and the form they're in mean we'll always create chances but we're still not ruthless enough in converting them. What a fully fit, focused and motivated Sturridge offers us, more than anybody else in the squad (more than most in the league and beyond) is the clinical eye for goal...the ability to convert those chances on a regular basis. With THAT Sturridge, our goals per chances created ratio is bound to increase irrespective of the alternatives. Of all the players in our squad, who would you want one on one with the keeper? Or with the ball at his feet 10 yards out in a crowded area? It's Sturridge. It's always Sturridge. How we get there, be it the slide pass, chipped ball, cross or the end result of an intricate passing move, is irrelevant, if we get the ball into those spaces Sturridge is more likely to convert than any alternative.

So it comes back, yet again, to Sturridge's fitness and attitude. If we crack those puzzles it's a complete no-brainer...Sturridge starts regardless. I would happily sacrifice a few kms of running or pressing in return for a world-class, greedy bastard striker finding the net more regularly than the undoubtedly impressive Firmino.

In other matters, I still have a concern also about the impact on the team of taking just one or two 'first-teamers' out. Look at the difference when we missed Lallana at the start of the Utd game...and the difference he made when he came on? And who thinks we would have beaten Palace at the weekend if Coutinho had been unavailable. It seems that even a single change to the starting 11 makes a huge difference to our approach and effectiveness. Klopp needs to address that.

Your first question is a tough one - I want to say, "Of course!" but then I think, if we stick to this current formation etc, then it causes the team issues as we saw with Utd (While the Lallana absence hurt, Firmino on the flank of a ST is just not good enough, and Studge in the middle limits the 4-3-3's success). I didn't follow Dortmund much when Klopp was a manager - if he will stick to this formation year in, year out - then I think he'll struggle for games if Firmino is healthy.

I don't think Studge's fitness or attitude are a problem - his attitude is what I'd expect from a player who's on the bench when he knows he's good enough to start for almost every team in the league, and his fitness has been fine. The question - for me at least - is can he create the space needed for Mane and Coutinho to make our team even more dangerous ... If he cracks that imo, he'll be the starter ...

 

[leftpeg]

It's a really good post - that should be in the Firmino thread (I'll leave it here unless you want it moved).

Oh crikey...decisions, decisions. I'll leave it up to you

 

[manwithnoname]

I think last season killed the illusion that a large amount of money was mandatory to win the league.

I also think you are wrong about our style, we've just seen poorer sides sit deep as they are scared shitless of giving our boys space in their own half. Compress the pitch and make it a superb compact as possible is the best tactic to nullify us.

Yeah, because something happening once is proof.

Fuck me.

 

[manwithnoname]

That's a funny way of saying I was wrong all along.

Not really. I'm just pragmatic and prefer fact-based and data-led conclusions, rather than fantasy ideas and sample-size-of-one "here's what I reckon" conjecture and bullshit.

So, when I talk about the requirement for successful, title-winning teams being defensively solid and having a reliable, quality goal-scoring focus, it is always based on actual things that have happened in the past. More than once.

I dunno. I sometimes feel like fucking Galileo in this place. It's fucking ROUND.

 

[gareth_thomas]

Starting to revert back to type. I'm fucking sick of reading this egotistical bullshit on every single page.

 

[dantes]

Not really. I'm just pragmatic and prefer fact-based and data-led conclusions, rather than fantasy ideas and sample-size-of-one "here's what I reckon" conjecture and bullshit.

So, when I talk about the requirement for successful, title-winning teams being defensively solid and having a reliable, quality goal-scoring focus, it is always based on actual things that have happened in the past. More than once.

I dunno. I sometimes feel like fucking Galileo in this place. It's fucking ROUND.

I'd opt for conjecture every single time. Correlations between two data sets are often spurious. You correlate having a 20 goal striker with winning the tittle. There is also a correlation between having a 20 goal striker and having a good team. So cut out the middle man, and what's to say the actual correlation you are observing isn't just having a good team vs winning the title?

You need to take your data, and perform a cointegration test to see if there is any chance it is actually physically meaningful. Otherwise, forget the historical statistics, and evidence-based bullshit, and use that brain of yours instead.

 

[manwithnoname]

The big and as yet still unanswered question for me is does Sturridge have a role in this team?

Our style of play, the players and the form they're in mean we'll always create chances but we're still not ruthless enough in converting them. What a fully fit, focused and motivated Sturridge offers us, more than anybody else in the squad (more than most in the league and beyond) is the clinical eye for goal...the ability to convert those chances on a regular basis. With THAT Sturridge, our goals per chances created ratio is bound to increase irrespective of the alternatives. Of all the players in our squad, who would you want one on one with the keeper? Or with the ball at his feet 10 yards out in a crowded area? It's Sturridge. It's always Sturridge. How we get there, be it the slide pass, chipped ball, cross or the end result of an intricate passing move, is irrelevant, if we get the ball into those spaces Sturridge is more likely to convert than any alternative.

So it comes back, yet again, to Sturridge's fitness and attitude. If we crack those puzzles it's a complete no-brainer...Sturridge starts regardless. I would happily sacrifice a few kms of running or pressing in return for a world-class, greedy bastard striker finding the net more regularly than the undoubtedly impressive Firmino.

In other matters, I still have a concern also about the impact on the team of taking just one or two 'first-teamers' out. Look at the difference when we missed Lallana at the start of the Utd game...and the difference he made when he came on? And who thinks we would have beaten Palace at the weekend if Coutinho had been unavailable. It seems that even a single change to the starting 11 makes a huge difference to our approach and effectiveness. Klopp needs to address that.

The Sturridge question is obviously a very important component, but I discovered it isn't really him, or his workrate. It's how he plays.

Those strikers - Torres, Owen, Rush, - that need to have space to accelerate into, to get towards top speed and use their pace to exploit space, seem totally wasted in a gen-gen pressing team. There is no space.

A shame, because I love that type of player. But also, would a footballer like Gerrard even prosper? He eats space with his power and movement, but also his amazing long passing range and ability to "hit" the runs of that type of player.

So what is the perfect midfielder? It would seem that height and physicality is only important when opposition teams bypass the high press with long balls, which a deep midfielder needs to be able to attack in the air. Other than that, what's his purpose?

And then the defence. Does that belong here? What does Klopp want from them and his keeper?

Clearly we have a huge problem defensively; we are utterly inept. It's been easy to blame individuals, but we replaced Mignolet with a keeper who is equally useless, and while Matip and Clyne (especially) seem to be quality players, the entire defence is just fucked. Is that anything to do with the system?

We've conceded TWICE as many goals as anyone else in the Top 8 or so, and only THREE teams in the entire fucking league have shipped more goals than Liverpool. We can't win a title with this defence. It's fucking dreadful.

So what can we do to fix it? And if we fix one bit, does the system and players we have now that have got us to 23 points become less effective?

It's that balance I worry about.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

I fervently believe that the fact that Klopp is clearly influencing and motivating our side to play a brand of exciting, irresistible football is the main reason why you don't see Rosco posting anywhere on 6CM any more - except in the Pictures and Gif forums.

 

[gareth_thomas]

Klopp out!

 

[manwithnoname]

I fervently believe that the fact that Klopp is clearly influencing and motivating our side to play a brand of exciting, irresistible football is the main reason why you don't see Rosco posting anywhere on 6CM any more - except in the Pictures and Gif forums.

Eh? Didn't everyone enjoy that season under Rodgers? It was ace. Until the end, anyway.

 

[manwithnoname]

Klopp out!

What a depressingly binary response. Show some imagination and perspicacity.

 

[doctor_mac]

Rush would have been amazing in a Klopp team. He was the original defending striker. Gerrard would surely have been fantastic in his pomp. Imagine him playing where Lallana or Gini are playing now, and regularly receiving the ball high up the pitch in the situations that counterpressing creates so often. He would have been terrifying to the opposition.

 

[gareth_thomas]

Honestly .. its not worth it. You are a nothing but a troll. If someone puts time and effort into a post you tend to reply with some smart ass comment, completely ignoring any good points that were raised. Your posting style has declined dramatically in recent weeks.

 

[juniormember]

Rush would have been amazing in a Klopp team. He was the original defending striker. Gerrard would surely have been fantastic in his pomp. Imagine him playing where Lallana or Gini are playing now, and regularly receiving the ball high up the pitch in the situations that counterpressing creates so often. He would have been terrifying to the opposition.

Yup. Gerard in his pomp had ridiculous stamina as well. He'd have been great.
Rush would have been amazing. As would Suarez, obviously.
Don't know why Brendan's ignoring the fact that players ARE played in on goal as that's exactly what the counter-pressing style allows.

 

[peekay]

Lewandowski had no issues in a Klopp system. Doesn't he play more like a traditional striker? Aubameyang? Given Rush's pressing from the front, Klopp would have loved him. Not too sure about Owen.

 

[Stulikesdrums]

Rush would have been amazing in a Klopp team. He was the original defending striker. Gerrard would surely have been fantastic in his pomp. Imagine him playing where Lallana or Gini are playing now, and regularly receiving the ball high up the pitch in the situations that counterpressing creates so often. He would have been terrifying to the opposition.

Agreed. The notion that top drawer players couldn't play for Klopp is fucking mental.

 

[manwithnoname]

Honestly .. its not worth it. You are a nothing but a troll. If someone puts time and effort into a post you tend to reply with some smart ass comment, completely ignoring any good points that were raised. Your posting style has declined dramatically in recent weeks.

My recent posts and threads have generated more responses, discussion and activity than anything else recently.

I might have missed some of yours. Sorry, if so.

Perhaps delight us with your own opinions and thoughts about the relevant footballing topics, rather than a worthless meta-analysis that nobody fucking cares about.

 

[manwithnoname]

Agreed. The notion that top drawer players couldn't play for Klopp is fucking mental.

Didn't say "top drawer" players. Just that certain footballing attributes cannot and will not prosper in a Klopp team.

Unless of course you think that Adam Lallana and Roberto Firmino could play CM and CF in any side and look great.

 

[doctor_mac]

Lewandowski had no issues in a Klopp system. Doesn't he play more like a traditional striker? Aubameyang? Given Rush's pressing from the front, Klopp would have loved him. Not too sure about Owen.

Yes, Owen would have been less likely to figure. Torres in his day would have been amazing if played in Mane's position.

 

[manwithnoname]

Yup. Gerard in his pomp had ridiculous stamina as well. He'd have been great.
Rush would have been amazing. As would Suarez, obviously.
Don't know why Brendan's ignoring the fact that players ARE played in on goal as that's exactly what the counter-pressing style allows.

No they aren't. There's been almost ZERO passes that have beaten the offside trap and allowed a pacy striker to rush forward and score.

Largely because Firmino can't actually run fast. But the only example of that kind of goal was Sturridge against Spurs.

The sort of devastating exploitation of a defensive high line that saw us demolish Spurs at WHL a few seasons ago simply isn't ever going to happen under Klopp