Sevilla post-mortem

[rurikbird]

First half was probably the best half of football we've played this season. I was looking at my TV and thinking – if we play like that, we can beat any team in front of us. Sevilla were shell-shocked, this was a team that hasn't lost at home for more than a year and they just had no answers. There is not much else to say, other than this new thing of us scoring from corners is fun and scoring identical goals is double-fun 🙂

Second half was a little different... Sevilla came out of the tunnel with all guns blazing; the emotional team-talk from the coach where he revealed his cancer diagnosis fired them up, the tactical change with Banega moving deeper worked perfectly and from the get-go they put us under some serious pressure. How did our players respond to that pressure? Defensively, it was actually not too bad – Lovren and Gomez in particular made a few cool-headed plays and when all else failed, Karius came to the rescue (in the first half too). But the crucial difference compared to the first half (where Sevilla also created some good chances) was that the attack disappeared completely. We were murdering them on the break in the first 45, exploiting their high line with the pace of Mane and Salah – yet here we couldn't get any semblance of a meaningful attack until the score was already 2:3. For me, it's a collective failing stemming from the lack of quality on the ball from some of the defensive players in particular – I think if Naby Keita was playing instead of Henderson, he would have found a way to hold on to the ball under pressure and if Matip was playing instead of Lovren or Klavan, he would have passed the ball a little more calmly and positively instead of just clearing it anywhere. The front 4 must bear their own share of responsibility – it really looked like they were not sure what to do in this situation and everyone tried a different strategy: Mane was dropping very deep into defense, but not helping much, Salah stayed upfield, but never got the ball, Coutinho, who could have been a crucial link between defense and attack, just disappeared – not for the first time in this situation.

Did you notice that I wrote a whole paragraph about the 2nd half without mentioning Moreno? Yes, he turned out to be the weakest link defensively – but that's really no surprise, is it? He should be our worst defender, just like Marcelo is Real's worst defender and Jordi Alba is Barca's – these players are not there to defend all the time. I did think Moreno saved a certain goal in between the mistakes and while it's undeniable that it was his individual errors that turned the game, I think the bigger and harder question to answer is why did the team allow themselves to be put under wave after wave of pressure so that our attacking left-back had to deal with 3-4 situations in a short span of time where we concede a goal unless he makes a perfect play. Yes, he should have done better, but honestly it could have been Gomez or Robertson or Lovren or even Milner or somebody else who made the crucial mistake and the result would have been the same. Yes, of course there are teams who thrive on opposition pressure, whose whole m.o. is frustrating proactive teams and feeding off scraps – that's not this team, it was simply not built for that kind of football. So this group of players needs to realize that they can't afford to become a poor imitation of West Brom at any point of the game, to become passive spectators when the other teams attacks – they need to have enough confidence to fight fire with fire and enough quality to be able to keep playing their way and not be thrown off the gameplan no matter how intense the pressure.

Last thing I want to say – as a fan, I have enjoyed this game tremendously. There are only a few games per year where you become so engrossed that you completely lose a sense of time and space and this was one of them. Win, lose or draw, it's that feeling that's the big reason why we keep watching and giving a shit.

 

[hmmmmm1]

The front 4 did thier job, we scored 3 away from home. Why are you always looking for complex solutions to simple problems.


2 individual mistakes by the same player (Moreno) cost us.

 

[tombrown]

Will probably beat Spartak and all this will be forgotten

My biggest worry is how we react on Saturday. Just to need to get 4 goals up, as 3-0 is clearly a nervous lead

 

[davud graham]

Of course Moreno deserves the majority of the blame as he was culpable for the first two goals but Gomez was almost as bad as him in my opinion. His tackles may not have been as rash as Moreno's but his marking and positioning was hopeless. Time after time they got in behind him and it was only their failure to capitalise on the opportunities and to be fair his ability to recover due to his pace that stopped any goals from that side.
Neither full backs were given much protection from the players in front of them and at times they were up against two players but this seemed to be happening all over the pitch as they attacked and we stopped making tackles and couldn't keep hold of the ball whenever we did have it.

Klopp should have done something to negate the influence that Banega was having on the game but if he did try something to do that i failed to see it. Everything was going through him so stopping him would have been a big help, pity we have no defensive minded midfielders at the club any more. I understand Klopp thinking he could do without Lucas and Stewart but not signing anyone to replace that role in the squad was poor judgment as there are always going to be times when you need a player like that to see out a game or negate an opposition players influence on the game.

 

[Best Believe It]

Did you notice that I wrote a whole paragraph about the 2nd half without mentioning Moreno? Yes, he turned out to be the weakest link defensively – but that's really no surprise, is it? He should be our worst defender, just like Marcelo is Real's worst defender and Jordi Alba is Barca's – these players are not there to defend all the time. I did think Moreno saved a certain goal in between the mistakes and while it's undeniable that it was his individual errors that turned the game, I think the bigger and harder question to answer is why did the team allow themselves to be put under wave after wave of pressure so that our attacking left-back had to deal with 3-4 situations in a short span of time where we concede a goal unless he makes a perfect play. Yes, he should have done better, but honestly it could have been Gomez or Robertson or Lovren or even Milner or somebody else who made the crucial mistake and the result would have been the same. Yes, of course there are teams who thrive on opposition pressure, whose whole m.o. is frustrating proactive teams and feeding off scraps – that's not this team, it was simply not built for that kind of football. So this group of players needs to realize that they can't afford to become a poor imitation of West Brom at any point of the game, to become passive spectators when the other teams attacks – they need to have enough confidence to fight fire with fire and enough quality to be able to keep playing their way and not be thrown off the gameplan no matter how intense the pressure.

This, amongst the rest of Rurik's excellent post, is worth dwelling on a little. We have almost no response when one of our players is targeted. No on the pitch response at least. Our players know Moreno's weaknesses and should have a response when he's targeted. I don't think Moreno is good enough for us but I honestly feel now that the midfield is the main problem in this side. There's not a combination of players in the centre of the pitch that would make me feel particularly confident. I don't rate Henderson as either a captain or a top-class player, Wini goes missing constantly, Milner is good but not consistently great, Can is nowhere near the superstar he thinks he is and Coutinho is still too inconsistent. It feels like ages since I've seen Lallana play but he's about the only one I'd say should be a guaranteed pick in central midfield. Everyone else you could make a solid argument for replacing.

 

[Hansern]

Excellent post Rurik, as usual. Have to say that when the dust has settled and you're over the worst disappointment, 3-3 is probably a very fair result given the chances at both ends. Feels shit to give away a 3-0 lead of course, and that shouldnt happen regardless.

Our midfield is definetly a big part of our problem. But you can say that we dont have a strong enough core through the team. From the goalkeeper, central defence to central midfield. When other teams are pressing us we have no leaders, no players with that extra bit of spark and quality to see of those threats. Desperatly need a better core through this team.

Moreno is awful though. That part of the game still makes me angry. Two unnecessary fouls and some very poor defending.
He wasnt alone obviously, but that was two key moments in the game.

 

[rurikbird]

This, amongst the rest of Rurik's excellent post, is worth dwelling on a little. We have almost no response when one of our players is targeted. No on the pitch response at least. Our players know Moreno's weaknesses and should have a response when he's targeted. I don't think Moreno is good enough for us but I honestly feel now that the midfield is the main problem in this side. There's not a combination of players in the centre of the pitch that would make me feel particularly confident. I don't rate Henderson as either a captain or a top-class players, Wini goes missing constantly, Milner is good but not consistently great, Can is nowhere near the superstar he thinks he is and Coutinho is still too inconsistent. It feels like ages since I've seen Lallana play but he's about the only one I'd say should be a guaranteed pick in central midfield. Everyone else you could make a solid argument for replacing.

I actually thought during the game that Sevilla targeted Joe Gomez more than Moreno, especially in the first half. Fortunately for him, Gomez dealt with it pretty well, except for that one chance by Nolito when Karius saved a sure goal.

I'm starting to come around to something similar to your assessment of the midfield. Let's see how they do against Hazard, Fabregas and Kante, but certainly nobody could deal with Banega the other night and that's disappointing. Not sure even Keita alone can fix it. For me the biggest disappointment is Coutinho – he doesn't get nearly as much stick for "disappearing" as the likes of Wijnaldum, but he's actually proving to be the ultimate fair-weather player in this team; nearly useless when we're under the cosh. For a playmaker that's a huge flaw.

 

[Kay Age El]

We are making football entertaining again aren't we.. yeah we didn't win and it all was a bit horrendous in the end but OMG we are dead sexy to watch. I love us.

Also, let's appreciate what we've got here, be a bit humble about it all. I mean just imagine being an United fan having to sit through 90 minutes after 90 minutes of absolutely dreary, predictable and negative football. We are like light-years ahead of them in that aspect and are actually pretty spoiled at the moment. Salah, Mane, Coutinho and Firmino, The Fantastic Four, are turning us into a blockbuster team.

We have our flaws and our obvious gaps in the squad but on the whole you have to be impressed with the way we address the game. I know I am, and I am even looking forward to our games well knowing we might suddenly lose a fluke but there's kinda nothing new there. What is new is that we also might tear teams apart utterly and completely and simply annihilate opponents on the pitch.

A few thoughts on the game;

> Both of Firmino and Mane's finishes leading to the first two goals where pretty exquisite. They were NOT easy despite the close proximity to the goal-line on both occasions but they made it look so.

> Coutinho just looked like a happy player again. And what a player he can be when happy.

> Moreno fucked up surely, but am I the only one thinking that Coutinho put him under quite some pressure with the ball that led to the peno? I still like him in our team and what he brings to table, brain farts aside.

> Game could've ended 5-5 easily. That's entertainment folks.

> Oh and Basel beat United after another drab game of football sucking the sheer life and happiness out of supporters everywhere. Fuck that.

 

[rurikbird]

Here's a graphic illustration of Coutinho's 2nd half "performance." He made 3 (three!) attempted passes from the 46th minute until he was subbed. Two of which were intercepted and the only "successful" one was the pass to Moreno that led to the penalty. No take-ons, no interceptions or tackles. Coming from the main playmaker and the supposed star of the team, it's an absolute disgrace.

Do you want to see Ever Banega's 2nd half passing map for comparison? I know you do:

UPD: I looked at other player's passing stats too. Most were OK in the 2nd half, except Firmino and Henderson who were active, but erratic (29% and 53% passing for the half respectively). Wijnaldum passed almost exclusively backwards and sideways, but at least with decent accuracy. Gomez was excellent and Lovren and Klavan not far behind, so maybe I was too harsh on them in the OP. Moreno's passing map is funny and sad – only 1 attempted pass: short, sideways and missed. (By the way in the 1st half his passing was excellent). Basically both him and Coutinho completely lost their bearings in the 2nd half and if anything, were subbed too late.

 

[Fabio]

I actually thought during the game that Sevilla targeted Joe Gomez more than Moreno, especially in the first half. Fortunately for him, Gomez dealt with it pretty well, except for that one chance by Nolito when Karius saved a sure goal.

I'm starting to come around to something similar to your assessment of the midfield. Let's see how they do against Hazard, Fabregas and Kante, but certainly nobody could deal with Banega the other night and that's disappointing. Not sure even Keita alone can fix it. For me the biggest disappointment is Coutinho – he doesn't get nearly as much stick for "disappearing" as the likes of Wijnaldum, but he's actually proving to be the ultimate fair-weather player in this team; nearly useless when we're under the cosh. For a playmaker that's a huge flaw.

I think I give coutinho enough stick so other fans don't have to

 

[Fabio]

We are making football entertaining again aren't we.. yeah we didn't win and it all was a bit horrendous in the end but OMG we are dead sexy to watch. I love us.

Also, let's appreciate what we've got here, be a bit humble about it all. I mean just imagine being an United fan having to sit through 90 minutes after 90 minutes of absolutely dreary, predictable and negative football. We are like light-years ahead of them in that aspect and are actually pretty spoiled at the moment. Salah, Mane, Coutinho and Firmino, The Fantastic Four, are turning us into a blockbuster team.

We have our flaws and our obvious gaps in the squad but on the whole you have to be impressed with the way we address the game. I know I am, and I am even looking forward to our games well knowing we might suddenly lose a fluke but there's kinda nothing new there. What is new is that we also might tear teams apart utterly and completely and simply annihilate opponents on the pitch.

A few thoughts on the game;
.

> Coutinho just looked like a happy player again. And what a player he can be when happy.

> Moreno fucked up surely, but am I the only one thinking that Coutinho put him under quite some pressure with the ball that led to the peno? I still like him in our team and what he brings to table, brain farts aside.

.

Coutinho was mostly fucking diabolical.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Whilst Moreno is ultimately to blame for their goals (his mistake was the last before the goals, that's the way footy works), the midfield is the real problem.

We have no one at all capable of keeping a cool head in the middle of the park. That's what we needed, a player to get stuck in & break up their play, make niggly fouls, put a foot on the ball & tell other players to keep possession for a while, tell Mane that it's not his job to keep dicking about in the middle of the pitch & to keep them stretched so when they do push up they have an outlet that also relieves the pressure.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a DM, although TBH I'd have taken even fucking Lucas coming on for the last third of the match, just someone who understands the game & is capable of actually tackling properly (how Henderson is so incredibly bad at tackling & blocking is completely beyond me, but he is).

 

[Silver Sean]

Whilst Moreno is ultimately to blame for their goals (his mistake was the last before the goals, that's the way footy works), the midfield is the real problem.

We have no one at all capable of keeping a cool head in the middle of the park. That's what we needed, a player to get stuck in & break up their play, make niggly fouls, put a foot on the ball & tell other players to keep possession for a while, tell Mane that it's not his job to keep dicking about in the middle of the pitch & to keep them stretched so when they do push up they have an outlet that also relieves the pressure.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a DM, although TBH I'd have taken even fucking Lucas coming on for the last third of the match, just someone who understands the game & is capable of actually tackling properly (how Henderson is so incredibly bad at tackling & blocking is completely beyond me, but he is).

This. Add a Hamann-type player and this team would be awesome. Bewildering that Klopp doesn't see it, and also how he failed to match them tactically after the break. Co-commentator on the game on steam I watched spent all half asking why no one was sitting on Banega. Excellent question, and one this brainless fart of a team will never fix in play. There is no one with eh street smarts to sort anything out.

 

[gkmacca]

As I've said before, in an actual game, with these defenders and these attackers, you need to exploit your positives to the nth degree in order to overcome your weaknesses. Yes, in the long term (hopefully from January onwards), we need to radically improve our defending, but here and now our most realistic chance of winning is by outscoring the opposition. And the fact is that we're wasting too many chances. If you put yourself in the mind of a Sevilla fan - when they're three nil down they're thinking, 'Maybe if we get one goal back there's a chance, but if we concede another it's over'. And we had loads of chances to get one, two or even three more goals, and kill the game in spite of our shambolic defending, and we wasted them with poor decisions, some awful technical errors and arrogant and selfish showboating. It's as if we get to three nil and then all the forwards think, 'Okay, job done, now we can have some fun,' and suddenly they seem to look for the flashest ways to score instead of being clinical. At the moment we have a poor defence and a very good attack, so our attack simply HAS to be ruthless for 90 minutes, not thirty.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Yep. I said in the match thread that we needed to come out second half at full speed, go all out at them to get a fourth, cos if they got a goal we could fold as they got the bit between their teeth. I really wish I'd have put some money on 3 all cos I was seriously considering it.

I then said to Brendan when he complained about us not being able to keep possession that this side cannot do that. Ideal world, yeah, we should have a CM or a DM capable of putting a foot on it & slowing the game down, but this side isn't capable of that, so we must go on the attack, trying to play clever footy just leaves us vulnerable, we should have made sure Mane stayed up front & continued to stretch them & give them something to worry about.

 

[Portly]

The front 4 did thier job, we scored 3 away from home. Why are you always looking for complex solutions to simple problems.


2 individual mistakes by the same player (Moreno) cost us.

I agree completely. If Moreno had not cost us two goals in the second half, we would have won and there would not have been all this criticism of the midfield and the rest of the defence.

Maybe Klopp should have done his homework and found out what Moreno did to us in the 2016 Europa League Final against the same side.

 

[Woland]

Jordan Henderson v Sevilla:

Less touches than Loris Karius
55% Passing
0 Tackles Won
5 Fouls
1 Booking

 

[FoxForceFive]

Jordan Henderson v Sevilla:

Less touches than Loris Karius
55% Passing
0 Tackles Won
5 Fouls
1 Booking

I have no issues with the fouls. We need someone fouling in the middle of the park to break up play (although I doubt they all came from those niggly kicks, cynical obstructions & pulls that situation demanded) but 0 tackles is unforgivable. He cannot tackle, at all, he can very occasionally do a last-ditch sliding tackle, but I don't think he's ever done a proper tackle whilst standing up, I certainly can't remember one, & his defensive positioning is so goddamn poor that he's rarely in a position to do it, he usually back off too far or tries to intercept what he thinks the pass the player may make is, & their midfielders ghost past him like he isn't even there.

 

[manwithnoname]

I don't think there's anything to be discussed that everyone doesn't know already.

We don't have any good goalkeepers, our defence is shit, we need a DM and the rest of our midfield is mediocre.

We have no idea how to dictate a game, or control tempo and Klopp has no fucking clue how to set up a team defensively. Again; nothing that hasn't been discussed a million times before.

It's always tempting to apportion blame to individuals, but not one player was anything other than fucking shit in that second half. Yes, Moreno was hugely culpable, and I'm sure it wasn't much of a surprise, even given his good form in the main this season. But the keeper was fucking rooted every time a ball came into the box at height - the cunt seems to shrivel on his line like a frozen turd - and has no presence. And obviously The Binman and Lovren were terrible, because they are. Gomez was once again positionally all over the fucking place at RB

So yeah, the midfield. While it's no secret that I've never been the biggest fan of Jordan Henderson ("Horrenderson" - sorry for that), at his best he's a useful player. It seems a long time since we saw his best (which is still 7/10), and even longer since we got it on a consistent basis. But God he was hapless against Sevilla. As expected, in the heat of the Sevilla resurgence, The Shithouse Ghost dissolved into the ether, as the entire midfield surrendered in such abject fashion that the whole team crumbled.

So I'm sick and tired of threads talking about Klopp's patience, and persistance and how he can improve players. I'm bored of cunts quacking away that maybe our "new shape" has shown he has finally learned how to defend, as yet another "corner is turned" only for the entire bus to career off the edge of a cliff and burn to ashes at the next one.

We've conceded more goals than any other team in the top 10 apart from fucking Watford. In the CL, only Leipzig and Quarabeg have conceded more than Liverpool.
We have conceded at least one goal in nearly 7 out of every 10 games we have played. And that stat goes up if you don't count the utterly useless Maribor.

Our defence is fucking shit. Still.
And Klopp hasn't a fucking CLUE how to fix it. Still.

 

[Woland]

The best bit is knowing we'll utterly bum Chelsea off the park and get beat three one

 

[manwithnoname]

The best bit is knowing we'll utterly bum Chelsea off the park and get beat three one

Thanks for reminding me

Fucking hell. I hate Chelsea

 

[manwithnoname]

We concede *at least* one goal in 70% of matches we play

SEVENTY FUCKING PER CENT

We've conceded three or more goals FOUR times this season already, and it's not even December.

 

[Portly]

I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories, but I find it a bit suspicious that both occasions I can think of, when Moreno blunders have cost us results, have been in big matches against his former club, Seville.

 

[juniormember]

We concede *at least* one goal in 70% of matches we play

SEVENTY FUCKING PER CENT

We've conceded three or more goals FOUR times this season already, and it's not even December.

We've also played 6 at home and conceded 1 goal in the league (by contrast 6 played away, 16 conceded. Yuk).
So I have hope for the weekend!

 

[davud graham]

I love how we all expect the deficiencies in our squad to be rectified in the next transfer window , ignoring the fact that these same deficiencies were there before the last window came and went. As well as the likelihood that we won't buy anyone in January as we usually don't and Klopp loves telling us that clubs don't want to sell in January as if it's some big insight he's had.
The keeper situation needed sorting and it wasn't, he even told us that the 3 goalkeepers would compete for a place in the team which seems like an exaggeration as he hasn't dropped any of them from the competitions they have been assigned. Oh apart from that one league game when Karius came in but he insisted that Mignolet hadn't been dropped but rested.
They pretended to solve the left back issue by buying Robertson who's had 2 very good games and an average one but been frozen out for the rest of the time. It's as if he can't be trusted as he doesn't or hasn't made any fuck ups for us and they are the only type of defenders we pick nowadays.
The centre half problem has been discussed at length but it doesn't excuse the glaring ineptitude of a club that has only 4 players capable of playing in that position and none of them are convincing starters , not one of them takes command of the back four and ensures that they play as a unit and not 4 individuals, 3 of them have dodgy injury records, none of them is convincing aerially and all of them panic when put under pressure.
Centre forward was and is a problem for us when Firmino (not a standard centre forward by any means) isn't playing well or not available at all. Sturridge and Ings are finished and Klopp must believe this or he'd play them more often so they should have been shown the door in the summer like Origi was. The lack of a genuine alternative to Firmino in the squad is ridiculous and only because of the incredible scoring spree of Salah' s have we gotten away with it. Solanke can't be judged properly as he hasn't had enough game time even though it's slightly worrying that he still hasn't got his first goal for us yet.
Centre midfield and especially the defensive side of the game is poor once again. I can't for the life of me understand why Klopp didn't want or get a defensive midfielder in. It's not as if he hasn't played with one with us before as last season Lucas got plenty of games and the season before that so did Stewart. If he didn't think they were sufficent then fair enough but to replace them with fuck all is just negligent and before someone says Naby Keita is the answer I'd like to disagree as he's more of an attacking midfielder that can tackle rather than a specialist defensive midfielder and he's not here until next season anyway so it does us sod all use now.

 

[LarryHagman]

Our midfield is a debacle. It's making our already average defence look worse. It has to be priority. Keita is on his way, great news, but we need more. No midfielders currently at the club are good enough.
Sort that, and the shape of the cunts, and we'll be much better off. It might even make the same defensive personnel we have now look better.

 

[LarryHagman]

I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories, but I find it a bit suspicious that both occasions I can think of, when Moreno blunders have cost us results, have been in big matches against his former club, Seville.

They know where to target. They know he's log.

 

[gkmacca]

I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories, but I find it a bit suspicious that both occasions I can think of, when Moreno blunders have cost us results, have been in big matches against his former club, Seville.

Didn't he even commit the same kind of stupid foul, in the same part of the pitch, in the Europa Final? I've tried to wipe the memory of that game from my mind, but as soon as he pushed that player on Tuesday I thought it seemed eerily familiar.

 

[Modo]

I have no issues with the fouls. We need someone fouling in the middle of the park to break up play (although I doubt they all came from those niggly kicks, cynical obstructions & pulls that situation demanded) but 0 tackles is unforgivable. He cannot tackle, at all, he can very occasionally do a last-ditch sliding tackle, but I don't think he's ever done a proper tackle whilst standing up, I certainly can't remember one, & his defensive positioning is so goddamn poor that he's rarely in a position to do it, he usually back off too far or tries to intercept what he thinks the pass the player may make is, & their midfielders ghost past him like he isn't even there.

Henderson is too "stand-off-ish" to be a DM. He rarely intercept, he reads the game poorly and he doesn't position himself well. I often see him just standing in front of players trying to block passing lanes instead of actually trying to win the ball.
People complained about Lucas excessive fouling, we would welcome that right about now imo.

 

[LarryHagman]

No we wouldn't.