We need a more compact shape. Change the formation and have two holding midfielders with Coutinho slightly further forward. But I can't see klopp changing his formation at all.
Klopp
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That's what he claimed after he was called out on it, in an attempt to cover his tracks, but I don't think that claim stands up. Have a look back at the original post in question - first one on p.2 of the thread. At the very least it's ambiguous on the question whether he'd actually prefer Rafa to Klopp straight away.
I think it runs even deeper than that Glen, we do see us with men behind the ball, so it's not as if we don't try to get compact when we need to. One of the beauties of our play is when we do that and then break with the ball at breakneck speed.
One of the problems that shouldn't be understated, is the clear instruction that a clearance should have some intended recipient. I lost count of the amount of times yesterday we tried to clear the ball, with cushion headers, tame volleys to teammates, etc. And the amount of times we surrendered possession in dangerous areas because of this, was frankly ridiculous. That's a clear instruction that was there under Rodgers too, that it doesn't matter about the pressure you are under, if you are clearing the ball, try to always get it to a team mate. It costs us. When the ball is playing ping-pong in and around our box, we're constantly trying to be too clever to create an opportunity to break on the counter. There's a time and place, and there's a time and place for a good old fashioned hoof, or kicking the ball into touch.
Moreno is making everyone look even worse than they are at the back, especially Lovren. His often pointless and sometimes downright counter-productive attempts at overlaps with Mane, who usually doesn't need him at all and sometimes finds his space constricted as a result of the idiot's presence, leave us with a back three playing as a back four. And to add to the injustice of it, Moreno's been getting off lightly whilst Lovren has been savaged. Anyone playing left CB alongside, in theory at least, that fool will look terrible. Put Milner or Robertson in there and least some stability and organisation might start to develop.
I wouldn’t play him against Sevilla again ever. We do seem to get turned over when he is on.
Omg you've exposed me... *shock*
Who cares...
Moreno being a shit defender shouldn't excuse Lovren's individual mistakes at all. His fuck up last night came from the opposite flank and was comically poor. Also Moreno being in the team at all is down to Klopp again though to be fair to Moreno and Klopp his attacking play has been quite good so far this season.
Unfortunately all of our defenders have their embarassing moments when they look more like sunday league players than premier league players.
Unfortunately all of our defenders have their embarassing moments when they look more like sunday league players than premier league players.
He deserves time and it is plain to see he is building a team....
This takes time when we arent bank rolled like the rest and cant necessarily attract every target.
Who would we have bought if Klopp werent here????
Where would we be if Klopp werent here???
This takes time when we arent bank rolled like the rest and cant necessarily attract every target.
Who would we have bought if Klopp werent here????
Where would we be if Klopp werent here???
hmmmmmmm
Were you in the crash test dummies?
Maybe ... I gave him the benefit of the doubt, especially as he didn't use that particular post to have a pop at Henderson
By the way, hardly anyone on here even knows how the Mighty Mouse theme goes, so I'd scrap that ridiculous Captain Sideways 'lyric' if I were you, before an attendance officer bundles you back to infants school.
Clyne, Coutinho, Lallana all players who would have started against Sevilla if fit. Not using that as an excuse but this team is balanced towards having the best players available. A fit Coutinho and lallana would have made our attack even better against Sevilla and then that penalty miss wouldn't have mattered. Clyne at right back would also have been a certainly as he has more experience.
Despite the fume klopp honestly did say when he joined it would take around four seasons to win the title. This is his third year including the first year when he played with house money.
I'm not saying he is a perfect but if he is hounded out because some believe he isn't making progress quickly enough he has more chances of joining a well run rich club like Munich than we have have chances of securing a better manager than him.
We have to be patient it will be a roller coaster. We aren't Real Madrid, Munich or Mancity we don't have their unlimited recources. Infact it's because if klopp that we able to turn the heads of VVD, OX and Lemar even though we didn't get all our targets. People want to play for Klopp. Compare that with Brendan Rogers even when he did make the champions league who did he get, what great players was he able to snare, Rogers had Zero pulling power..I respect the great Kenny Dalglish but let's be honest came back and couldn't do that much better. I also find talk of Rafa comming back to take over as silly, (does this forum go back that far I'd love to see the comments about Rafa then - from what I remember lots of people were also complaining about Rafa being stubborn, so that's just rose coloured glasses.
All I'm saying is that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. Expect turbulence during our progression towards eventual glory. If Klopp leaves I doubt we'll ever get a better chance.
Despite the fume klopp honestly did say when he joined it would take around four seasons to win the title. This is his third year including the first year when he played with house money.
I'm not saying he is a perfect but if he is hounded out because some believe he isn't making progress quickly enough he has more chances of joining a well run rich club like Munich than we have have chances of securing a better manager than him.
We have to be patient it will be a roller coaster. We aren't Real Madrid, Munich or Mancity we don't have their unlimited recources. Infact it's because if klopp that we able to turn the heads of VVD, OX and Lemar even though we didn't get all our targets. People want to play for Klopp. Compare that with Brendan Rogers even when he did make the champions league who did he get, what great players was he able to snare, Rogers had Zero pulling power..I respect the great Kenny Dalglish but let's be honest came back and couldn't do that much better. I also find talk of Rafa comming back to take over as silly, (does this forum go back that far I'd love to see the comments about Rafa then - from what I remember lots of people were also complaining about Rafa being stubborn, so that's just rose coloured glasses.
All I'm saying is that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. Expect turbulence during our progression towards eventual glory. If Klopp leaves I doubt we'll ever get a better chance.
[QUOTE="LarryHagman, post: 1618575, member: 381")
I'd kind of expect a coach who is lauded as much as he is to be able to improve any player/set-up, [/QUOTE]
This is the crux of it for me, he came with an enormous reputation, possibly as even the worlds most coveted coach, certainly one of them at any rate. His performance here and his reputation are simply not corresponding
I'd kind of expect a coach who is lauded as much as he is to be able to improve any player/set-up, [/QUOTE]
This is the crux of it for me, he came with an enormous reputation, possibly as even the worlds most coveted coach, certainly one of them at any rate. His performance here and his reputation are simply not corresponding
hmmmm hmmm hmmmm
I don't think Klopp is very good. But then I don't think any manager will win much under an ownership intent on making money and not making great teams.
I would have more faith had he signed a CB and a DM that we all knew we required but he didn't.
I am also alarmed by the constant switching of defenders. That is never how you become stronger at the back. If he has a 'best' 4 he needs to play them with whomever is first choice in goal.
We have had 6 or 7 games and the back 4 is never the same. So how do we train them to be a unit?
Mignolet taa klavan matip Moreno
Then karius Gomez lovren matip Moreno
And it's been the same since the season started
Have we played the same back 4 twice? They should be drilled and drilled and drilled to play together as a unit and only injury then should change that. For me it's the crux of the problem. Well the problem once you accept we fucked up the transfer window and bought a shiny new fucking sail for a boat with hole in the hull
I would have more faith had he signed a CB and a DM that we all knew we required but he didn't.
I am also alarmed by the constant switching of defenders. That is never how you become stronger at the back. If he has a 'best' 4 he needs to play them with whomever is first choice in goal.
We have had 6 or 7 games and the back 4 is never the same. So how do we train them to be a unit?
Mignolet taa klavan matip Moreno
Then karius Gomez lovren matip Moreno
And it's been the same since the season started
Have we played the same back 4 twice? They should be drilled and drilled and drilled to play together as a unit and only injury then should change that. For me it's the crux of the problem. Well the problem once you accept we fucked up the transfer window and bought a shiny new fucking sail for a boat with hole in the hull
Dude you should be embarassed acting like a spoiled kid here.
The success at Dortmund was a team effort of Klopp, Watzke, Zorc, and Minstdlat (Spelling?). To his credit, unlike other managers, Klopp has never tried to take credit on his own and has always acknowledged the importance of others.
Now we are expecting him to produce the same in a much tougher league minus the other three. There is no point changing him. The way we operate, our managers are set for failure.
Yes, there are defensive issues but Klopp definitely has overachieved given our net spend.
Only one man selecting him.
Yeah but what does that have to do what our defence? In the fact that he didn't buy a CB and that he doesn't seem to know how to organise us defensively? And lets be honest attracting the likes of VVD and Ox is hardly some great accomplishment and Lemar apparently wouldn't have minded us or Arsenal so it was hardly the klopp factor.
No one is saying to get rid of Klopp.
I think Klopp is a great manager who thinks reasonably long term. His single mindedness in the transfer market, and willingness to tolerate flaws in the squad till they can be thoroughly addressed is a double edged sword. On the one hand, if our purchases have shown us anything, buying some option B or C because we have to, at expense, has cost us many millions over the last decade. On the other hand, if your boat has a hole in it, after a couple of years...
Last year I think he had no sense that we could win the title, which is accurate, and was quite confident that we could get 4th, which we did. Most managers would be pretty afraid of that gamble, and try to leverage it for spending. He'd rather wait till he gets someone he actually wants, and he also has a realistic sense that we don't have money to spend all the time. This is like the criticism of Wenger over the years, as though he had no desire to spend money, when its clear there wasn't any. We'll spend, but he wants to get it right when we do. All of this seems to bank on the patience of the fans as much as anything, and on that point he's definitely wrong. Once again, managing this club is a unbelievably hard job due to the weight of expectation. He's as good as we've had in a while at dealing with it.
In terms of his poor defensive record... I think we've had some very well organized defensive teams in the past, and some great defenders. I think you put Hyppia and Carragher in this team a CB, or even our entire best back four, and they'll get goals scored on them. Our system of play will frequently leave CBs exposed on the counter, so you need some really good CBs, or to really honor possession, which is not what we do, with a direct and counterattacking style of play. Those goals will always be scored, I think its silly to not expect some of them.
The set piece defending and just general shitness on second balls is a mix of our height, poor coaching, and some really poor fundamental defending, some of which is just bad personnel. There's no way to coach out some of the idiocy, you just need to get a better defender. Matip was a good piece of business I think, Klavan, not so much. Lovren's key ability seems to be a lack of self awareness, he's the only one on planet earth who thinks he's really good. Klopp clearly knows all this, that's why he was after a great CB. I think he thinks anyone other than a really commanding dynamic CB isn't going to be enough of an improvement to make any difference.
Last year I think he had no sense that we could win the title, which is accurate, and was quite confident that we could get 4th, which we did. Most managers would be pretty afraid of that gamble, and try to leverage it for spending. He'd rather wait till he gets someone he actually wants, and he also has a realistic sense that we don't have money to spend all the time. This is like the criticism of Wenger over the years, as though he had no desire to spend money, when its clear there wasn't any. We'll spend, but he wants to get it right when we do. All of this seems to bank on the patience of the fans as much as anything, and on that point he's definitely wrong. Once again, managing this club is a unbelievably hard job due to the weight of expectation. He's as good as we've had in a while at dealing with it.
In terms of his poor defensive record... I think we've had some very well organized defensive teams in the past, and some great defenders. I think you put Hyppia and Carragher in this team a CB, or even our entire best back four, and they'll get goals scored on them. Our system of play will frequently leave CBs exposed on the counter, so you need some really good CBs, or to really honor possession, which is not what we do, with a direct and counterattacking style of play. Those goals will always be scored, I think its silly to not expect some of them.
The set piece defending and just general shitness on second balls is a mix of our height, poor coaching, and some really poor fundamental defending, some of which is just bad personnel. There's no way to coach out some of the idiocy, you just need to get a better defender. Matip was a good piece of business I think, Klavan, not so much. Lovren's key ability seems to be a lack of self awareness, he's the only one on planet earth who thinks he's really good. Klopp clearly knows all this, that's why he was after a great CB. I think he thinks anyone other than a really commanding dynamic CB isn't going to be enough of an improvement to make any difference.
love the fact he had us challenging for the title until last Jan
loved the fact we qualified for the CL
Love the fact he is brilliant against the other top teams
love the goal scoring attacking game
love the fact players want to play for us / him (it's been a long time since this was the case) this is a huge thing!
I appreciate the fact he doesn't sign anyone just to sign *someone*. Where has that got us before? outrageous spend with feck all trophy return
I have total confidence he'll sort out the defence.
I totally remember where we were when Rodgers led us out to a 5-0 thrashing by mighty Stoke at the end of that 2015 season and how crap we were under him eventually.
I remember how glad we were to get him, and how lucky we are to have the manager
Don't be getting on his back -the papers will follow suit - it's waaaay too early to be a big tit.
He has made tremendous fecking strides. I thought we were supposed to be liverpool fans? Less plastic? More seasoned, and more patience?
you know we've an excellent (but imperfect manager), so let's show how much better we are as fans with some long term vision
loved the fact we qualified for the CL
Love the fact he is brilliant against the other top teams
love the goal scoring attacking game
love the fact players want to play for us / him (it's been a long time since this was the case) this is a huge thing!
I appreciate the fact he doesn't sign anyone just to sign *someone*. Where has that got us before? outrageous spend with feck all trophy return
I have total confidence he'll sort out the defence.
I totally remember where we were when Rodgers led us out to a 5-0 thrashing by mighty Stoke at the end of that 2015 season and how crap we were under him eventually.
I remember how glad we were to get him, and how lucky we are to have the manager
Don't be getting on his back -the papers will follow suit - it's waaaay too early to be a big tit.
He has made tremendous fecking strides. I thought we were supposed to be liverpool fans? Less plastic? More seasoned, and more patience?
you know we've an excellent (but imperfect manager), so let's show how much better we are as fans with some long term vision
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I'm with you on some things, but there's zero rational reason to say the above. Also, my point is that even if the defense was optimized, we'd still leak far more goals than other systems of play. I'm fine with that point, but we really need some exceptionally talented individual defenders and better midfield balance.
For sure, attacking teams have that issue. We've been this with him before on this. He greatly improved the defense before, but we've regressed for the moment. 2 steps forward, one step back and all that
Our defence has gone backwards since klopp has been here.
But yet we're a far better team, beating the big teams, and qualifying for the CL. Let's give him patience.
How was his defensive record during the good times at Dortmund? Anyone?
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