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No place for morality?

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Oncy

Oncy

Look up to the sky and there I be
Honorary Member
I notice Nile Ranger scored for Blackpool today.
Isnt he the lad seen on film beating some girl up?

In the past weve seen the likes of Lee Hughes bounce straight back into football after a spell in prison for Manslaughter and countless other cases of just abhorrant human beings being given a clean slate again and again by football clubs. Is this ok? Will that never change?
 
It's NOT ok. It will NEVER change.

If the talent's there, society will simply continue to forgive (if not forget) the transgression... Just l;ook at how many people STILL defend Suarez' actions as 'not that bad, compared to _______' this past summer. Think they'd have had the same opinion about Djimi Traore?
 
I read an article in that he said 'this is it, this is my last chance". There are so many pieces of shite out there yet they all seem to find a home somewhere.
 
When you've got an FA and Premier League which are full of money-driven, sexist and racist blokes who promote, mainly for pragmatic commercial reasons, anti-sexism and anti-racism campaigns, the chances of real probity in the government of the game are going to remain painfully slim. There's nothing fatalistic about it, but until the authorities are cleaned up the game will stay depressingly grubby.
 
Herr Onceared said:
I notice Nile Ranger scored for Blackpool today.
Isnt he the lad seen on film beating some girl up?

In the past weve seen the likes of Lee Hughes bounce straight back into football after a spell in prison for Manslaughter and countless other cases of just abhorrant human beings being given a clean slate again and again by football clubs. Is this ok? Will that never change?
Click to expand...

It's a funny one. You commit a crime and should it stay with you forever? Or are we entitled to second chances? Lee Hughes committed his crime and served the time deemed appropriate by the state.

My wife worked for a charity which housed ex-cons and helped them get back on their feet after leaving prison. These guys are shunned and forgotten by society and it's no wonder re-offending rates are so high. Their conviction stays with them forever but not all of them are bad to the bone. For some it was just the wrong place/crowd at the wrong time and ultimately society doesn't benefit by casting these guys aside.

So, after hearing some of my wife's stories, I am pleased football gives these guys a route back into life - a chance to start again. Some of them may not deserve it, mind, but I think the vast majority of people are inherently good. That's not to say Lee Hughes isn't a massive cunt for what he did, though.
 
Look at the FA and Premier League bosses: a track record among their executives of harrassing female employees (Palios), sexist remarks (Scudamore) and racist remarks (Scudamore). So when Mackay gets exposed for sexist/racist emails, what do you get? Pure hypocrisy mixed with acute embarrassment and an impatient need to fudge the issue because they know there's even more scandal lurking behind their own doors. Referees? David Elleray ('You look rather tanned,' he said to a black coach 'Have you been down a coal mine?') gets let off for blatant racist remarks by a body that purports to have zero tolerance for racist remarks. You won't improve things with governing bodies that reflect precisely the same problems that they're supposed to be policing in the game as a whole. Rehabilitate people by all means but at present it's like the mafia being the body that monitors the rehabilitation.
 
Oliver Twist said:
It's a funny one. You commit a crime and should it stay with you forever? Or are we entitled to second chances? Lee Hughes committed his crime and served the time deemed appropriate by the state.

My wife worked for a charity which housed ex-cons and helped them get back on their feet after leaving prison. These guys are shunned and forgotten by society and it's no wonder re-offending rates are so high. Their conviction stays with them forever but not all of them are bad to the bone. For some it was just the wrong place/crowd at the wrong time and ultimately society doesn't benefit by casting these guys aside.

So, after hearing some of my wife's stories, I am pleased football gives these guys a route back into life - a chance to start again. Some of them may not deserve it, mind, but I think the vast majority of people are inherently good. That's not to say Lee Hughes isn't a massive cunt for what he did, though.
Click to expand...

Top post. It's undeniable that these guys have done serious wrong, but for a variety of reasons (avoiding reoffending being an important one as Oliver says) there does need to be a way for them to pick up the threads of a life again after their release, and footballers are often not capable of doing so by any other route.
 
Oliver Twist said:
It's a funny one. You commit a crime and should it stay with you forever? Or are we entitled to second chances? Lee Hughes committed his crime and served the time deemed appropriate by the state.

My wife worked for a charity which housed ex-cons and helped them get back on their feet after leaving prison. These guys are shunned and forgotten by society and it's no wonder re-offending rates are so high. Their conviction stays with them forever but not all of them are bad to the bone. For some it was just the wrong place/crowd at the wrong time and ultimately society doesn't benefit by casting these guys aside.

So, after hearing some of my wife's stories, I am pleased football gives these guys a route back into life - a chance to start again. Some of them may not deserve it, mind, but I think the vast majority of people are inherently good. That's not to say Lee Hughes isn't a massive cunt for what he did, though.
Click to expand...

Good post.

Ultimately it boils down to whether we view prison as punishment or rehabilitation (or both). Lots of people seem to view it as simply punishment, in which case it's a massive waste of money and ineffective. We'd be better off letting the victim or victim's family take them in a windowless room to do as they please. If it's rehabilitation, again it's a massive waste of money and ineffective. We're making the likes of G4S and Serco filthy rich for half-arsedly delivering bullshit qualifications that do fuck all for them when they get out. And at the same time removing stuff like toe-by-toe and prison libraries, which could actually genuinely help some of them because they literally can't even read.

When the outside world requires a job to pay bills and rent, money for food and essentials, but you can't get a job because of your record, having a roof over your head, 2 meals a day, guaranteed employment and no stress of how to run your life might seem an attractive prospect.

And that's fucked up
 
Oliver Twist said:
It's a funny one. You commit a crime and should it stay with you forever? Or are we entitled to second chances? Lee Hughes committed his crime and served the time deemed appropriate by the state.

My wife worked for a charity which housed ex-cons and helped them get back on their feet after leaving prison. These guys are shunned and forgotten by society and it's no wonder re-offending rates are so high. Their conviction stays with them forever but not all of them are bad to the bone. For some it was just the wrong place/crowd at the wrong time and ultimately society doesn't benefit by casting these guys aside.

So, after hearing some of my wife's stories, I am pleased football gives these guys a route back into life - a chance to start again. Some of them may not deserve it, mind, but I think the vast majority of people are inherently good. That's not to say Lee Hughes isn't a massive cunt for what he did, though.
Click to expand...


Depends on the crime innit.

'magine Lee Hughes was one of them paedo's. All fair and well to do the crime/pay the time but you'd be a bit nerve if he walked out the tunnel holding your kid's hand before they do the line-up's wouldn't ya?
 
I'm not sure I agree with the "society doesn't really benefit" slant. There are plenty of cases of sex offenders, murderers, thieves etc who go straight back out and re-offend, after having shit loads of tax payers money pumped into rehabilitating them. And it's not simply because the support isn't there, some people are just inherently fucked up.

I do agree that there are genuine victims of "the wrong place, at the wrong time", but that doesn't really help their victims, does it? And we all know that the judicial system is fucked, so it's pointless putting faith in punishment being fair.

I find it difficult to then be able to say, "well they've served their time", I've seen first hand the "time" served for some pretty fucking horrible, unjustifiable crimes, and the cunt was living it large again after 6 months of what was initially a 24 month sentence (which in itself was a joke).

We're talking about genuine thugs here, not just some poor kid who had to steal to pay the bills, and they're getting rewarded in one of the best paid jobs in the country, while the rest of us soft cunts struggle to put a meal on the table.
 
What does rehabilitation actually mean either in football or wider society?

Literal meaning is to return to its original state which obviously is not possible in either context.

The opening post asks if there is a place for morality, it's a noble aim but it fly's in the face of competition for monetary reward. It's like asking for a return of corinthian spirit.

Better to have well understood consequences like 3 strikes and out. All 'solutions' are imperfect but I'd rather eliminate value judgments by unnaccountable bodies that satisfy no-one.
 
...which is what you've got in the criminal law system, and in the Parole Board which makes decisions about early release. And there does need to be a mechanism for such decision-making case by case - automatic "3 strikes"policies can lead to terrible miscarriages of justice.

Besides, I respectfully disagree with Oncy's implied definition of the term "morality" as one which would demand permanent condemnation and ostracism. In my idea of morality there has to be room for rehabilitation and forgiveness when appropriate. As someone whose closest living relatives are mainly female I totally share the revulsion at crimes like these, but IMHO that's not a satisfactory basis for making practical, still less moral, choices.
 
I'd say 3 strikes is more suitable for a sporting environment as decisions don't lead to loss of liberty.

Of course loss of ability to pursue one's business may be an injudicious outcome of a 3 strikes policy but the individual affected does have recourse to civil law for redress either privately or through the PFA.
 
Remember the outrage when we nearly signed Bowyer? There are some players even I would struggle to support in a red shirt and he would have been one of them.
 
Molby, in prison for a while for drink driving. The club stood by him, he sorted himself out quickly, never looked back. You don't expect offenders being ostracised but you do expect real contrition, serious re-education and practical effort to earn rehabilitation. Ironically, many clubs are good at this, whilst their supposed 'higher' authorities are absolutely crap at it, whilst pompously wielding the stick.
 
Football is not a bastion for morality. Its a win at all cost mentality. There are a few exceptions but those are few and far between.
 
mark1975 said:
I'm not sure I agree with the "society doesn't really benefit" slant. There are plenty of cases of sex offenders, murderers, thieves etc who go straight back out and re-offend, after having shit loads of tax payers money pumped into rehabilitating them. And it's not simply because the support isn't there, some people are just inherently fucked up.
Click to expand...

If re-offending rates are high - and they are - surely that indicates the system is broken somewhere.The fact there are charities out there which re-house or rehabilitate ex-cons says to me the gov't doesn't put enough resources into it themselves. That is absurd, in my book. What do they think will happen to these people when they chuck them back onto the street after 5 years in prison?

And I struggle with the general gist of your argument there, anyway. You are basically saying society benefits somehow by not attempting to rehabilitate, rehouse ex-cons, based on a number (however large) that fall through the system, ending up back in prison. Surely that indicates a need to fix the system, not abandon it altogether. It's a view held by Tories when talking of social welfare: Too many people defraud the system, it doesn't work, so let's just dismantle it. And they are.

Governments - or the people who vote them in - are short-sighted in the main. Investing in health and education (and in this case the penal system) will only benefit society long term. Not to mention save it money.
 
My strong suspicion is that the Tories would be dismantling the system anyway, as part of the drive to privatise everything which began over 30 years ago under Thatch. Too many of their top people don't give a flying one for anything other than enriching their pals and taking their own cut from that. I'm driven to this conclusion by the fact that what you (and others) say on this and related subjects is so plainly true that I simply don't believe people as bright as the most senior Tories in government don't actually realise it. The fact that they press on regardless shows they have ulterior motives.

.
 
Judge Jules said:
My strong suspicion is that the Tories would be dismantling the system anyway, as part of the drive to privatise everything which began over 30 years ago under Thatch. Too many of their top people don't give a flying one for anything other than enriching their pals and taking their own cut from that. I'm driven to this conclusion by the fact that what you (and others) say on this and related subjects is so plainly true that I simply don't believe people as bright as the most senior Tories in government don't actually realise it. The fact that they press on regardless shows they have ulterior motives.

.
Click to expand...

They already are dismantling the system. Prisons are massively underfunded at the minute, and only set to get worse. You've already got privately run prisons which are failing, dangerously understaffed and completely inadequate for the job they're supposed to do - to the extent that they're sitting half empty whilst others are bursting, because they're simply not ready to take prisoners.

Obviously some people will take the hardline view of "fuck 'em, they did the crime, they should pay" when they hear the stories of prisons that haven't had running water or electricity for days on end - but even if that's your view, it's completely unfair on the screws as well. They simply don't have the resources to deal with the shit coming their way as a result. Prison riots are on the up, and until it goes truly fucking mental at one and a few of the screws get killed, they're gonna keep doing the same shit.

Sadly, I think that day might not be too far away.

And that's before you even get into the privatisation of probation
 
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