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Now what? (Saints post-match)

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rurikbird

rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
At the moment it's feeling like we can't do anything right. 2 points in 3 games, blanked in front of goal for two games in a row, injuries, players making mental mistakes, consistently bad refereeing (while some of our rivals seem to get all the breaks), even Klopp seems to have lost the plot somewhat. Just a few weeks ago it seemed like no one can get close to us; now suddenly the walls are caving in.

All that said, I think it would be ridiculous to start giving up on the title now. Every team this season has gone through a bad patch: 2 months ago it seemed Pep and City were phoning it in, Ole was on the verge of a sack, while Spurs and Chelsea were flying high... There will be more twists and turns, I'm sure. What's clear, however, is that we need to turn it around and quickly or a title challenge can quickly become a battle for 4th in this unpredictable season.

Perhaps Klopp had a bit more of a long-term thinking in his mind in starting Ox and trying Hendo in defense – trying to see if he can find a creative spark from somewhere. In the end it didn't work, but credit to him for making the correct substitutions to bring in Shaqiri for Ox and to sub off the horribly out-of-form TAA. The United game is suddenly becoming the biggest one of the season and I hope Klopp has some kind of special tactical tweak he is keeping in reserve for that game, because we can't win when we attack so predictably like we've been doing lately.
 
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rurikbird said:
At the moment it's feeling like we can't do anything right. 2 points in 3 games, 2 games in a row without scoring, injuries, what seems like consistently bad refereeing (while some of our rivals seem to get all the breaks), even Klopp seems to have lost the plot somewhat. Just a few weeks ago it seemed like no one can get close to us; now suddenly the walls are caving in.

All that said, I think it would be ridiculous to start giving up on the title now. Every team this season has gone through a bad patch: 2 months ago it seemed Pep and City were phoning it in, Ole was on the verge of a sack, while Spurs and Chelsea were flying high... There will be more twists and turns, I'm sure. What's clear, however, is that we need to turn it around and quickly or a title challenge can quickly become a battle for 4th in this unpredictable season.

Perhaps Klopp had a bit more of a long-term thinking in his mind in starting Ox and trying Hendo in defense – trying to see if he can find a creative spark from somewhere. In the end it didn't work, but credit to him for making the correct substitutions to bring in Shaqiri for Ox and to sub off the horribly out-of-form TAA. The United game is suddenly becoming the biggest one of the season and I hope Klopp has some kind of special tactical tweak he is keeping in reserve for that game, because we can't win when we attack so predictably like we've been doing lately.
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  • It needs speeding up without hesitation and before the opposition get into their defensive positions. That is where it is going wrong - too much waity waity, and not enough passy passy quickie quickie
  • Play for 4th is the only thing we can do - title goodbye - over and done with this season.
  • Cannot get title without VVD and one other defender to assist. By today's standards we played without a recognized central defender - is this a historical first ? - please put into record books.
 
I also wonder if the decision to give TAA the armband against Midtjylland and Salah's subsequent reaction is what fucked up the team morale – it was startling to hear Klopp come out later and say that maybe he should have made a different decision and that fallout can also explain Trent's horrible run of form thereafter (with the Palace game a notable exception). It's amazing how much damage a dead rubber game in a won CL group can do...
 
rurikbird said:
I also wonder if the decision to give TAA the armband in the Midtjylland and Salah's subsequent reaction is what fucked up the team morale – it was startling to hear Klopp come out later and say that maybe he should have made a different decision and that fallout can also explain Trent's horrible run of form. It's amazing how much damage a dead rubber game in a won CL group can do...
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Trent has been poor all year though? Horrendous against Villa. Has made 2 assists all season. Let's not look for things that aren't there.

What's happened is playing the same 11 each week (and funnelling them around in different positions) has caught up to us.

None of us have any idea of what 11 we'll be playing and in which positions next week. Particularly in the centre of the park. That's not been the case previously.
 
Our decision making in the final third, our finishing and our concentration seem lost at the minute.
The players look fatigued and out of ideas.

Its staggering the amount of refereeing calls that are going against us.
The penalties, fouls on Salah and Milner. Insane. Frustrating.

How do we approach the Villa game now? The front three definetly need a rest.
 
We need to change tac, this 80% posession strategy is obviously about controlling games and conserving our legs, but the effect its having is choking off any space for our attacking players to run into and allowing opponents to sit in well drilled banks of 4.

We havent played well consistently since about February last year. Whether thats form, fatigue, injuries or some combination of the 3 I dont know but we clearly havent been as sharp or hungry. Too many flat performances, too many games weve scored and then just switched off.

It feels like the false positive at the start of the seas was watching Utd and City falter, but in reality they had no preseason and were seriously undercooked fornthe first few weeks. Now both of them look stronger and more formidable than us. The match in 2 weeks is the turning point now, if we dont win it I think we are playing for 3rd.

The squad needs to be purged of perennial injured bench warmers who dont offer anything as it leaves us dependent on running the same core group of players into the ground.
 
Shadey said:
The bad injuries have caught up with us, we need central defenders in this window as we miss fab in midfield.
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@Shadey - I had another peri peri pizza with chickens wings and chips, that is how much build up there was for me in this game, look what happened. If only I can remember what I had eaten before the Crystal Palace game. You are right though - we need some central defenders.
 
I think, more than most teams, the lack of time and opportunity for training is having a serious effect. Pep Ljinder's mantra for the past two years has been, 'We beat the opposition during the week in training'. Well, players are hardly training at present, they're mainly resting and recovering. As a consequence, there are 'off by heart' routines on show but no sharpness, no power and no tweaks for different teams. It's a team on autopilot.

There are also some alarming drops in individual form. Trent, especially, is in shockingly bad form. Whatever is up with him, it has to be sorted out before he gets anywhere near the first team again. He needs that kind of shock to the system.

Also, the front three have never seemed so incoherent. They don't seem to talk to each other, shout at each other, work with each other. Salah is in a world of his own. Mane is gripped by some personal sense of injustice. And Bobby is flitting in and out of sorts from one minute to the next. They really need to be made to feel like a trio again.

And the squad as a whole has probably just hit a wall. They've played at such intensity for two long years, this was always going to be a danger. I was saying it last summer whilst most in here were shouting me down and insisting all would be well. The strain of fighting so hard is immense, and we needed a proper break and reinforcements. Well, we didn't get the former and we didn't get much of the latter. No team was more likely to be jaded. And we're jaded. Klopp included.

And we're genuinely weakened by injuries. You can't ignore that. It's been brutal.

So what can we do? Buy at least two more of the players we should have bought in the summer, if FSG see sense. Write off the FA Cup, in spite of the new wave of bad publicity we'll get, so that we can rest for a few days. And have a seriously intense session of team bonding again, where some home truths are told.

Then we have to fight on.
 
Sounds like Klopp has given a bollocking to the players. They weren’t ready from the start and too many poor decisions.
 
I hope I'm wrong, but I feel the squad is falling apart somewhat. Be it injuries, morale, mental tiredness, fatigue. We're just not on it. Our game requires such mental resilience, effort, concentration that its just hard to sustain over a prolonged period, which is now 2.5 years minimum.

Impossible but I think a break in the league and the opportunity to have a small getaway would do the world of good for us right now.
 
Is it FA cup then United?

I don't think too many would question some serious first team sessions while the kids play the FA Cup.

Winning against United could be the launch pad.
 
gkmacca said:
I think, more than most teams, the lack of time and opportunity for training is having a serious effect. Pep Ljinder's mantra for the past two years has been, 'We beat the opposition during the week in training'. Well, players are hardly training at present, they're mainly resting and recovering. As a consequence, there are 'off by heart' routines on show but no sharpness, no power and no tweaks for different teams. It's a team on autopilot.

There are also some alarming drops in individual form. Trent, especially, is in shockingly bad form. Whatever is up with him, it has to be sorted out before he gets anywhere near the first team again. He needs that kind of shock to the system.

Also, the front three have never seemed so incoherent. They don't seem to talk to each other, shout at each other, work with each other. Salah is in a world of his own. Mane is gripped by some personal sense of injustice. And Bobby is flitting in and out of sorts from one minute to the next. They really need to be made to feel like a trio again.

And the squad as a whole has probably just hit a wall. They've played at such intensity for two long years, this was always going to be a danger. I was saying it last summer whilst most in here were shouting me down and insisting all would be well. The strain of fighting so hard is immense, and we needed a proper break and reinforcements. Well, we didn't get the former and we didn't get much of the latter. No team was more likely to be jaded. And we're jaded. Klopp included.

And we're genuinely weakened by injuries. You can't ignore that. It's been brutal.

So what can we do? Buy at least two more of the players we should have bought in the summer, if FSG see sense. Write off the FA Cup, in spite of the new wave of bad publicity we'll get, so that we can rest for a few days. And have a seriously intense session of team bonding again, where some home truths are told.

Then we have to fight on.
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On your points:

  • Training time and recovery - I actually don't understand this at all based on evidence of past seasons and even this season, where there have been large gaps between actual games we seem to consistently lose sharpness, happens every time. The gap between Villa and United game scares the shit out of me actually because I have no idea the type of Liverpool display we can expect.
  • The squad being tired after two long seasons - this is very logical and I had such fears as well, but it's actually more than just two because we fought a very hard campaign the season before where we went to the CL final and played some ball breaking football - was not easy doing that. Certainly with TAA - being so young he maybe feeling it, playing at such a high level and getting to those CL finals and having to play so consistently - I don't think we sometimes appreciate how much pressure that can be on a young man.
  • Injuries - not so much the midfield - that is a limiting one, but the defensive injuries without doubt - enough has been said but the effect overall on midfield and attack by VVD/Gomez/Matip partnership is actually quite immense and VVD is the rock foundation of this team. There is no argument to be had here it's just the truth and I think without doubt if Alisson went missing right now - we would be truly screwed up.
  • What Can We Do ? - FA Cup is not an option for us, we can participate and try our luck, and maybe if we beat Villa the cup games can be used to keep the rhythm of the team churning over. But without doubt the CB injuries have highlighted that we should have got a replacement for Lovren, and the right thing to do now is buy someone with at least organisational/pace as the main asset. But I have hope that Ox, Shaq, Keita, and Thiago will when fully fit and have continuous games play a huge part, although i must admit where the fuck did Klopp do with Mini ? - did he die on the bus back from Crystal Palace ? - is he still alive ?

Fight On ? - absolutely if we can, but I fear we are only capable of challenging for a top 4 place "right now" - that is the level of our form.
 
You don't understand the first point? It's how we won the league. It's not about time, it's about coaching.
 
In terms of fatigue/mental exhaustion it feels like we are about 12 months behind City. They hit the wall last year after two seasons of sustained brilliance. We look like weve hit the wall now after roughly the same output, sure we can turn it on for a game every once in a while but generally we look very flat all across the squad. Weve actually had a decent amount of rest a few times this season and looked worse when we came back, that coupled with our strong results against top teams and poor performances against teams we are much better than makes it feel like our focus has gone.
 
We are so slow at moving the ball forwards. Our midfielders have long surrendered any kind of creative or attacking responsibility and are content to dither around until Robbo makes his umpteenth gut busting burst from LB, or we laboriously shift the ball from side to side before expecting either full back to put the ball on a plate for our front three.

We're so fucking obsessed with controlling the game, that even when we regain possession these days, we rarely look to exploit the spaces in the fashion that made us so exhilarating to watch just two/three seasons ago.

Don't think that opponents are somehow simply content to sit in two banks of four for the whole of 90 minutes, but only when facing us. They also don't then dream up a brand new game plan in the space of the couple of days between matches (which in the last month or so, is one or two days less than we have) to play a more open game against other "big teams" like Utd, Spurs and Arse. They are simply exploiting the spaces behind bad defences with better players, like we used to do.
 
i_rushie said:
We are so slow at moving the ball forwards. Our midfielders have long surrendered any kind of creative or attacking responsibility and are content to dither around until Robbo makes his umpteenth gut busting burst from LB, or we laboriously shift the ball from side to side before expecting either full back to put the ball on a plate for our front three.

We're so fucking obsessed with controlling the game, that even when we regain possession these days, we rarely look to exploit the spaces in the fashion that made us so exhilarating to watch just two/three seasons ago.

Don't think that opponents are somehow simply content to sit in two banks of four for the whole of 90 minutes, but only when facing us. They also don't then dream up a brand new game plan in the space of the couple of days between matches (which in the last month or so, is one or two days less than we have) to play a more open game against other "big teams" like Utd, Spurs and Arse. They are simply exploiting the spaces behind bad defences with better players, like we used to do.
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I've made a similar albeit less detailed point recently. Our game has become to dominate all aspects of the game and then to rely on crosses from the fullbacks or a moment of magic. Mane, Salah and Firmino consistently have no space to operate in, because we've trapped the opposition deep in their own half. Stop our fullbacks and you stop Liverpool. Consequently Klopp has to start adding some creativity to our play, working out a means to give Salah and Mane more space. It all reminds me when Rodgers went all possession focused and we created fuck all for ninety minutes. I fear we can't see the wood for the trees at the moment.
 
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We need more captains when we play like this. For me it means Hendo and Milner in midfield, shouting and screaming every 5 minutes. Hendo was concentrating too much at how to play CB that we really missed a captain in midfield.

Send Lewtas out with the u23s on Friday and give Klopp and Lijnders a full 10 days with the lads to get them firing for the next weeks.

If we can stay close to the top until Jota is back and we avoid more injuries I still think we can win the league
 
Yesterday got me down ...
It's been a while since footy made me go to bed just dejected and deflated.
 
Frogfish said:
Actually that's been the case for me over the past month as I see our PL hopes dropping lower and lower.
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I still think we have a chance to win it, but it will take an investment in a CB ... and Klopp being a bit more cut throat with strugglers (dropping a player isn't a death sentence) and flexible with his formation/substitutes (glad he made a sub early yesterday - I guess that may be a start?).

I don't know if we'll get either ... and that means fighting for the title may mean fighting for top 4, and that's no guarantee if we're relying on two CMs to be our CBs the majority of the season ... Just won't work.
 
LeTallecWiz said:
Yesterday got me down ...
It's been a while since footy made me go to bed just dejected and deflated.
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Me too. Felt finished with it for a while and will take a break until the FA cup game maybe even the Utd game.
Those refereeing decisions just made me hate football.
 
Hansern said:
Me too. Felt finished with it for a while and will take a break until the FA cup game maybe even the Utd game.
Those refereeing decisions just made me hate football.
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I won't be able to watch the FA Cup game ... and I'm glad.
 
It's frustrating because I / we have been warning against this for ages now. You can't keep going with the same group of players running themselves into the ground.

Jota was a step in the right direction but not enough (and now we don't even have him).

You can only escape underinvestment for so long.
 
Jota's injury has probably cost us points in all the games where we've dropped them in so far. Awful.
 
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