• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Rebuilding the midfield

Status
Not open for further replies.

rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
Up until the period when things began to unravel last year, our midfield has been a pretty settled unit with a clear pecking order. Fabinho, Gini and Hendo was the go-to trio of senior pros, especially for the big games, with Keita, Thiago, Jones and Milner filling in depending on situation and availability. Now everything seems a lot more confusing; the only certainty is Fabinho being the best choice at DM, but the rest of the spots are up for grabs.

When both are fit and in form, do you choose Keita or Thiago at LCM? Does Hendo still have the legs to play in his more attacking RCM role and would he be more effective than Elliott there? What about Hendo playing in the "Gini role" at LCM, the one position he has not been asked to play much before? Where does Curtis Jones fit in, if anywhere? Should Fabinho and Thiago be asked to reprise their successful double-pivot role from the end of last season or was it just a temporary fix? Do we need to aim for a physically dominant midfield unit again or does the declining efficiency of the front 3 necessitate more goals and creativity to come from this area?

Frankly I have no idea about the answers to any of these questions and it will be fascinating to see how Klopp will solve this puzzle. Numbers-wise we definitely have enough in midfield and there is plenty of variety and quality here too, but can this all come together into a new top-class, dominant midfield unit? Together with Mane's form, I think the answer to this question will be the defining factor to our success or lack thereof this season.
 
Last edited:
The double pivot was surely just to cover our inexperienced CBs at the end of the season. I doubt we'd go there again with our CB cover this season,

Fabinho is clearly the only irreplaceable (and best) midfielder we have on our books. He's a cert for any best XI. Hendo seems to have become more dispensable. Thiago was brought in last season to be one of the three starters and at times showed it and at others didn't. However with other players returning and in their preferred positions,and Thiago over his injuries, I can see him being given an extended run in a more settled side, which should suit him and hopefully see him hit top form ... and since you can't bench your captain then Hendo will partner him. Elliott and Naby (on different sides of the pitch) are now next in line. Naby a bit more versatile as he can and has played further back too.

Jones seems to have slipped out of favour a bit. Of course the starting team is usually a reflection of training ground performance, so something seems amiss there and his appearances will likely depend on how well Naby plays when he gets a chance. Milner is now a backup, no disgrace at his age and a great player to have in reserve. Until proven otherwise Fabs (DM), Thiago (LM) and Hendo (RM) is our de facto first choice.
 
I don’t think Klopp would have any issue with dropping the captain if another player was more effective in his position; I don’t think that’s a consideration at all. At Dortmund his chosen captain was Sebastian Kehl who was 3rd or 4th choice in a 2-man midfield. If Hendo ends up playing less, this will just mean Van Dijk wearing the armband more often, which is not such a bad state of affairs.
 
I don’t think Klopp would have any issue with dropping the captain if another player was more effective in his position; I don’t think that’s a consideration at all. At Dortmund his chosen captain was Sebastian Kehl who was 3rd or 4th choice in a 2-man midfield. If Hendo ends up playing less, this will just mean Van Dijk wearing the armband more often, which is not such a bad state of affairs.
Whats your thoughts on Ward-Prowse? He is very much a Hendo-esk type player. He is also the Prems best free kick taker.
 
There were a few mentions off Elliotts positioning and play interfering with Salahs usual directness, maybe making him less effective. I felt the same but it’s incredibly early days for the trio of Trent, Salah and Elliott on the right.

Just a random thought, any chance of Elliott going to the left and actually aiding Mane by ‘overplaying’ if Mane has lost directness / pace and can’t do it by himself anymore?
 
There were a few mentions off Elliotts positioning and play interfering with Salahs usual directness, maybe making him less effective. I felt the same but it’s incredibly early days for the trio of Trent, Salah and Elliott on the right.

Just a random thought, any chance of Elliott going to the left and actually aiding Mane by ‘overplaying’ if Mane has lost directness / pace and can’t do it by himself anymore?

For some reason, our system under Klopp has always been lopsided - RCM is almost always more attacking than LCM, with very rare exceptions. I’d love someone more knowledgeable explain why that is the case.
 
I thought Wijnaldum was generally that LCM and didn’t have that attacking dynamism.
 
For some reason, our system under Klopp has always been lopsided - RCM is almost always more attacking than LCM, with very rare exceptions. I’d love someone more knowledgeable explain why that is the case.
I think Salah makes a lot more runs infield than Mane, so there is naturally more space. Also, Gini was molded as a LCM and always played there and was encouraged to be more defensive
 
Up until the period when things began to unravel last year, our midfield has been a pretty settled unit with a clear pecking order. Fabinho, Gini and Hendo was the go-to trio of senior pros, especially for the big games, with Keita, Thiago, Jones and Milner filling in depending on situation and availability. Now everything seems a lot more confusing; the only certainty is Fabinho being the best choice at DM, but the rest of the spots are up for grabs.

When both are fit and in form, do you choose Keita or Thiago at LCM? Does Hendo still have the legs to play in his more attacking RCM role and would he be more effective than Elliott there? What about Hendo playing in the "Gini role" at LCM, the one position he has not been asked to play much before? Where does Curtis Jones fit in, if anywhere? Should Fabinho and Thiago be asked to reprise their successful double-pivot role from the end of last season or was it just a temporary fix? Do we need to aim for a physically dominant midfield unit again or does the declining efficiency of the front 3 necessitate more goals and creativity to come from this area?

Frankly I have no idea about the answers to any of these questions and it will be fascinating to see how Klopp will solve this puzzle. Numbers-wise we definitely have enough in midfield and there is plenty of variety and quality here too, but can this all come together into a new top-class, dominant midfield unit? Together with Mane's form, I think the answer to this question will be the defining factor to our success or lack thereof this season.

Great thread rurikbird - yes definitely Fabinho the main man for midfield now. However, the loss of Gini to me is still obvious in the current midfield setup - it has weakened us somewhat, and I think it will be more obvious when we have to play the likes of City/Man United. If we had signed Bissouma - I think we would have everything we could ask for in terms of our midfield given our boss does not seem to think that highly of creative types. There will be incredible pressure on Hendo this season to be fit and play games to support Fabinho in his holding role and personally I don't think he will be fit enough to last or plays enough games.

  • I think Elliot is playing really well but he is being somewhat shackled by either something he has been told or feels the pressure from the senior players not to express or do stuff when he is in a better position than they are.
  • For that reason I believe there is definitely a place for Curtis in this team as another potential creative and ball playing midfielder with a focus on improving his in game thinking. I would like to see more of him if both Fabinho and Henderson/Milner play.
  • Thiago - I don't think he should ever be considered as a potential DM, I feel very nervous when he is on the pitch as the 2nd workhorse to Fabinho or Henderson. His role should be one of creative midfielder with his passing range. So definitely No on the double pivot role.
  • As for Naby - I have no fucking idea why we signed him and what purpose he has. It's all lost on me now, to the point I have no idea what his role is, pretty much like what most Man United fans probably think about Fred's role.
  • Ox - again there is a place for him, but again he should only play if Fabinho and Henderson are playing. He should contribute more in terms of goals and take on players more when he plays.
I think Klopp will essentially play Fab+Henderson when both are fit, and then the third will be based on what he thinks of the opposition we are up against.
 
Think Henderson, Thiago, Keita and Elliott all play better at RCM, which is a problem. Effectively, you only have Jones who actually prefers LCM over RCM. The thing with Jones of course is that he'd prefer to be a free-running AM like Mount or Havertz as opposed to a tactically conservative LCM like Wijnaldum.

Milner will fill in anywhere, but he's the definition of a generalist who doesn't actually excel at any position, especially at this age. Ox is pretty useless at any of these positions. He's my last option from all our midfielders.

We definitely have an LCM problem. Given that LCM in our system seems to play more defensively, and receives the ball in more crowded areas with his back to goal, our best options are Naby or Thiago because they're technically the two best players in midfield. That said, both are more effective and expressive when playing RCM.

Long term, the reason I want us to sign Gravenberch is that he's absolutely perfect for that LCM role - that's where he excels for Ajax.
 
If fit and ready, there's no reason to displace Elliott. He's been our best midfielder this season.

If we're talking about who's in the best form right now, for me it's:

Keita--Fabinho--Elliott.

However Thiago deserves an opportunity to see what he can do with a proper DM behind him. Henderson should be back up DM and competing with Elliott for the RM spot. Hendo will play more then Elliott throughout the season, but when a young lad has come in and smashed its only right he keeps his spot.

Not saying that midfield should start versus Leeds, the international break will largely dictate that.
 
Great thread rurikbird - yes definitely Fabinho the main man for midfield now. However, the loss of Gini to me is still obvious in the current midfield setup - it has weakened us somewhat, and I think it will be more obvious when we have to play the likes of City/Man United. If we had signed Bissouma - I think we would have everything we could ask for in terms of our midfield given our boss does not seem to think that highly of creative types. There will be incredible pressure on Hendo this season to be fit and play games to support Fabinho in his holding role and personally I don't think he will be fit enough to last or plays enough games.

  • I think Elliot is playing really well but he is being somewhat shackled by either something he has been told or feels the pressure from the senior players not to express or do stuff when he is in a better position than they are.
  • For that reason I believe there is definitely a place for Curtis in this team as another potential creative and ball playing midfielder with a focus on improving his in game thinking. I would like to see more of him if both Fabinho and Henderson/Milner play.
  • Thiago - I don't think he should ever be considered as a potential DM, I feel very nervous when he is on the pitch as the 2nd workhorse to Fabinho or Henderson. His role should be one of creative midfielder with his passing range. So definitely No on the double pivot role.
  • As for Naby - I have no fucking idea why we signed him and what purpose he has. It's all lost on me now, to the point I have no idea what his role is, pretty much like what most Man United fans probably think about Fred's role.
  • Ox - again there is a place for him, but again he should only play if Fabinho and Henderson are playing. He should contribute more in terms of goals and take on players more when he plays.
I think Klopp will essentially play Fab+Henderson when both are fit, and then the third will be based on what he thinks of the opposition we are up against.
Ox we all knew was a crock, and the LFC medical team should have said no, just like Fekir.
Naby looked like a baller with stats to match, there was no indication he was made of biscuits. Both will play a peripheral role due to being severely injury prone.
Elliott is still young so you don't want to burn him out. Curtis holds the ball-up well is the most Gini-esk in my view, I think he lacks pace, and physical strength to be a full Gini replacement. Him and Mini need to work on bulking up like Mo Inot like Shaw)
 
Well, we seem to be handy contracts out like candy at the moment so the current lot will be here till they're about 45.

Fabinho, as everyone else has said, is by some distance our best midfielder and one of our teams lynchpins.

Henderson will still play an important part over the next season or two but yeah, I think we'll be phasing him out (or should be) as a "first name on the teamsheet" type player.

Thiago at his best is a great asset and hopefully he'll prove that he's still got some gas left in the tank (which I kinda feared might not be the case before we signed him). The problem is we kinda need a water carrier in the team alongside him, which we don't quite have now that Gini is gone and Henderson's powers are on the wane.

We have this season to properly assess Elliot and Jones given that we neglected to sign anyone over the summer so best case scenario we get a break out season from one of them and worst case, well... we have more incentive to buy big in that area.

Keita is in last chance saloon and he needs to prove that he's a better option than the kids. Unless he wows us this season, I'd sell to open up his spot in the squad for someone better. Ox needs to leave.

In terms of what we need, I think to an extent it depends on a number of factors. I think it's clear that we're trending downwards in terms of attacking output as a team and we need to do something about. Can we find a couple players that will be able to replace what we've lost? Or do we need to rejig the system?

We currently have Elliot who is far more attack minded than anyone else we've had in midfield since Coutinho (Ox excluded because he's never fit) so it'll be interesting to see how often Klopp utilizes that kind of midfield over the course of the season.

I reckon it's liklier than not that we finish the season needing / wanting 2 midfielders.
 
Now that I think about it, there were some games last season when Shaqiri played as the LCM, which naturally meant that RCM had to be more defensive. So it is possible within our system, even if it was a rarity under Klopp. So perhaps we can try Elliott in that creative Shaqiri role, while Thiago, Keita or Hendo stay a bit deeper and more disciplined at RCM - that could solve several problems at once.
 
Post-Leeds, I think this belongs here:

==============
Thiago Alcântara’s class shines through as Liverpool coast to victory
Spain midfielder has protection from Fabinho, allowing him to be braver on the ball and leading to one assist against Leeds
Jonathan Liew at Elland Road


As the game ebbed towards its unsatisfying, soft-pedalled conclusion, with their team losing 2-0 and down to 10 men, the Leeds fans decided to make their own entertainment. “Who’s the scouser in the black?” they chanted at the referee Craig Pawson after a litany of decisions had gone against them. When Pawson finally gave them a free-kick in a dangerous position, they cheered for a full 30 seconds. Apropos of very little, Sky TV was disparaged in the most industrial language.

In a way, this was a measure of just how effectively Liverpool had done their jobs here: one of the most hostile home crowds in the country reduced to ironic referee-baiting and complaints about the fixture list. There was a quiet ruthlessness to the way Jürgen Klopp’s side got their goals at the start of each half and then simply coasted their way to a comfortable victory: one admittedly tinged with sadness after the injury to Harvey Elliott.

On the pitch, too, Leeds have lots of ways to hurt you. But very few of them seemed to work here: Patrick Bamford marked out of the game, Raphinha and Jack Harrison starved and squeezed, Kalvin Phillips too busy filling holes in defence to get anything going. Most of all, Leeds’s trademark attack – the finely tuned pinball blitzkrieg through midfield – was almost entirely absent, stifled and outmanoeuvred and ultimately thrown back in their faces.

If you wanted to be harsh on Thiago Alcântara, you could point out that Leeds are the sort of team that should suit him: a team whose endless running and rotation creates the sort of shifting spaces he loves to exploit. More generously, his first start of the season was a quite lovely thing to watch: a masterclass in vision and courage on the ball that was justly rewarded in injury time when he assisted Sadio Mané’s long overdue goal.

We should be clear about what is meant by courage. In English footballing parlance it is often used to describe physical bravery: rain-sodden sliding tackles, heroic blocks, putting your head in unwise places. Thiago’s courage, by contrast, is one of conviction: the resolve required to accept the ball when someone twice your size is jostling you for it, the determination to play a risky pass through a gap rather than a safe pass backwards.

Occasionally, and wrongly, Thiago is described as a specialist in the latter: a sideways-passer, a stat-padder. In fact, since arriving in English football last summer it has been possible to detect a certain furtive disrespect towards one of the world’s finest midfielders of the last decade: usually in the dustier corners of the internet, but sometimes also from respected former pros in the media. Dietmar Hamann has described him as a poor fit for Klopp’s system. John Barnes reckons he slows Liverpool down. Certainly his first season at Anfield, pock-marked by injuries, a disrupted pre-season and an indifferent team, was some way short of his finest.

And there are times when, through little fault of his own, Thiago can look like a lot of so-what. His job isn’t to make gaps but to find them, and when the movement in front of him is as inert as it was for much of last season, clearly his options are going to be limited. But when the movement is good and the gaps start appearing – however fleetingly – there are few players better at finding them.

Liverpool’s first goal was an obvious example. As he picked up the ball on the left, the simple pass was backwards to Virgil van Dijk. Bamford was advancing on the Dutchman in anticipation, and so when Thiago instead played a harder pass along the ground to Joël Matip, the Cameroonian had 30 yards of space to run into: space from which he would create Mohamed Salah’s goal.

It’s only by watching Thiago in close detail that you realise what he’s really up to. He’s like a little swivelling robot, playing around with angles and side-steps and glances and body positions in an attempt to find the perfect pass. “His head is always on a pivot,” his teammate Nat Phillips has said, and nowhere was this more evident than early in the second half, when he held off Stuart Dallas, sent him to Skipton with a drop of the shoulder and immediately released Salah with a crossfield pass.

There is, of course, another factor in play here. For much of last season, Fabinho was forced to play in defence as a result of Liverpool’s injury problems. Now released back into midfield, he and Thiago have struck up a pleasingly textural understanding in a shape that often more closely resembles a 4-2-4 than a 4-3-3. Fabinho bundled in Liverpool’s second goal from close range but his real value was further back: sweeping up, covering the spaces, the foil that allows Thiago to be a little braver.

The evolution of Liverpool’s midfield in the last two or three seasons has probably taken a little longer than expected: hampered by the pandemic, the injury crisis of last season, the failure of Naby Keïta into the £53m general Liverpool hoped it would be.

The injury to Elliott was a reminder that there will be plenty of setbacks along the way. But there were times here, as Thiago and Fabinho gently wove their patterns, easing the game out of Leeds’ control, when you got a glimpse of how it may all work.
 
I agree with what @Modo said in another thread - at least until Elliott comes back, it looks like Fabs-Thiago-Hendo will be our first-choice midfield. They seem to complement each other well - Hendo might not be as comfortable as Elliott in tight spaces, but Thiago can help with that and they both can afford to take more risks with the security of Fabinho behind them.

Trent’s role should also be factored in - despite what Klopp said the other day, TAA plays more and more like a wide midfielder these days. It was noticeable after Hendo came on that he immediately dropped into the RB space and once he even waved to Trent, which I interpreted as “stay forward, I got you covered.” That’s the first noticeable tactical tweak of our season so far - Salah staying wider (which means he’s always available as an outlet to receive the ball since defenders are scared to get tight to him) and Trent increasingly operating in the half-spaces like an AM. Elliott’s energy and quality on the ball gave that system a potential extra dimension and sparkle (although at times he did seem to get into Salah’s way a little bit), but it should work just as well (and possibly defensively more solid) with Hendo.

One more thing I want to say is that when Thiago is playing and playing well, potentially we have less of a need for Firmino to do his customary dropping deep and playmaking. Thiago can take care of progressing the ball without him, so our striker will be more useful staying on the defender’s shoulder to stretch the defensive line. At times yesterday Mane stayed up top with Jota wide left and overall the front 3 were interchanging much more than in the previous games - it did seem to confuse and unsettle the Leeds backline and helped us create numerous high quality chances.
 
Last edited:
The Thiago comments and stats above, especially Redknapp's (whether you like him or not) about people who don't know their arse from their elbow when it comes to midfield play (not that I'm any sort of expert so fall into that category) really put those who denigrate him, on this forum too, in their places. You don't become recognised all over the globe as being world class without being exactly that.
 
Last edited:
Klopp was asked about midfield seemingly being more attack-minded this season and he kind of confirmed it:

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom