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'Same Owner - Parallel Debacles'

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Ryan

The Prophet
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For Liverpool and Red Sox, the Same Owner and Parallel Debacles

By JERÉ LONGMAN

Published: April 14, 2012

LONDON — John Henry is the principal owner of two of the sporting world’s most visible, storied and valuable franchises — the Red Sox of Boston and the Reds of Liverpool. Yet at the moment, his baseball and soccer teams are united not in towering success but in stunning collapse.

Christopher Lee/Getty Images

John Henry, left, with Tom Werner. Henry is the principal owner of the Liverpool soccer team and the Red Sox, and Werner is the chairman of both.

Charles Krupa/Associated Press

John Henry, the principal owner of the Red Sox, in the Fenway Park scoreboard. Boston collapsed last season; Liverpool has failed to inspire in 2012.
The Red Sox finished 7-20 last September and missed the playoffs. The new season has brought a nervous start. Meanwhile, Liverpool has won only 3 of its 14 Premier League matches in 2012 and has had its reputation sullied in the clumsy handling of a case of on-field racial taunting by Luis Suárez, its star Uruguayan forward.
On Thursday, Liverpool fired its director of soccer, Damien Comolli, a Frenchman. In effect, Comolli took the fall for the profligate spending of about $175 million over the past 17 months in player acquisitions that have produced mediocre results. The signings generally appeared to contradict the “Moneyball” approach, favored by Henry, to spend judiciously on capable, lesser-known players.
“We feel there is enough talent on the pitch to win,” Tom Werner, Liverpool’s (and the Red Sox’) American chairman, told reporters, “and we’ve been dissatisfied, as most supporters have been, with the results so far.”
On Saturday at Wembley Stadium, Liverpool found some consolation with the awakening of the somnolent forward Andy Carroll and a late 2-1 victory over its city rival Everton in a semifinal of the F.A. Cup, a tournament open to all divisions of English soccer. In February, Liverpool won the Carling Cup, a lesser domestic tournament that put hardware in the club’s trophy case for the first time in six years.
A second trophy, the F.A. Cup, would mitigate the disappointment but not redeem this season for many Liverpool fans. Manchester United appears headed toward a 20th league title, while Liverpool remains stuck for two decades on 18, last having won a league crown in 1990, its present struggles a dim comparison with a shimmering past.
Drifting in eighth place in the Premier League, Liverpool will miss out on next season’s European Champions League, considered the world’s best club competition, for the third consecutive season. The absence could lead to the loss of $45 million or more in revenue and to a decreased willingness of top players to join the club.
“It would be good to win two cups, but I guess the majority of fans would probably still be disappointed,” said Peter Harmsworth, 59, a family therapist from Liverpool. “Liverpool won’t have been seen as making any progress since last year, while Manchester United has continued to do well. That’s what really gets people, when your biggest rival wins again.”
The Red Sox and Liverpool have struggled recently from the extravagant acquisitions of players who have underperformed. Most noticeably this has been the case with Boston outfielder Carl Crawford and Liverpool’s Carroll, who was bought from Newcastle in January 2011 for $55.8 million, a club record, but who has since delivered only six goals in the Premier League and 10 over all.
“You think of the optimism both fan bases seemed to have 12 to 18 months ago, versus both fan bases being pretty dejected at the moment,” said Jonathan Meltzer, 26, a second-year Yale Law School student and a fan of the Red Sox and Liverpool.
In fairness, Henry, who made his fortune as a futures trader and who did not respond to a request for an interview, remains a respected owner in both cities. His Red Sox, after all, won the World Series in 2004 and 2007 after eight decades of futility.
Still, in Boston, where the Red Sox have started slowly for the second consecutive season, there is some itchy concern in the news media that Henry may be paying too much attention to soccer and not enough to baseball.
“He’s had the appearance of being distracted, absent, focused elsewhere,” said Dan Shaughnessy, a longtime columnist at The Boston Globe.
In England, the news-media portrayal of Henry is as an attentive, even ruthless, owner who has a clear strategy for success and is impatient with failure. “Americans show who is in control,” The Times of London said in a Friday headline after Comolli was fired.
Upon buying Liverpool in October 2010 for about $480 million, Henry and the Fenway Sports Group were seen as saviors, having rescued the club from the previous American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr., who had debts of about $375 million, did not get a new stadium deal and were widely disliked by fans. (The New York Times owns part of Fenway Sports Group.)
“When Henry arrived, anyone would have been perceived to be better than Hicks and Gillett,” said Tom Cannon, a professor of strategic development at the University of Liverpool. “He was seen as an astute businessman with a plan.”
Yet Henry and Werner received mixed reviews for Liverpool’s handling of an episode last October, when Suárez directed racial taunts at Manchester United’s Patrice Evra, who is black, during a match. Suárez was suspended for eight games and later refused to shake Evra’s hand in a pregame ritual.
Meanwhile, Liverpool’s manager, Kenny Dalglish, and players wore T-shirts in support of Suárez, a gesture that drew widespread criticism, given international soccer’s stated policy of zero tolerance for racism. Suárez apologized for the handshake snub in February, an act of contrition that Henry and Werner were credited with orchestrating. Still, they were criticized for not acting sooner and more forcefully.
“The general view is that the people from Boston said, ‘Stop arguing; let’s close this down,’ ” Cannon said. “Still, it hurt the club. Liverpool historically has been seen as a progressive club that did the right thing.”
There are considerable roadblocks to returning to something like the glory days of 1972 to 1990, when Liverpool won the English league 11 times and the European title 4 times. (A fifth Champions League title came in 2005.) Anfield, Liverpool’s revered stadium, is aging, holds only 45,000 fans and is fitted with fewer corporate amenities than newer Premier League stadiums. Liverpool is also the poorest among the major soccer cities in England, Cannon said.
The prestige and financial gain of the Champions League remain elusive. And Liverpool’s standing with Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal as the big four of the Premier League has been challenged by Manchester City and Tottenham.
“The Liverpool problems are probably more serious and fundamental than that of the Red Sox,” said Stefan Szymanski, a Briton who co-wrote the book “Soccernomics” and teaches sports management at the University of Michigan.
On Thursday, Liverpool gave a vote of confidence to Dalglish, 61, a Scotsman known as King Kenny, who has faced criticism for a perceived over-reliance on British-born players, questionable tactical decisions and remarks about a supposed referees conspiracy against his team.
Still, Dalglish is widely revered. He is considered Liverpool’s greatest player, and he led the club to three league titles in a previous stint as the manager. He also accumulated enormous good will for his compassionate, stabilizing behavior after 96 Liverpool fans died in a stadium crush known as the Hillsborough disaster.
A moment of silence before Saturday’s match commemorated the 23rd anniversary of the tragedy. Then Liverpool tried to atone somewhat for this troubled season. Carroll had scored a winner in added time Tuesday against Blackburn. Against Everton, though, he missed twice, pulling his jersey over his face after driving a header wide from close range in the 47th minute.
Then, with the score tied at 1-1 in the 87th minute, facing away from goal, Carroll angled a free kick into the net with the back of his head. All the complaints about fat contracts and thin goal production fell away for the moment. A team and its coach and its fans found something to celebrate in a dour season.
“We showed a little what Liverpool are,” defender Jamie Carragher said.
 
I'm not really sure what people want of the owners . Usually it's just "give us lots of money then shut up and let the manager spend that money" . If they were seen to be interfering with the manager's job , signing's etc then the majority would be up in arms . I mean even if with the Suarez thing , if they had overruled kenny (who has as much as admitted he got lots wrong with his handling of the affair ) they'd have got dog's abuse . They're damned if they do , damned if they don't .

I mean i gather what they do with both clubs in a sense is create a management team (ayre , camolli , kenny etc for us ) and then let them get on with things . I don't see anything wrong with this especially considering how much money they have given both clubs but i guess problems arise if these management teams don't do a good enough job . That's when they step in and shake things up . I just hope they can creat a decent enough management team for us .


Anyway i hear they are back on merseyside this week. Any guesses on what they might be changing this visit , well apart from looking for a new Director of Footie !
 
In relation to the sacking of Comolli, did anyone find this comment odd?

“We feel there is enough talent on the pitch to win,” Tom Werner, Liverpool’s (and the Red Sox’) American chairman, told reporters, “and we’ve been dissatisfied, as most supporters have been, with the results so far.”

I mean, if they think there is enough talent on the pitch, then doesn't this comment suggest it's not about the players bought, but how they're being managed?
 
In relation to the sacking of Comolli, did anyone find this comment odd?

“We feel there is enough talent on the pitch to win,” Tom Werner, Liverpool’s (and the Red Sox’) American chairman, told reporters, “and we’ve been dissatisfied, as most supporters have been, with the results so far.”

I mean, if they think there is enough talent on the pitch, then doesn't this comment suggest it's not about the players bought, but how they're being managed?


yeah i was making that point also in the main thread ....it made no sense to me , they made a few quotes referring to how his sacking was to do with results but then surely that falls on kenny . I mean i am not saying sack kenny but he was the one who admitted these were the players he wanted , how comolli did a good job getting them and how he didn't have anything to do with on-field matters . So surely if you are sacking someone for results then Kenny should be the man to answer for that .
 
In relation to the sacking of Comolli, did anyone find this comment odd?

“We feel there is enough talent on the pitch to win,” Tom Werner, Liverpool’s (and the Red Sox’) American chairman, told reporters, “and we’ve been dissatisfied, as most supporters have been, with the results so far.”

I mean, if they think there is enough talent on the pitch, then doesn't this comment suggest it's not about the players bought, but how they're being managed?
I think it's more about how much we paid for the talent. Andy Carroll is a very good forward and will have a very good EPL career (hopefully with us) but was not worth more than £20m. Nobody would have minded if Downing was signed for £8m in order to strengthen the squad but £20m was ridiculous. Henderson's fee was close to the mark for a promising youngster but it looks over-priced just based on his current form.
 
well he paid those prices because kenny asked him to get those players and i'd be pretty shocked if kenny wasn't kept up to speed on the prices and what sort of budget they had . So once bought his faith it seems was in kenny's hands . kenny gets good results and nobody cares about the prices . Bad results and people turn on the players and prices and he gets the blame for something he doesn't have that much control over really . He lost his job for agreeing to buy those players with kenny and kenny not being able to get the most from them .
 
Let's be clear about something - they know full well, as we do, that there isn't enough talent on the pitch. That (and other reasons) is why Comolli lost his job. Why Kenny kept his... well, we can carry on speculating.
 
It's also worth noting aswell that these fees would have been given the go ahead by the men at the top. Now I'm not suggesting that they should know the ins and outs of transfers, that's why they employed a DOF, but anyone who's anyone could have told them we overpaid for Downing and Henderson by at least £10m-£15m.
 
My reading of things FWIW:

1. The owners are very dissatisfied, more than they've let on in public. After all Kenny was also asked for a full explanation, in writing.
2. Having spoken to Comolli the owners came to the view that he didn't have enough about him to drive the necessary improvement forward. TBH it surprises me that they ever thought otherwise. I can only suppose he sold himself particularly well, presumably based on his support for and knowledge of "Moneyball" principles.
3. The owners have decided that at this stage it would do more harm than good to let Kenny go, but he's probably on notice that CL qualification is firmly required of him as an outcome for next season.
4. If that isn't achieved Kenny will walk, not wait to be pushed.
 
yeh i pretty much agree with that JJ. personally i think they'd liked to have sacked both of them, but feared the reaction of sacking Kenny and bottled it. it's surely true that they looked at Comolli and thought he wasn't up to the task, but i find the idea that they laid more of the blame for this season at his feet than Kenny's a bit ridiculous: at the very least Dalglish was equally culpable for the transfers, and obviously totally culpable for the on-pitch failures. The owners aren't stupid, they'll have known that was the case.
 
If we made a 12 million take it or leave it offer for Downing....they would have most likely taken it.

Anyway that's the price at which we should have walked away from the negotiations.

You can go about 50% above market value for a player just so you get your target without messing about....but what we did was criminal.
 
"Said Peter Harmsworth, 59, a family therapist from Liverpool". Do these wannabe hacks just ask whomever they happen to meet?
 
What you mean...Family therapist are important people.

I bet, they meet a lot of stressed Liverpool fans....
 
haha, i noticed that as well. good old Peter Harnsworth.

i'm not sure if i agree that the main problem with the transfers was the fees - except Carroll, obviously. it seems to me Downing and Henderson were always going to cost in the region of what we paid, one being a typically hyped young English prospect and the other a player Villa didn't want to sell who'd just had the best season of his career, and who they themselves had paid £12m for just a couple of years earlier when his stock was much lower. the big problem, along with Adam, was the targeting of the players at all.
 
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