The Lions

[Rosco]

I think it's a little unfair on O'Callaghan to be honest, I like Shaw but I'm not sure he's been as good as O'Callaghan on this tour. It was a change that was needed anyway.

Byrne was poor before he was taken off last week and Kearney played well so it's no surprise he's in this time. I thought they'd go with Williams on the left wing though, with his experience just giving him the nod over Fitzgerald.


I wouldn't play Jones personalyy but other than that it's hard to argue with the decisions. Front Row spot on, Second row - fine, back row - there's a lack of realistic options, this is the best we've got at the moment, the backline is almost perfect.

If Jones doesn't sort out his kicking, both for territory and goals we can forget about this one.

 

[doctor_mac]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg895207#msg895207 date=1245963006]
I think it's a little unfair on O'Callaghan to be honest, I like Shaw but I'm not sure he's been as good as O'Callaghan on this tour. It was a change that was needed anyway.

Byrne was poor before he was taken off last week and Kearney played well so it's no surprise he's in this time. I thought they'd go with Williams on the left wing though, with his experience just giving him the nod over Fitzgerald.


I wouldn't play Jones personalyy but other than that it's hard to argue with the decisions. Front Row spot on, Second row - fine, back row - there's a lack of realistic options, this is the best we've got at the moment, the backline is almost perfect.

If Jones doesn't sort out his kicking, both for territory and goals we can forget about this one.
[/quote]

Jones' goal kicking was a surprise in the last game. He's usually incredibly accurate. He can't have 2 poor outings in a row surely. In terms of tactical kicking, on a good day ROG is superior, but it takes a good day. I think ROG would be more of a gamble personally. If Jones has an iffy first half, I hope they bring ROG in, and we'll see how he responds.

 

[Rosco]

I think ROG is the best tactical kicker out there. Jones has never matched him in that department. Jones' goalkocking is generally accurate but it's normally quite short too. I reckon it has something to do with the ridiculous way he tees the ball up.

Jones normally plays a little bit flatter than ROG which can be great when it's pulled off correctly but Jones hasn't done it that well for a while now.

ROG is a gamble in terms of defence, but then Jones is no great tackler himself. If Jones doesn't put their wingers under pressure with well placed kicks we'll find ourselves camped in our own half for large parts of the game.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg895218#msg895218 date=1245963753]
I think ROG is the best tactical kicker out there. Jones has never matched him in that department. Jones' goalkocking is generally accurate but it's normally quite short too. I reckon it has something to do with the ridiculous way he tees the ball up.

Jones normally plays a little bit flatter than ROG which can be great when it's pulled off correctly but Jones hasn't done it that well for a while now.

ROG is a gamble in terms of defence, but then Jones is no great tackler himself. If Jones doesn't put their wingers under pressure with well placed kicks we'll find ourselves camped in our own half for large parts of the game.
[/quote]

Perhaps that's what he was told to do last time out.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

ROG playing v the SA's would be a total disaster.

The only chance the Lions have is to keep the ball in hand. If we were to kick the ball away then it would either be pumped back with interest, or play straight into a major strength of the SA's.

It also goes without saying that his failings in defence would be highlighted for all to see again and again and again.

 

[Judge Jules]

Welcome back mate.

You and I have agreed about ROG as a general rule but I have to say he's looked in better nick than the Jones boy so far on tour.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg893703#msg893703 date=1245780001]

Worst player on the Lions is again that useless twat Powell.

[/quote]

You must of blinked every time that Earls tried to catch the ball.

Lets just hope that the man of steel can actually turn up this Saturday.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=32866.msg895566#msg895566 date=1246011111]
Welcome back mate.

You and I have agreed about ROG as a general rule but I have to say he's looked in better nick than the Jones boy so far on tour.
[/quote]

Cheers mate.

Firstly let me just say that Jones was shocking last weekend, and that on tour then I'd agree with you that ROG hasn't done much wrong. The problem is though ROG's game is almost totally based on kicking, and at altitude v the SA's that isn't what is required.

Their lineout is superb and they have at least 3 kickers that can find our half from deep in their own 22.

If we are to have any hope in this test then we are going to have to keep the ball in hand as much as possible IMO.

 

[Rosco]

What do you mean at altitude kicking isn't needed ? Ridiculous.

It's even more important not to mess up tactical kicks and give the SA back three more time because the ball will travel a bigger distance from their clearances.

We need to play rugby in the right areas and not waste our energy trying to break down the Boks around our own 22. The team will be struggling for breath throughout this match, it'd be a shame to waste it all in the wrong part of the pitch.

If Jones gets his kicking right we'll win tomorrow, but I'm not confiedent of that given the regularity with which he bottles it on the big stage.

 

[doctor_mac]

I can see both points of view here. If we're getting mullered in the lineout kicking for field position does us no good, as we'll just get it back with interest- and hence Jones might seem like the best choice, as he is much more likely to rely on the players keeping the ball in hand. At the same time, I think we're fucked anyway if we don't find a way to hold our own in the lineout, or at least disrupt enough for it to be scrappy ball. I would much rather we play in their half and hope for SA mistakes than the other way round.

So Ross has talked me round, ROG should have been picked.

 

[Rosco]

The trouble is the South Africans can afford to be a little more patient than we can, so I wonder if they'll change their gameplan.

Shaun Edwards did a column in the Guardian yesterday and he was saying that last weeks game was the fifth time he's faced the Boks as a coach and every time the Boks have gone hell for leather for the first 20 , built up a decent lead then sat back and played the percentages for the rest of the game.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg896018#msg896018 date=1246053772]
What do you mean at altitude kicking isn't needed ? Ridiculous.

[/quote]

Or course it's needed at the right time, just not in th way that ROG chooses to play. E.G. 90% of the ball he gets he'll opt to kick away.

 

[Rosco]

If ROG kicked 90% of possession away how did so many Irish backs make such a good impression to get on this tour ?

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Every article I've read about the game suggests that the Lions will at least be up for the fight today. I don't expect us to win, but i hope that we at least stand up for ourselves this afternoon.

Our lads were so submissive last week, it was almost embarrassing.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg896180#msg896180 date=1246100529]
If ROG kicked 90% of possession away how did so many Irish backs make such a good impression to get on this tour ?
[/quote]

Maybe i over egged it with the %, but it's true that he kicks away more ball than nearly any other FH playing the game.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=32866.msg896186#msg896186 date=1246100717]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg896180#msg896180 date=1246100529]
If ROG kicked 90% of possession away how did so many Irish backs make such a good impression to get on this tour ?
[/quote]

Maybe i over egged it with the %, but it's true that he kicks away more ball than nearly any other FH playing the game.
[/quote]

I don't think think that's true either, he's just very good at it.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg896187#msg896187 date=1246100759]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=32866.msg896186#msg896186 date=1246100717]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg896180#msg896180 date=1246100529]
If ROG kicked 90% of possession away how did so many Irish backs make such a good impression to get on this tour ?
[/quote]

Maybe i over egged it with the %, but it's true that he kicks away more ball than nearly any other FH playing the game.
[/quote]

I don't think think that's true either, he's just very good at it.
[/quote]

Theres a good reason why he can't get into the test side even though Jones is not a stand out player Rosco, ROG is simply not very good either.

He can't tackle and he's far to reliant on the boot.

 

[Rosco]

The reason he's not in it is because the welsh coaches have too much influence. Simple as that.

Everyone knows Jones should have been dropped after the shocker he had last week. ROG has been in better form than him for quite a while now. Jones has never been anything other than an ordinary outhalf. His kicking isn't international standard, never has been. He cost us the game last week and he'll do the same today.

Have you been counting how many tackles ROG missed on tour Rafa ?

It's less than the amount of kicks Jones missed last week.

 

[Rosco]

The team this weekend should actually have 11 Irish players in it, if it weren't for injuries and bad selections.

Jenkins - Flannery - Jones

DOC - POC

Ferris - Heaslip - Wallace

Phillips - ROG
- Roberts - BOD
Fitzgerald -- Bowe

--------------------Kearney

 

[Rosco]

Here's ROG relying on his boot yet again Rafa ..... *yawns*

[flash=425,344]http://www.youtube.com/v/8JZua-LhW4o&hl=en&fs=1&.swf[/flash]

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg896194#msg896194 date=1246101187]
The reason he's not in it is because the welsh coaches have too much influence. Simple as that.

Everyone knows Jones should have been dropped after the shocker he had last week. ROG has been in better form than him for quite a while now. Jones has never been anything other than an ordinary outhalf. His kicking isn't international standard, never has been. He cost us the game last week and he'll do the same today.

Have you been counting how many tackles ROG missed on tour Rafa ?

It's less than the amount of kicks Jones missed last week.
[/quote]


Hahahaah

If there was a Welsh bias then both Williams would have been definite starters and Hook and R Jones would have been included in the original squad.

The fact is that the B&I Lions don't have a quality FH to pick, the only 2 that have the talent to one day be stand out have not been in form (CIP and Hook).

I know full well that S Jones has failings, but since your GS win you seem to have turned a blind eye to all of ROG's. He's the worst tackling FH in international rugby and he does rely far too much on his kicking game. Add to this that we are playing against the most physical test side in rugby who also have the best lineout in the game, and it's obvious why he's not getting picked.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[flash=450,450]http://www.youtube.com/v/3pbljAP8FyI&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]

 

[Rosco]

Rafa - I'm guessing you've played rugby at some stage yeah ?

Why do you underestimate outhalves that control a game ? If you've played with one, you know the value of having a reliable boot, a steady pair of hands , an outhalf that allows others around him to do what they do best. It's an ability that the vast moajority of outhalves will never possess. It can't be taught. The reason why so many Irish backs are in the Lions squad is because ROG is that type of outhalf.

Hook and Cipriani can't do that and never will, because of that they'll never start regularly at the top level. Michalak too, Carlos Spencer was a another. All gamebreakers, but you never knew which side they'd break the game for. Outhalves don't have to win the game by themselves, they just need to give the opportunities to those around them and slot over the kicks when they come.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg896200#msg896200 date=1246101532]
The team this weekend should actually have 11 Irish players in it, if it weren't for injuries and bad selections.

Jenkins - Flannery - Jones

DOC - POC

Ferris - Heaslip - Wallace

Phillips - ROG
- Roberts - BOD
Fitzgerald -- Bowe

--------------------Kearney
[/quote]

And its the Welsh coaches who are biased!

It must be Edwards who picked the English Shaw over O'Call

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg896208#msg896208 date=1246102545]
Rafa - I'm guessing you've played rugby at some stage yeah ?

Why do you underestimate outhalves that control a game ? If you've played with one, you know the value of having a reliable boot, a steady pair of hands , an outhalf that allows others around him to do what they do best. It's an ability that the vast moajority of outhalves will never possess. It can't be taught. The reason why so many Irish backs are in the Lions squad is because ROG is that type of outhalf.

Hook and Cipriani can't do that and never will, because of that they'll never start regularly at the top level. Michalak too, Carlos Spencer was a another. All gamebreakers, but you never knew which side they'd break the game for. Outhalves don't have to win the game by themselves, they just need to give the opportunities to those around them and slot over the kicks when they come.
[/quote]

Yes i have played the game Rosco.

We are not talking club rugby, we are talking about the top tier of the sport. Just having a reliable boot and a steady pair of hands is not good enough (especially when you're soft as shite as well).

Let me just gets this straight then? The reason that so many Irish backs are in the squad is partly down to the genius of ROG, and the reason that so many Welsh backs are in the squad is down to the bias of Gatland and Edwards?

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Hook, Cipriani, Michalak, and Carlos Spencer were all (or will be) better than ROG.


I can't believe you are writing off Hook/Cipriani.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=32866.msg896221#msg896221 date=1246102949]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg896208#msg896208 date=1246102545]
Rafa - I'm guessing you've played rugby at some stage yeah ?

Why do you underestimate outhalves that control a game ? If you've played with one, you know the value of having a reliable boot, a steady pair of hands , an outhalf that allows others around him to do what they do best. It's an ability that the vast moajority of outhalves will never possess. It can't be taught. The reason why so many Irish backs are in the Lions squad is because ROG is that type of outhalf.

Hook and Cipriani can't do that and never will, because of that they'll never start regularly at the top level. Michalak too, Carlos Spencer was a another. All gamebreakers, but you never knew which side they'd break the game for. Outhalves don't have to win the game by themselves, they just need to give the opportunities to those around them and slot over the kicks when they come.
[/quote]

Yes i have played the game Rosco.

We are not talking club rugby, we are talking about the top tier of the sport. Just having a reliable boot and a steady pair of hands is not good enough (especially when you're soft as shite as well).

Let me just gets this straight then? The reason that so many Irish backs are in the squad is partly down to the genius of ROG, and the reason that so many Welsh backs are in the squad is down to the bias of Gatland and Edwards?


[/quote]

You're forgetting the ability to control a game. That's what will stop the flash in the pan types you like from ever being regulars at the top level. They don't have it, they may have one standuot peformance under their belt from a few years back but that's all it was , one game. When they play at a consistently high level over a period of years you can start comparing Hook and Cipriani to ROG and Jones, but they never will so it's a moot point.

I'll try to settle this - you said ROG kicks 90% of the time - I said you're being ridiculous and if that was the case our backs would never get a chance to show how good they are. It's because ROG doesn't kick that much that they've had the chance to shine. They've been picked because they're excellent players who've had the chance to shine.

The Welsh backs have been picked because they're very good too, it's just a pity that their coaches managed to make them look shit for most of last season because of their tactics.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=32866.msg896225#msg896225 date=1246103265]
Hook, Cipriani, Michalak, and Carlos Spencer were all (or will be) better than ROG.


I can't believe you are writing off Hook/Cipriani.

[/quote]

I despair Rafa I really do.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=32866.msg896213#msg896213 date=1246102637]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg896200#msg896200 date=1246101532]
The team this weekend should actually have 11 Irish players in it, if it weren't for injuries and bad selections.

Jenkins - Flannery - Jones

DOC - POC

Ferris - Heaslip - Wallace

Phillips - ROG
- Roberts - BOD
Fitzgerald -- Bowe

--------------------Kearney
[/quote]

And its the Welsh coaches who are biased!

It must be Edwards who picked the English Shaw over O'Call
[/quote]

Allow me to interrupt this Celtic family argument and blow a VERY loud raspberry at that. A pound to a penny says Botha and Matfield would have been delighted if O'Callaghan had got the nod.

 

[Rosco]

I'll have to dig up the interview where Matfield said they were the best second row partnership he's ever played against.