The Shit List

[Rosco]

I was listening to a Charles Barkley interview a while back (on the BS report podcast) - it was before the NBA playoffs and they were talking about Dirk Nowitzki and how great a player he is.

Barkley said he always roots for players like Nowitzki, because he didn't like to see players end up on the "Shit List" - which he explained was great players who never won the big one in the sport they were in. He had never won an NBA Championship - largely because of Jordan. Karl Malone was another great NBA player who never won it too. Lebron James another.

So if we widen out to any sport in the world what stars would be on the Shit List ?

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Jimmy White
Barry Sanders
Dan Marino
Steven Gerrard

 

[Judge Jules]

George Best (though the argument that that should affect his standing relative to other greats is an empty one IMO).

Greg Norman.

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Monty!

 

[ricobats]

Stirling Moss

 

[Bologna]

Beppe Signori

 

[MC Golgotha]

Best has a couple of championship medals and a European Cup medal. How does he get on the shit list? If we include any footballer who didn't win a World Cup medal then you can put Cruyff, Platini, and Eusebio on there and it starts getting a bit out of hand.

 

[Judge Jules]

That last bit is one of the reasons why I've no time for the view that not having won the World Cup should count in any discussion of individual players' merits.

No apols though for including Best (who I regard as the greatest player ever BTW) on the list. The criterion was "never won the big one", singular. In football that has to mean the World Cup IMHO.

 

[The Slugmonster]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=46065.msg1362786#msg1362786 date=1310302289]
I was listening to a Charles Barkley interview a while back (on the BS report podcast) - it was before the NBA playoffs and they were talking about Dirk Nowitzki and how great a player he is.

Barkley said he always roots for players like Nowitzki, because he didn't like to see players end up on the "Shit List" - which he explained was great players who never won the big one in the sport they were in. He had never won an NBA Championship - largely because of Jordan. Karl Malone was another great NBA player who never won it too. Lebron James another.

So if we widen out to any sport in the world what stars would be on the Shit List ?
[/quote]

Lebron is still only 26 so its still a bit premature to have him mentioned. Barkley was the wrong side of 30 when Jordan and his Bulls won their 6 rings. There'd be a few golfers as well but not Greg Norman...he won 2 British Opens guys which still makes him a double major winner regardless of his mishaps in other majors!

 

[MC Golgotha]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=46065.msg1362970#msg1362970 date=1310326250]
That last bit is one of the reasons why I've no time for the view that not having won the World Cup should count in any discussion of individual players' merits.

No apols though for including Best (who I regard as the greatest player ever BTW) on the list. The criterion was "never won the big one", singular. In football that has to mean the World Cup IMHO.
[/quote]


I don't think Barkley's particular criteria translate directly to football, certainly not in terms of 'the big one' anyway. I mean, the big one he is talking about is the national American basketball title. International football competitions cannot be directly compared as a player can only play for the countries he qualifies for. If (and I can't actually believe we're spending this much time doing this, but onwards regardless...) we were to establish a football shit list, I think winning either one of the European Cup or the World Cup should exempt a player from it.

In basketball, not winning an NBA ring can be seen a reflection on a great player to some extent as one man, particularly in certain positions, has a much larger impact on each team they one player can in football, and if necessary they can move team to accomplish their goals. Not winning the world cup is absolutely no reflection on Best's quality as a player whatsoever, as Northern Ireland are never going to get close to winning it, and he couldn't just decide to go and play for Germany. So if the criteria that place a player on the shit list are circumstances utterly beyond his control, then of what value can the list possibly be?

Any shit list that counts Cruyff and Eusabio on it, but not Burruchaga or Guido Buchwald, is clearly not much use to anyone.

 

[Judge Jules]

Of course not but, if that were the yardstick for whether or not to have an internet discussion, neither this forum nor any other would get much traffic.

Incidentally, on the transferability or otherwise of Barkley's pearls of wisdom, this one should be of pretty general application:

"My daughter's boyfriends? I figure if I kill the first one, word will get out."

 

[MC Golgotha]

Ain't that the truth, on both counts.