The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1461071#msg1461071 date=1326194226]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1461065#msg1461065 date=1326193924]
The perversion of justice is a very big deal indeed, regardless of how trivial you happen to think the consequences are.
[/quote]

Hear hear! I can't get my head round the mentality of those who seem comfortable with the concept that the club should apologise when there is nothing to apologise for. That would add insult to injury in my book.
[/quote]

I think it's a matter of wanting the whole thing over and done with. We all do, but once that becomes your no.1 priority, as it was from the beginning for people who advocate such an apology, you'll insist till the cows come home that Suarez was guilty. Otherwise you have to face up to the injustice involved and you'll know that the easy way out is not acceptable. Move on, yes, but an apology - beyond those already issued - can get to f'ck.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=47188.msg1461066#msg1461066 date=1326193998]
And who was right about Downing Sunny?
[/quote]

Ha. He scored the other night, he's aces ! Anyway, anger is never right Molby. After all, you never see me flying off the handle.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47188.msg1461028#msg1461028 date=1326192268]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1461024#msg1461024 date=1326192037]
No-one has to participate in the debate Neil. It's still a conveniently overlooked fact. Mind you, there's been so many, on both sides of the argument.
[/quote]

it rather annoying that evra is qouted as insulting suarez but only suarez is banned. it seems you can insult someone's country with impunity but not their race.
[/quote]

But this is the point, you can't, not according to the FA's own regulations anyway. Though I'm just being paranoid, obv.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1461067#msg1461067 date=1326194045]
The FA have a get out of jail free card on this one. JT will beat the court case and the FA will not be obliged to investigate themselves. The best thing that could have happened to Suarez on the day of the Utd game would have been if someone had made a complaint to the police. It wouldn't have got anywhere near as far as the Terry case.
[/quote]

I believe this too. I doubt Terry will face charges but, if he does maybe a little faith will be restored - not much though. Although it shouldn't matter as the FA is not a court of law and is there to monitor sporting behaviour, which this should still fall under.

 

[Jack D Rips]

I must point out that even though Im in the Suarez corner, Evra denied using the term "South American" and the commission accepted that.

 

[tony]

Hear hear! I can't get my head round the mentality of those who seem comfortable with the concept that the club should apologise when there is nothing to apologise for. That would add insult to injury in my book.


Quite right Portly - its the principle of this injustice that is so important. , I suspect Evra wasnt particulary bothered about after the game but Ferguson saw an opportunity to hurt LIVERPOOL which is why he marched Evra into the referees office that afternoon. If you think Im deluded have a look at Fergusons post match sky interview where he rips into Suarez (before he could have been aware of any comments ) For me it really hasnt got alot to do with race but more to do with how the fa have painted themselves into a corner and have framed the "evidence" to suit their preconceived judgement. Really can you ever imagine the approbrium and calls of hypocrisy that would have been heaped on them from fifa if they hadnt found Suarez guilty - its a total crock of shit and the man has been branded a racist something that will stick with him for a long long time.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=tony link=topic=47188.msg1461084#msg1461084 date=1326195662]
the man has been branded a racist something that will stick with him for a long long time.
[/quote]

Which is akin to saying everyone with a speeding ticket is a career criminal

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Once a speeder, always a speeder.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=47188.msg1460978#msg1460978 date=1326182443]
I'll speak for every single piece of credible research ever done anywhere on the subject.

Or, I could talk about the work I did in Uganda, and the various minority friends I have, and that my mum doesn't think I'm a racist.

Would you prefer the bullshit? I'd rather recognize I live in a fairly racist, homophobic time that thinks it's a lot more advanced than it is, and guard myself against it and try to be a better person.

And on that front, I'm not precisely sure what this hearing did to help, and I'm even less sure about the way that it was defended by the club.
[/quote]

You still do not speak for me. Nor many others, I'll wager.

 

[vantage]

Our fuck up was expecting the FA to use ALL the evidence available to them to come to a balanced & sensible conclusion. They didn't & stitched Suarez up. In hindsight, we should have played it differently, but so strong was our case I don't think we thought we needed to. Is that your reading too Sunny?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Does everyone agree on the following:

Evra changed his testimony from 10 times to 7 times (the word being used).

Suarez said he said it once (porque negro)

4 Manchester United gave different testimonies of what Evra told them, not what they heard. The Spanish used there, as per the Brown University professor, isn't used in Uruguay.

Not one player heard this on the pitch.

I'd conclude that Suarez used the term once - and hence, should be banned (as it is considered racist) for x games. The club should have handled this better, and it's a learning experience I'd say. We reacted fine with what happened in the Oldham game.

 

[Portly]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47188.msg1461091#msg1461091 date=1326196687]
You still do not speak for me. Nor many others, I'll wager.
[/quote]

Some years ago I saw a TV documentary about an anti-racism training course put on by the police. At the start of the course, the instructor asked the class to raise their hands if they were racist. Of course nobody raised their hand. Some time later, the instructor pointed out that all human beings entertain prejudices of some kind of other about other races, so the class had all been lying when they kept their hands down.

Racism is a complex subject and those who try to simplify it only exacerbate the problem. I suspect that the incident at the Oldham match and the racist comments to Saha on Twitter, would not have happened if the FA had not waded into a bit of goalmouth aggro with its big clumping boots and made a huge issue out of it.

 

[Jack D Rips]

We went with a high street solicitor against a QC, which considering there was also a QC on the commission seemed like a bad idea to me. Maybe Im wrong but we seemed to concede on procedural issues, and I thought it was strange that we accepted the statements of four of Evra's team mates who gave conflicting stories about what he said to them after the match. Why did we not bring them to the hearing to question them?

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1461098#msg1461098 date=1326197726]
Does everyone agree on the following:

Evra changed his testimony from 10 times to 7 times (the word being used).

Suarez said he said it once (porque negro)

4 Manchester United gave different testimonies of what Evra told them, not what they heard. The Spanish used there, as per the Brown University professor, isn't used in Uruguay.

Not one player heard this on the pitch.

I'd conclude that Suarez used the term once - and hence, should be banned (as it is considered racist) for x games. The club should have handled this better, and it's a learning experience I'd say. We reacted fine with what happened in the Oldham game.
[/quote]

Not with the bolded bit. Yes to everything else.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1461101#msg1461101 date=1326197875]
We went with a high street solicitor against a QC, which considering there was also a QC on the commission seemed like a bad idea to me. Maybe Im wrong but we seemed to concede on procedural issues, and I thought it was strange that we accepted the statements of four of Evra's team mates who gave conflicting stories about what he said to them after the match. Why did we not bring them to the hearing to question them?
[/quote]

Largely agree. The only rider I would add is that I'm not sure we actually knew the FA would use a QC to present their case, but I'd still have been happier if we'd instructed a barrister anyway.

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1461098#msg1461098 date=1326197726]
Does everyone agree on the following:

Evra changed his testimony from 10 times to 7 times (the word being used).

Suarez said he said it once (porque negro)

4 Manchester United gave different testimonies of what Evra told them, not what they heard. The Spanish used there, as per the Brown University professor, isn't used in Uruguay.

Not one player heard this on the pitch.

I'd conclude that Suarez used the term once - and hence, should be banned (as it is considered racist) for x games. The club should have handled this better, and it's a learning experience I'd say. We reacted fine with what happened in the Oldham game.
[/quote]

He changed from 10 times to 5 times. I think it was the commission who came up with the 7 times. He also changed his accusation from being called "black" to being called "n****r" to being called "negro".

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1461118#msg1461118 date=1326199319]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1461098#msg1461098 date=1326197726]
Does everyone agree on the following:

Evra changed his testimony from 10 times to 7 times (the word being used).

Suarez said he said it once (porque negro)

4 Manchester United gave different testimonies of what Evra told them, not what they heard. The Spanish used there, as per the Brown University professor, isn't used in Uruguay.

Not one player heard this on the pitch.

I'd conclude that Suarez used the term once - and hence, should be banned (as it is considered racist) for x games. The club should have handled this better, and it's a learning experience I'd say. We reacted fine with what happened in the Oldham game.
[/quote]

He changed from 10 times to 5 times. I think it was the commission who came up with the 7 times. He also changed his accusation from being called "black" to being called "n****r" to being called "negro".
[/quote]

Yes but remember, Evra's evidence was as a reliable as Suarez's wasn't....

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=47188.msg1460953#msg1460953 date=1326161020]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1326147125]
I'm not satisfied Suarez received a fair trial, no. It was clear as day what the FA were going to about this from day one. They've got their own narrative to weave and it was all depressingly predictable. That said, Suarez is no brother of mine nor yours. I don't know what he said, neither do the club or anyone else bar those two on the pitch. The FA have little evidence to suggest he did commit the act - not enough to convict by reasonable standards. But that doesn't mean he didn't do it. After all, Suarez has bitten people in the past, dives fairly frequently, stuck his hand out in the world-cup, crassly celebrated he missed penalty. He's a questionable/competitive character to say the least. Who's to say he wasn't trying to wind Evra up even further? We shouldn't pretend that this hypothesis is just wrong when it's equally likely to be true.
[/quote]
Exhibit a:
Your honour, he has previously jumped a red light to get to work on time and further aggravated the situation by signing the contract for the company, in spite of clearly breaching the law to get there in the first place.

Exhibit B: he has previous for skipping work with fake medical cedtificates.

Exhibit C: This is the most telling evidence your honour, he has in his teenage years once bitten his mate over a scuffle over lunch money!

Therefore he clearly murdered the CEO, and given that he has admitted to being in the office building at the time of murder, the evidence is beyond contestation.

The thing is Suarez has been a easy target for something like this. It is one thing to pull him up for the wrong he did. But to falsely allege that he is a racist based on an inconclusive report, one that suarez hasnt been given an opportunity to defend against is beyond the pale.

His only option to defend was to appeal to reduce the ban, as the FA's guilty verdict cannot be contested. Excuse me for believing what the man, his mates, his black mates, kenny dalglish, many other people who have had the opportunity to work with him.... Oncy can really fuck off with his opinion i really dont intend to debate this with him...
[/quote]

I'm not saying he's guilty either.

It's perfectly clear what I'm saying. None us really know, because there is fuck all to base anything on. If people want to cling onto very little details then fine, but there's nothing wrong with holding your hands up and saying 'I haven't a clue what happened'.

 

[Hansern]

Not going to bother with reading every page, but have the Alvaro Pereira interview been posted yet? Gave it today.

 

[rubans]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1461099#msg1461099 date=1326197741]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47188.msg1461091#msg1461091 date=1326196687]
You still do not speak for me. Nor many others, I'll wager.
[/quote]

Some years ago I saw a TV documentary about an anti-racism training course put on by the police. At the start of the course, the instructor asked the class to raise their hands if they were racist. Of course nobody raised their hand. Some time later, the instructor pointed out that all human beings entertain prejudices of some kind of other about other races, so the class had all been lying when they kept their hands down.

Racism is a complex subject and those who try to simplify it only exacerbate the problem. I suspect that the incident at the Oldham match and the racist comments to Saha on Twitter, would not have happened if the FA had not waded into a bit of goalmouth aggro with its big clumping boots and made a huge issue out of it.
[/quote]
I think it would have happened regardless, it might have not got as much media exposure though. Racism despite being complex is often simple too, you hear that kind of rubbish a lot less but you still hear it from time to time in public places so not sure the Suarez decision made that useless cnt a so called fan shout racist abuse at another player, I bet that person uses it at home and in the pub day to day. This decision will not impact how he behaves.Football can't solve social problems but can at least contribute over time.

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=47188.msg1461123#msg1461123 date=1326199503]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1461118#msg1461118 date=1326199319]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1461098#msg1461098 date=1326197726]
Does everyone agree on the following:

Evra changed his testimony from 10 times to 7 times (the word being used).

Suarez said he said it once (porque negro)

4 Manchester United gave different testimonies of what Evra told them, not what they heard. The Spanish used there, as per the Brown University professor, isn't used in Uruguay.

Not one player heard this on the pitch.

I'd conclude that Suarez used the term once - and hence, should be banned (as it is considered racist) for x games. The club should have handled this better, and it's a learning experience I'd say. We reacted fine with what happened in the Oldham game.
[/quote]

He changed from 10 times to 5 times. I think it was the commission who came up with the 7 times. He also changed his accusation from being called "black" to being called "n****r" to being called "negro".
[/quote]

Yes but remember, Evra's evidence was as a reliable as Suarez's wasn't....
[/quote]

Oh yes I also forgot his four team mates gave four different statements, each saying, conveniently, that they couldnt remember Evra's exact words. Laughably their statements were used to corroborate Evra's evidence. Even more laughably our legal representative did not ask for them to be available at the hearing for examination.

 

[doctor_mac]

[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1461125#msg1461125 date=1326199589]
Not going to bother with reading every page, but have the Alvaro Pereira interview been posted yet? Gave it today.
[/quote]

If it was the one from yesterday where he says Evra mustn't be proud to be black, yes.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1461094#msg1461094 date=1326197420]
Our fuck up was expecting the FA to use ALL the evidence available to them to come to a balanced & sensible conclusion. They didn't & stitched Suarez up. In hindsight, we should have played it differently, but so strong was our case I don't think we thought we needed to. Is that your reading too Sunny?
[/quote]

Pretty much. I think we assisted the FA too much but also we were too vehement in our protests at the accusation as well.

 

[6TimesaRed]

Ah fuck it.. what's done is done is done.... lets move on..

Suarez will probably never play for Liverpool again anyway.. Madrid are in for him.. he will most likely be gone by the end of the transfer window..

 

[Athens]

[quote author=jono@home link=topic=47188.msg1461172#msg1461172 date=1326204538]
Ah fuck it.. what's done is done is done.... lets move on..

Suarez will never play for Liverpool again anyway.. Madrid are in for him.. he will be gone by the end of the transfer window..
[/quote]
That's the spirit!

 

[acejmk]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1461098#msg1461098 date=1326197726]
Does everyone agree on the following:

Evra changed his testimony from 10 times to 7 times (the word being used).

Suarez said he said it once (porque negro)

4 Manchester United gave different testimonies of what Evra told them, not what they heard. The Spanish used there, as per the Brown University professor, isn't used in Uruguay.

Not one player heard this on the pitch.

I'd conclude that Suarez used the term once - and hence, should be banned (as it is considered racist) for x games. The club should have handled this better, and it's a learning experience I'd say. We reacted fine with what happened in the Oldham game.
[/quote]




This is all very true.

Also i still think the FA used this to help when Terry is found to be guilty they can just give him an 8 game ban to and that will be that.

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=acejmk link=topic=47188.msg1461184#msg1461184 date=1326205908]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1461098#msg1461098 date=1326197726]
Does everyone agree on the following:

Evra changed his testimony from 10 times to 7 times (the word being used).

Suarez said he said it once (porque negro)

4 Manchester United gave different testimonies of what Evra told them, not what they heard. The Spanish used there, as per the Brown University professor, isn't used in Uruguay.

Not one player heard this on the pitch.

I'd conclude that Suarez used the term once - and hence, should be banned (as it is considered racist) for x games. The club should have handled this better, and it's a learning experience I'd say. We reacted fine with what happened in the Oldham game.
[/quote]




This is all very true.

Also i still think the FA used this to help when Terry is found to be guilty they can just give him an 8 game ban to and that will be that.
[/quote]

I think you are wrong there. Suarez got 8 matches for ( as per the findings of the commission) using the word 7 times. As far as I know Terry is only accused of one case.

 

[doctor_mac]

[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1461193#msg1461193 date=1326206693]
[quote author=acejmk link=topic=47188.msg1461184#msg1461184 date=1326205908]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1461098#msg1461098 date=1326197726]
Does everyone agree on the following:

Evra changed his testimony from 10 times to 7 times (the word being used).

Suarez said he said it once (porque negro)

4 Manchester United gave different testimonies of what Evra told them, not what they heard. The Spanish used there, as per the Brown University professor, isn't used in Uruguay.

Not one player heard this on the pitch.

I'd conclude that Suarez used the term once - and hence, should be banned (as it is considered racist) for x games. The club should have handled this better, and it's a learning experience I'd say. We reacted fine with what happened in the Oldham game.
[/quote]




This is all very true.

Also i still think the FA used this to help when Terry is found to be guilty they can just give him an 8 game ban to and that will be that.
[/quote]

I think you are wrong there. Suarez got 8 matches for ( as per the findings of the commission) using the word 7 times. As far as I know Terry is only accused of one case.
[/quote]

But surely using an added derogatory adjective ups the stakes? I'm sure it does. There is also another precedent of a chap who admitted using a racial slur and got an 8 match suspension (with 4 of those suspended).

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1461197#msg1461197 date=1326206953]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1461193#msg1461193 date=1326206693]
[quote author=acejmk link=topic=47188.msg1461184#msg1461184 date=1326205908]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1461098#msg1461098 date=1326197726]
Does everyone agree on the following:

Evra changed his testimony from 10 times to 7 times (the word being used).

Suarez said he said it once (porque negro)

4 Manchester United gave different testimonies of what Evra told them, not what they heard. The Spanish used there, as per the Brown University professor, isn't used in Uruguay.

Not one player heard this on the pitch.

I'd conclude that Suarez used the term once - and hence, should be banned (as it is considered racist) for x games. The club should have handled this better, and it's a learning experience I'd say. We reacted fine with what happened in the Oldham game.
[/quote]




This is all very true.

Also i still think the FA used this to help when Terry is found to be guilty they can just give him an 8 game ban to and that will be that.
[/quote]

I think you are wrong there. Suarez got 8 matches for ( as per the findings of the commission) using the word 7 times. As far as I know Terry is only accused of one case.
[/quote]

But surely using an added derogatory adjective ups the stakes? I'm sure it does. There is also another precedent of a chap who admitted using a racial slur and got an 8 match suspension (with 4 of those suspended).
[/quote]

Dont get me wrong Doc. You should know by now which side I am on. Im just using FA logic. Anyway Terry probably has to be found guilty in the courts before the FA do anything.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1461099#msg1461099 date=1326197741]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47188.msg1461091#msg1461091 date=1326196687]
You still do not speak for me. Nor many others, I'll wager.
[/quote]

Some years ago I saw a TV documentary about an anti-racism training course put on by the police. At the start of the course, the instructor asked the class to raise their hands if they were racist. Of course nobody raised their hand. Some time later, the instructor pointed out that all human beings entertain prejudices of some kind of other about other races, so the class had all been lying when they kept their hands down.

Racism is a complex subject and those who try to simplify it only exacerbate the problem. I suspect that the incident at the Oldham match and the racist comments to Saha on Twitter, would not have happened if the FA had not waded into a bit of goalmouth aggro with its big clumping boots and made a huge issue out of it.
[/quote]

I am no saint, and I can be an asshole like anybody else [size=8pt](que the ususal suspects)... [/size] But I can honestly tell you all that I have never called anybody a racial slur. I've called people "pricks", not "_______ pricks", etc.

As we define racism, not everybody has racial prejudice. I don't care what research Farky has done. He's never spoken to me about it.