Post Match Brighton (A) 3-1- Mon 19th May 20:00

[Hansern]

The step down from our starters to our squad players is certainly something that will be addressed this summer.
Thought Konate was pretty poor as well when this was a game were he was supposed to step up and be the leader.
But given that the lads have trained about 5-6 times in 3 weeks its not that weird that they are completely off.

 

[MomoWASright]

Let's face it, we're rotating now because we've won the league and because Slot has one eye on giving his top players as much rest as possible, to go again in August.

None of our fringe players have done themselves justice this season really, because they've had minimal chances. I don't think it's a coincidence that they have all failed, when previously they had all offered something that made a bit of a difference. The biggest step up this season has been the consistency of a relatively settled XI, that familiarity and cohesiveness has helped us win the league. The downside is that everyone else has played so little football, they've stagnated or regressed. That's on Slot really, though the plus side of winning the league far out weighs the downside, even if it's (arguably) meant we've failed in all of the cups.

Our fringe players getting games now is because everyone else has done their bit, it's as much about protecting the welfare of his preferred choices as anything, it's not really about giving these players a few games to prove themselves, because you don't make decisions like that, the decision will largely have already been made and it's difficult to motivate players when the league is won and they've been sat on their hands for 8 months.

The only players who can have no complaints are Jones, Nunez and Jota who have had more game time the rest and mostly flattered to deceive. Elliott, Endo, Chiesa and Quansah have been on a hiding to nothing all season.

I’d give you two likes if I could.

 

[Modo]

The step down from our starters to our squad players is certainly something that will be addressed this summer.
Thought Konate was pretty poor as well when this was a game were he was supposed to step up and be the leader.
But given that the lads have trained about 5-6 times in 3 weeks its not that weird that they are completely off.

Exactly.
Lets be honest, the only signing we've made since Klopp's last season who would walk into our 2019-2022 team would be Macca. Gravy is second on that list.
My point is our core is getting older and we need more world class talent to replace them.
Thankfully we have Virg, Ali and Salah for two more years.

 

[mark1975]

Exactly.
Lets be honest, the only signing we've made since Klopp's last season who would walk into our 2019-2022 team would be Macca. Gravy is second on that list.
My point is our core is getting older and we need more world class talent to replace them.
Thankfully we have Virg, Ali and Salah for two more years.

We definitely need to be looking at creating a spine again. Keepers are fine, we need a centre half who is young and commanding, we need a top class midfielder and a top class centre forward. Slot needs have a bit more faith in his squad though too.

 

[mark1975]

The step down from our starters to our squad players is certainly something that will be addressed this summer.
Thought Konate was pretty poor as well when this was a game were he was supposed to step up and be the leader.
But given that the lads have trained about 5-6 times in 3 weeks its not that weird that they are completely off.

But when you look at the bench it's arguably the strongest in the league, it's not just the step down, it's utilising it more productively. You can't leave players in the cold for months at a time and then expect miracles.

 

[Fabio]

.

The only players who can have no complaints are Jones, Nunez and Jota who have had more game time the rest and mostly flattered to deceive. Elliott, Endo, Chiesa and Quansah have been on a hiding to nothing all season.

But endo has still done well when he's played. He knows his task and does it well. They're an argument that chiesa and Elliott were never able to get match fit as they never got minutes on the pitch so we can't be surprised they look shite. But even so, there's always been concerns over Elliott's size and there's obviously concerns over chiesas robustness.

I like Elliott, and if we were in a different era or a different manager then I feel like he'd have a lot to offer. But he's just not doing enough when he plays. He's done more than most with some goals, but even then the goals aren't some excellent play, it's just a tidy finish. A damn shame. He'll go on to have a more than decent PL career, but similar to others before him he'll fall just short. Id feel the same about Jones but at the very least he's able to hold on to the ball and ride a challenge better.

As for quansah, he's always concerned me. Even last year when he was doing well, he hardly exuded confidence. On our team in the way we play, you need to have supreme confidence in their only ability. Konate does, albeit sometimes misplaced

 

[peterhague]

But endo has still done well when he's played. He knows his task and does it well. They're an argument that chiesa and Elliott were never able to get match fit as they never got minutes on the pitch so we can't be surprised they look shite. But even so, there's always been concerns over Elliott's size and there's obviously concerns over chiesas robustness.

I like Elliott, and if we were in a different era or a different manager then I feel like he'd have a lot to offer. But he's just not doing enough when he plays. He's done more than most with some goals, but even then the goals aren't some excellent play, it's just a tidy finish. A damn shame. He'll go on to have a more than decent PL career, but similar to others before him he'll fall just short. Id feel the same about Jones but at the very least he's able to hold on to the ball and ride a challenge better.

As for quansah, he's always concerned me. Even last year when he was doing well, he hardly exuded confidence. On our team in the way we play, you need to have supreme confidence in their only ability. Konate does, albeit sometimes misplaced

Quansah feels like 4th choice quality rather than 3rd choice, which he probably would be if Gomez could stay fit. But I doubt someone at his age is going to stick around for that. I think he'll be sold if we get a good offer.

 

[Frogfish]

Lol no you didn't!

Yes I did. LFC clearly did since they published the squad lists and named players as 'CB'. You not accepting it (your comment literally being "have we ever had more than 4 CBs" which was easily and quickly disproven) because you don't agree with LFC's definition isn't the same thing.

 

[Hansern]

But when you look at the bench it's arguably the strongest in the league, it's not just the step down, it's utilising it more productively. You can't leave players in the cold for months at a time and then expect miracles.

Elliott, Tsimikas, Darwin, Jones, Quansah. They're all a step down. I love Endo but the difference between him and Gravy is massive.

Its difficult to utilize your bench when the team looks much worse with the profile of player that comes in.
This will change next season when Slot has added the players he needs to the team, and we'll rotate more.

 

[peterhague]

Yes I did. LFC clearly did since they published the squad lists and named players as 'CB'. You not accepting it (your comment literally being "have we ever had more than 4 CBs") because you don't agree with LFC's definition isn't the same thing.

Having 5 CBs isn't proof that you NEED 5 CBs!

You haven't demonstrated anything. You've just asserted it, and it might be true and it might not.

 

[MomoWASright]

But endo has still done well when he's played. He knows his task and does it well. They're an argument that chiesa and Elliott were never able to get match fit as they never got minutes on the pitch so we can't be surprised they look shite. But even so, there's always been concerns over Elliott's size and there's obviously concerns over chiesas robustness.

I like Elliott, and if we were in a different era or a different manager then I feel like he'd have a lot to offer. But he's just not doing enough when he plays. He's done more than most with some goals, but even then the goals aren't some excellent play, it's just a tidy finish. A damn shame. He'll go on to have a more than decent PL career, but similar to others before him he'll fall just short. Id feel the same about Jones but at the very least he's able to hold on to the ball and ride a challenge better.

As for quansah, he's always concerned me. Even last year when he was doing well, he hardly exuded confidence. On our team in the way we play, you need to have supreme confidence in their only ability. Konate does, albeit sometimes misplaced

I also like Elliott but he will never be anything other than a bit part player. Unless there is a massive shift in the way we play, and he can get more space.

I’ve just done a stats comparison on the PL website. Jones (1620 minutes) vs Elliott (355). Jones scored 3 vs Elliotts 1. Assists it’s 3 vs 2. Passes 996 (93.5% successful) vs 260 (85.8%). Dispossessed 34 vs 4. Jones does smash him on tackles won 21 vs 3. The most telling stat is we have only kept 1 clean sheet in the league when either or both are on the pitch.

I’m not sure what I’m saying. I’m probably not comparing apples to apples.

Elliott is a handy little player. Things happen when he’s on the pitch. It’s just I doubt he will ever get the minutes here for him to really reach his potential. I’d be sad to see him go, but not gutted. Likewise, I’d be happy for him to stay and contribute with what little pitch time he has.

 

[mark1975]

Elliott, Tsimikas, Darwin, Jones, Quansah. They're all a step down. I love Endo but the difference between him and Gravy is massive.

Its difficult to utilize your bench when the team looks much worse with the profile of player that comes in.
This will change next season when Slot has added the players he needs to the team, and we'll rotate more.

I'd say Endo is a better natural DM than Gravenberch. He (Grav) started the season brilliantly and then had a bit of a slump. He's back to his best again now but he's still found wanting a bit as a DM, Brighton played through us centrally and on the wings way too easily yesterday. I think Endo out of everyone can feel the most aggrieved, when he's played he's played well. But the gulf in class between him and Gravy isn't as huge as you suggest. Gravy is technically brilliant, but Endo isn't a slouch either, but I'd say Endo is a better defender. There were times this season when we really should have played the two of them and pushed Macca forward. Especially when Szobo was out of sorts.

Where Grav does have the edge is in terms of athleticism and physique.

 

[Hansern]

I'd say Endo is a better natural DM than Gravenberch. He (Grav) started the season brilliantly and then had a bit of a slump. He's back to his best again now but he's still found wanting a bit as a DM, Brighton played through us centrally and on the wings way too easily yesterday. I think Endo out of everyone can feel the most aggrieved, when he's played he's played well. But the gulf in class between him and Gravy isn't as huge as you suggest. Gravy is technically brilliant, but Endo isn't a slouch either, but I'd say Endo is a better defender. There were times this season when we really should have played the two of them and pushed Macca forward. Especially when Szobo was out of sorts.

Where Grav does have the edge is in terms of athleticism and physique.

I dont agree. I love Endo but there is a pretty huge drop off in terms of how Gravy solves that 6 for us and what Endo brings. Mostly in the attacking build up.

 

[Frogfish]

Having 5 CBs isn't proof that you NEED 5 CBs!

You haven't demonstrated anything. You've just asserted it, and it might be true and it might not.

OK there is some validity in that comment so I'll put it another way because it's near impossible to prove so let's go on probabilities.

Any top team competing to win in 4 competitions is going to need cover in the event of injuries (noting that Virgil has been injury free and had played every minute of every PL game up until yesterday), drop off in form and / or fatigue. Failure to have specialist cover will likely cost them over the course of a season.

We've had seasons when both Matip and Gomez were both injured at the same time, not sure about Virgil. However what if Virgil + one other was down, leaving us only 2 functioning CBs (as in 2018/19, when didn't we actually have 3 x CBs injured at one time)?

Example 1.
In 2018/19 we lost the title to City by 1 point, we had our smallest ever squad since 2010 (42 players) and only 4 CBs. Fabs and Hendo had to cover at times (weakening both defence and midfield). We won the CL (but really lived a charmed life - losing 3 of 6 away games in the group and only going through on GD, winning away at Bayern having been held at home and coming back from a 3-0 defeat to Barca) but went out in the 3rd rounds of both FAC and LC. Would an extra CB or two have made a difference to winning the PL and going further in the cups?

Example 2.
2021/22. We fell short by 1 point in the PL but we won the FAC and LC and went to the CL final. We had 7 x CBs listed by LFC in the squad that season. Was that a difference maker? It could easily have been the Quad.

 

[peterhague]

OK there is some validity in that comment so I'll put it another way because it's near impossible to prove so let's go on probabilities.

Any top team competing to win in 4 competitions is going to need cover in the event of injuries (noting that Virgil has been injury free and had played every minute of every PL game up until yesterday), drop off in form and / or fatigue. Failure to have specialist cover will likely cost them over the course of a season.

We've had seasons when both Matip and Gomez were both injured at the same time, not sure about Virgil. However what if Virgil + one other was down, leaving us only 2 functioning CBs (as in 2018/19, when didn't we actually have 3 x CBs injured at one time)?

Example 1.
In 2018/19 we lost the title to City by 1 point, we had our smallest ever squad since 2010 (42 players) and only 4 CBs. Fabs and Hendo had to cover at times (weakening both defence and midfield). We won the CL (but really lived a charmed life - losing 3 of 6 away games in the group and only going through on GD, winning away at Bayern having been held at home and coming back from a 3-0 defeat to Barca) but went out in the 3rd rounds of both FAC and LC. Would an extra CB or two have made a difference to winning the PL and going further in the cups?

Example 2.
2021/22. We fell short by 1 point in the PL but we won the FAC and LC and went to the CL final. We had 7 x CBs listed by LFC in the squad that season. Was that a difference maker? It could easily have been the Quad.

I think competing in 4 trophies is just fundamentally hard regardless of squad depth. Yes you need to rotate but the rotation is risky because it weakens the team (especially in positions like CB), no matter how good the replacements are. Even City in all these years have never managed 4 trophies. They only did the treble once.

I'd just look at how many CBs you can really give meaningful minutes to without hurting the team's rhythm. Barring major injuries that's probably 3 in the league & CL (ie very occasional rotation plus minor injuries) and a 4th in domestic cup games.

I suppose there's a decent case for a 5th to cover a major injury, but it's still a balancing act. The likelihood is you've already got 2 CBs being underused and getting itchy feet. You'd need someone who was happy basically never playing, maybe a veteran on a free transfer or something.

 

[Fabio]

I also like Elliott but he will never be anything other than a bit part player. Unless there is a massive shift in the way we play, and he can get more space.

I’ve just done a stats comparison on the PL website. Jones (1620 minutes) vs Elliott (355). Jones scored 3 vs Elliotts 1. Assists it’s 3 vs 2. Passes 996 (93.5% successful) vs 260 (85.8%). Dispossessed 34 vs 4. Jones does smash him on tackles won 21 vs 3. The most telling stat is we have only kept 1 clean sheet in the league when either or both are on the pitch.

I’m not sure what I’m saying. I’m probably not comparing apples to apples.

Elliott is a handy little player. Things happen when he’s on the pitch. It’s just I doubt he will ever get the minutes here for him to really reach his potential. I’d be sad to see him go, but not gutted. Likewise, I’d be happy for him to stay and contribute with what little pitch time he has.

What we need Elliott to be is like shaqiri in a way. Only plays when necessary but makes an impact.

If he goes he goes and if he stays I'll be happy. If him staying is the difference between buying a top player and a decent player however I don't know if I'll be as happy.

 

[mark1975]

What we need Elliott to be is like shaqiri in a way. Only plays when necessary but makes an impact.

If he goes he goes and if he stays I'll be happy. If him staying is the difference between buying a top player and a decent player however I don't know if I'll be as happy.

I'd rather us sell Diaz for £80m to try to fund a big signing, than sell Elliott for buttons just to buy another squaddie or whatever. I'll be gutted if he goes, but only because I think he'll go elsewhere, play regularly and do well. Selfish I guess, but he's a good lad to have around the squad.

 

[Fabio]

I'd rather us sell Diaz for £80m to try to fund a big signing, than sell Elliott for buttons just to buy another squaddie or whatever. I'll be gutted if he goes, but only because I think he'll go elsewhere, play regularly and do well. Selfish I guess, but he's a good lad to have around the squad.

Believe I'm happy for Diaz to be sold for 80m, but Elliott won't go for buttons. There's talk of 40m price tag. For what he's actually demonstrated with us that's not chump change. That's a cherki, or a Frimpong, or a kerkez.

 

[Hansern]

This sums up Jones last night for me.


View: https://x.com/lfcinder/status/1924563984906117151

 

[Fabio]

This sums up Jones last night for me.


View: https://x.com/lfcinder/status/1924563984906117151

Let's be fair it's more than last night

 

[Modo]

David Lynch breaks down the whole Elliott situation here:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AII0CmnKpSY

Key time stamps:
2 mins in shows a graph of Elliotts attacking stats.
4 mins in his defensive stats.

He then compares his defensive stats with Szobo's 5 min in and you'll notice a significant difference.

 

[KopRed]

If someone does come in with a 40m bid for Elliot, we will be crazy not to sell.

We don't need him at all. All this sentimental bullshit is pointless.

 

[Squiggles]

Have to agree, especially when the likes of Cherki is rumoured to be available at half the price. If not him, we're better just getting any midfielder Slot has faith in.

 

[KopRed]

That Delap fella is available for 30m. He seems pretty handy, he should be able to cover the 9, 10 positions and RW / LW, run alot and put himself about.

Something Elliot cannot do.

Delap’s £30million ($40m) release clause, activated by Ipswich’s relegation, has made him an appealing target after he scored 12 goals in his debut Premier League campaign.

 

[Fabio]

That Delap fella is available for 30m. He seems pretty handy, he should be able to cover the 9, 10 positions and RW / LW, run alot and put himself about.

Something Elliot cannot do.

Delap’s £30million ($40m) release clause, activated by Ipswich’s relegation, has made him an appealing target after he scored 12 goals in his debut Premier League campaign.

Problem is, does he develop if he's not getting consistent playing time?

 

[Farkmaster]

When I rabbit on about the concessions you have to make to anchor your attack around salah, I think Elliot is one of them as well, though it's not one made with much regret. There's a reason that without physical aggressive running through midfield, when we lose the ball there are spaces everywhere. Elliot isn't going to win the ball back, and he's short and weak to boot.

Szobo got to do more of what he wanted and gravy was a bit less diligent in defense and there were giant holes everywhere. Now, the idea actually would be, don't lose the fucking ball and dominate. We were never going to do that with that line up, so it was all set up to fail, but it does show what a number of those players can't do, but also that they're not awful at all.

Now that's not really how you want to play Elliot anyway, certainly not in a new look attack that don't know how each other play, but I don't see how you do play him. I totally don't see how you'd play him with frimpong.

Maybe we have a whole new look next year and Elliot could get minutes, but we also need to fund that refresh, and I'd guess Elliot is a no brainer of a sale in that context. Bring in a lb, utility cb, a 6 and a 9. Gomez, Endo, Elliot, Jota, Nunez all leave. Maybe Diaz.

Elliot could go be the Luis Garcia for a team bereft of attacking spark, and do well. He's not good enough to do more than bit parts for this team, because of who else plays, and how they play.

The big thing I want next year is for this team to hold the ball better.

 

[peekay]

Let's face it, we're rotating now because we've won the league and because Slot has one eye on giving his top players as much rest as possible, to go again in August.

None of our fringe players have done themselves justice this season really, because they've had minimal chances. I don't think it's a coincidence that they have all failed, when previously they had all offered something that made a bit of a difference. The biggest step up this season has been the consistency of a relatively settled XI, that familiarity and cohesiveness has helped us win the league. The downside is that everyone else has played so little football, they've stagnated or regressed. That's on Slot really, though the plus side of winning the league far out weighs the downside, even if it's (arguably) meant we've failed in all of the cups.

Our fringe players getting games now is because everyone else has done their bit, it's as much about protecting the welfare of his preferred choices as anything, it's not really about giving these players a few games to prove themselves, because you don't make decisions like that, the decision will largely have already been made and it's difficult to motivate players when the league is won and they've been sat on their hands for 8 months.

The only players who can have no complaints are Jones, Nunez and Jota who have had more game time the rest and mostly flattered to deceive. Elliott, Endo, Chiesa and Quansah have been on a hiding to nothing all season.

Saw this on reddit from Feyenoord fans. In Dutch League, they have 34 games. They have only one cup competition four four leagues and all games in the cup competition have one tie only. So you are looking at roughly a maximum of 38 games in the domestic league which is also less physically intense.

So from that point of view, Slot never had to rotate a lot. Maybe it is something he will organically pickup as our squad becomes stronger.