• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Crime and Punishment - should the penalty spot be moved back ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rosco

Worse than Brendan
Member
Great article, by a basketball analyst no less. This is the sort of analysis that is sorely lacking in traditional football circles and in particular the English football media.

Yesterday in Fortaleza, a penalty in the box decided another World Cup match. For the second time in less than a week, a whistle helped determine the fate of an entire nation’s footballing dreams. Last Tuesday, it was the Ivory Coast. Sunday it was Mexico. These penalty-area calls and the direct kicks they spawn not only shape the outcomes of games in the world’s biggest sporting event, they also change the way players behave on the pitch.

Just as basketball coaches love to say that the best place to score on the court is at the free throw line, soccer exhibits a parallel trait: The best place to score in the World Cup is at the penalty spot. Consider this pair of facts:
1. During the group stage of the 2014 World Cup, players attempted 1,236 shots on goal; they converted 10 percent of them. Even within 5 yards of the goal, players still fail to convert even half of their shots (per Opta).


chart1_1152.jpg


2. Since 1966, players have converted 81 percent of World Cup penalty kicks. (Also per Opta.)
In other words, the best shots on goal at the World Cup almost always follow the sound of a whistle, something that savvy players like Arjen Robben are keenly aware of.

That the expected value of any penalty shot far exceeds that of almost any other “live play” scenario is not just some wonky statistical quirk. This is why Rafael Márquez’s “trip” so easily “felled” Robben on Sunday. Although Robben was undeniably threatening the Mexico defense, even the slight opportunity to draw a whistle — and a subsequent PK — at the moment Márquez’s boot disrupted his stride was too alluring to pass up. So Robben fell. And then the whistle blew. And, fair or not, Mexico went home.

While many hot takes today will surround the practice of diving, perhaps yesterday’s events should also prompt a discussion about the underlying motivations for diving in the first place. Instead of putting the entire onus on the competitors to “do the right thing” in the heat of the biggest matches of their lives, why not examine the wild punitive imbalances that provide the root cause of the problem?

Penalty kicks are the most draconian and most influential penalties in any sport. This is compounded by a needlessly inflexible penal code, applied within an arbitrary box, that disables referees from exercising any sort of reasonable judgment. The problem isn’t that Márquez may or may not have fouled Robben in the penalty area, nor is it that Robben may or may not have dove. The problem is the game’s current system of on-field justice.

The fact that Márquez’s incidental foul is punished the exact same way as exponentially more egregious acts, like Luis Suárez’s intentional (game-saving) handball in 2010 is ludicrous. One is a misdemeanor, one is a felony, but in a world where no such distinctions exist, the sentences are identical, and the governing body errs on the side of punitive adjudication each and every time. In FIFA County, you go to the gallows for stealing a horse. You also go there for littering.

chart2_1152.jpg


Basketball, which has its own problems in this area, at least uses a tiered foul system that enables officials to exercise situational judgment and penalize accordingly. Referees can call multiple levels of fouls — regardless of court space — including personal fouls (some of which are deemed “shooting fouls”), flagrant fouls, and technical fouls. Each kind comes with its own level of punishment, and in turn, in the world of basketball, the punishment is more likely to fit the crime. It’s not rocket science.

With the possible exception of the game’s most egregious acts, it’s hard to justify any case where awarding a direct kick 12 yards from the goal is a suitable consequence. While there’s no denying that there should be a punitive aspect to penalizing overly aggressive defensive play, the current penalty spot is probably too close to the goal.

Remember in the World Cup, 81 percent of trips to the penalty spot result in goals. That’s a really high number, and the core reason these penalties in the box often provide the biggest inflection points of these matches. What if the spot were moved back? What if that number were 50 percent or 33 percent instead? How would moving the penalty spot back a few yards affect this situation? If players converted half their penalty shots, would fouls in the box go way up? What if there were two penalty spots, a farther one for incidental fouls, a closer one for flagrant fouls?

These are interesting hypothetical questions. But they don’t have to be hypothetical, and maybe it’s time FIFA examines how it calls and penalizes fouls near the goal. Last week, I wrote about how it’s time for the NBA to at least consider moving back its 3-point arc, since that shot has become easier and more frequent than ever. Perhaps it’s also time for FIFA to do something similar. That unassuming little white dot in the grass too often becomes the most important mark on the pitch; we should at least put some thought into where it is.
 
Actually think this is a very interesting idea. Red-cardable offenses from the penalty spot (perhaps instead of red card for non-violent offenses) and from edge of the box for other offenses. It would significantly reduce simulation in the box, although players dive outside the box too for free kicks.
 
I can't be arsed reading the article, but I've said for ages that goalscoring-opportunity-denying fouls would be far better punished with a penalty than a red card, which tend to ruin matches without even adequately compensating the victim team.

And also that handballs on the goal line should be treated exactly the same as a goal, again with no red card being necessary.
 
Immediately thought from the thread title this is something the Americans would do, then the first sentence of the post confirms it, lol.

If the Americans had their way they would butcher the game, draws wouldn't exist, goals bigger, anything to get the scorelines higher basically.
 
anything to get the scorelines higher basicall

Except the suggestion here would actually reduce the scoreline....so perhaps a little too general a statement.

Plus penalty shootouts from further back would be immensely more interesting and better indicator of talent of both the shooter and the goalkeeper.
 
The theory sounds nice, but I think the game needs to be simple and not unduly complicated. The fewer decisions you need the referees to make, the fewer opportunities there are for mistakes, disputes and loopholes. That is not to say we can't add or evolve some rules and punishments, but there's got to be some sanity to it.

Even if you start having a tiered system of punishments for offences in the box, players will still adapt to exploit them. For example, if you say, only a violent foul or a foul in the box while the player is in the act of shooting will result in a 12-yard penalty, then players will start to adapt and play-act even more, pretending that a shove was a hard punch, or a trip was a vicious kick. Or they'll just hit the ball hard when they feel contact even if they didn't mean to shoot initially, so they can say they were foiled in the act of shooting. All this stuff already happens frequently in the NBA - players and managers complaining about a foul not being a flagrant 1 or 2 foul, players just putting up a wild shot when they feel a bit of contact so they can argue they were fouled while shooting, to draw free throws, etc.

Better policing is probably a better solution than more complicated rules. That's not to say that discussions can't happen - they can and should - but the game has not suffered too much from the current system, so I can see why key changes have not happened over the years.
 
Theres a very simple proposition underneath it all, if you reduce the chances of scoring from a penalty you reduce the incentive to dive.

Is that not a good thing?
 
The theory sounds nice, but I think the game needs to be simple and not unduly complicated. The fewer decisions you need the referees to make, the fewer opportunities there are for mistakes, disputes and loopholes. That is not to say we can't add or evolve some rules and punishments, but there's got to be some sanity to it.

Even if you start having a tiered system of punishments for offences in the box, players will still adapt to exploit them. For example, if you say, only a violent foul or a foul in the box while the player is in the act of shooting will result in a 12-yard penalty, then players will start to adapt and play-act even more, pretending that a shove was a hard punch, or a trip was a vicious kick. Or they'll just hit the ball hard when they feel contact even if they didn't mean to shoot initially, so they can say they were foiled in the act of shooting. All this stuff already happens frequently in the NBA - players and managers complaining about a foul not being a flagrant 1 or 2 foul, players just putting up a wild shot when they feel a bit of contact so they can argue they were fouled while shooting, to draw free throws, etc.

Better policing is probably a better solution than more complicated rules. That's not to say that discussions can't happen - they can and should - but the game has not suffered too much from the current system, so I can see why key changes have not happened over the years.


We already have the exact complexity proposed - the difference between a red card offense (denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity) and a foul in the box. There is already incentive for players to fake the severity of a foul to get an opponent carded or sent off. So, that is nothing new either.

So, providing different kicks for these differences would add no complexity at all. And, while we are at, it seems strange that we can send a player off for denial of a obvious goal scoring opportunity outside the box and the result is a challenging free kick. Give that player a yellow (keep them on the field and not ruin the game) and the other team a penalty kick as appropriate compensation.

This is not more complicated and I agree with premise that the crimes and punishments would be better aligned.
 
Except the suggestion here would actually reduce the scoreline....so perhaps a little too general a statement.

Plus penalty shootouts from further back would be immensely more interesting and better indicator of talent of both the shooter and the goalkeeper.

Fair enough, didn't read the article, all i needed to see was the suggestion to move the penalty spot to know it was a terrible idea, moving a penalty spot wouldn't make it immensely more interesting to me, its just needlessly fucking with the game.

Your last point there about being a better indicator of talent has lost me, i don't see its relevance, we already know which players are talented, penalty shootouts are more about mental strength and bottle, any player can miss or score a penalty in that situation, why would anyone think any differently of Messi's talent if he missed in a shootout?, same if Maxi Rodriguez scored one.
 
Theres a very simple proposition underneath it all, if you reduce the chances of scoring from a penalty you reduce the incentive to dive.

Is that not a good thing?


Do players dive a lot more in the box than they do outside of it?
 
We already have the exact complexity proposed - the difference between a red card offense (denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity) and a foul in the box. There is already incentive for players to fake the severity of a foul to get an opponent carded or sent off. So, that is nothing new either.

So, providing different kicks for these differences would add no complexity at all. And, while we are at, it seems strange that we can send a player off for denial of a obvious goal scoring opportunity outside the box and the result is a challenging free kick. Give that player a yellow (keep them on the field and not ruin the game) and the other team a penalty kick as appropriate compensation.

This is not more complicated and I agree with premise that the crimes and punishments would be better aligned.

Looking at this post i might have got my wires crossed, my fault if so, should have bothered to read the article.

Of course there are issues within the game, there always will be but i would hate to see the game needlessly around fucked with to try make it more entertaining/interesting or whatever, its fine as it is, that's where i'm coming from.
 
Do players dive a lot more in the box than they do outside of it?

This is a bit like the 90% of shark attacks happen in shallow water stat.

That's because that's where most of the people are.

And those dives aren't usually as important as the ones for penalties
 
Theres a very simple proposition underneath it all, if you reduce the chances of scoring from a penalty you reduce the incentive to dive.

Is that not a good thing?

Unfortunately not, because the chances of scoring from a penalty depends upon physics and not upon some deluded notion that moving the ball further away will proportionally decrease the number of goals scored.

The penalty spot is where it is because the average velocity of the ball means that the keeper can't wait to see where it goes before diving. If you moved the ball further back, there will be a cut-off where the keeper can indeed just wait and then save every fucking penalty taken from that day forth.

This is what happens when silly intern statisticians think they know better than the grey-haired experts of old.
 
Theres a very simple proposition underneath it all, if you reduce the chances of scoring from a penalty you reduce the incentive to dive.

Is that not a good thing?


Not if the penalty is awarded to compensate for a team being denied a very clear goalscoring chance. That'd make things less fair, not more fair.

I think the general point is a good one, the penalty box is a pretty arbitrary area, and some penalties are much more just than others. I'm just not sure how you'd go about it differently so that genuine opportunities are compensated for but not mere promising situations. It'd have to be a bit of an odd-shaped area. Probably something like a slice of a pie chart whose radius is a few yards behind the goal.
 
How about we just get the calls right?
Any incident that is deemed to be a possible penalty is given a 30 second video review by the 4th official.
If it is adjudicated to be simulation then an automatic yellow is given. If it is not simulation then the foul stands and a penalty is awarded.
This isn't rocket science either. And the fate of nations footballing dreams will never be decided by a referee error/bribe.
 
Although, thinking about it, no area's needed for the current law on red cards for a goalscoring opportunity, so maybe the referee's discretion is enough?

Opportunity denied, penalty awarded, no matter where it happens on the pitch. Then get rid of the area. You could maybe have a secondary punishment for slightly less clear opportunites denied.
 
I thought about a 2-tiered system already years ago, as it's clear the current system is pretty arbitrary and in some way encourages diving. But the stats in the article (80% of penalties are converted, but less than 50% of shots from open play even when 5 yards from goal) suggest another solution: just move the penalty spot back to where the scoring rate is around 50%. If it's only 1 in 2 chance to score from the penalty, I think most players would choose to try to convert scoring opportunities from open play and the diving in the box will decrease dramatically. Why not try this in some lower leagues to see how that would work?
 
Theres a very simple proposition underneath it all, if you reduce the chances of scoring from a penalty you reduce the incentive to dive.

Is that not a good thing?

But does not that then induce defenders to commit fouls inside the box since the consequences are not as bad now? For example, the keeper hauls down the attacker 5 yards from goal. Penalty is taken at 18 yards. Fair?
 
I thought about a 2-tiered system already years ago, as it's clear the current system is pretty arbitrary and in some way encourages diving. But the stats in the article (80% of penalties are converted, but less than 50% of shots from open play even when 5 yards from goal) suggest another solution: just move the penalty spot back to where the scoring rate is around 50%. If it's only 1 in 2 chance to score from the penalty, I think most players would choose to try to convert scoring opportunities from open play and the diving in the box will decrease dramatically. Why not try this in some lower leagues to see how that would work?

I think that 50% stat about goals missing from 5 yards needs a better breakdown. Did that include chances off corners or free kicks, for example, which quite frequently end up in that area? Also, the World Cup sample is really, really small in the greater scheme of things.
 
The diving situation is the easiest thing to sort out, retrospective bans, it really is that simple.

I like this better, although refs should just try to ensure diving (and play acting, another scourge of the game) is punished in the game right away. The rules have always been there - you just need to enforce them seriously. I can't remember which World Cup it was, but at one of them, referees were very fervent in punishing tackles from behind, so much so that quite a number of games ended up without full teams from each side. Then they started to scale back because they'd gone from being really lax on it to being crazy strict. It does show though, that referees could be instructed to get stricter at things.

Having said all that, I'm actually pretty cynical about the whole football thing, and at times, I feel like things are intentionally left grey.
 
On the other hand defenders will simply hack everyone down within shooting range as it will be difficult to score any penalty. Most match will end zero zero. Boring.
 
Unfortunately not, because the chances of scoring from a penalty depends upon physics and not upon some deluded notion that moving the ball further away will proportionally decrease the number of goals scored.

The penalty spot is where it is because the average velocity of the ball means that the keeper can't wait to see where it goes before diving. If you moved the ball further back, there will be a cut-off where the keeper can indeed just wait and then save every fucking penalty taken from that day forth.

This is what happens when silly intern statisticians think they know better than the grey-haired experts of old.

The author is a Harvard professor btw
 
But does not that then induce defenders to commit fouls inside the box since the consequences are not as bad now? For example, the keeper hauls down the attacker 5 yards from goal. Penalty is taken at 18 yards. Fair?

Well when less than 1/2 chances from inside five yards result in a goal so long as the penalty odds is similar then yes it is fair
 
So what do you do about the team that got knocked out of the world cup because of the diver?

Good question, diving will never fully disappear because no-one can control another human beings actions but strong retrospective bans would put a massive dent into it.

In massive high stake games like a cup final or World cup knockout game some players will still take the gamble because its worth whatever punishment they will get, always been on the fence about this but i would think about letting each manager have an appeal penalty decisions only so the ref or maybe a third party(s) can have a look at a replay and decide whether he was conned/got it wrong, a bit like how they do in cricket.
 
That doesn't mean he has anymore knowledge about the game than any random fan.

He has the same knowledge. Zero.

He's just not stupid enough to think he knows the game because he's watched it.

He's open to asking simple, pertinent questions as to how some of the games problems could be easily solved
 
  • Like
Reactions: HC
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom