England's Top Tackler
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[quote author=RolandG link=topic=44935.msg1315746#msg1315746 date=1302810092]
No chance of that Le Chacal. I posted it verbatim.
I'm no Lucas fan and believe that although he is improving, he is only worth his place in the teams as a result of a lack of options. Squad player at best!
[/quote]
Yeah, I agree but I was just asking you who wrote this article... I assume it was on RAWK
By the way Im flying to SA tomorrow 8)
No chance of that Le Chacal. I posted it verbatim.
I'm no Lucas fan and believe that although he is improving, he is only worth his place in the teams as a result of a lack of options. Squad player at best!
[/quote]
Yeah, I agree but I was just asking you who wrote this article... I assume it was on RAWK
By the way Im flying to SA tomorrow 8)
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44935.msg1315819#msg1315819 date=1302821190]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44935.msg1315506#msg1315506 date=1302781410]
Lucas doesn't fare well in any of the more subtle categories either Ryan. He's average at best in all of them, but is particularly poor at reading the game
[/quote]
Nonsense.
[/quote]
You are making him look like Redondo Ryan boy. He isn't that. I know the real Lucas. We all know. You don't.
I'm happy he's improving, we are all happy but he still is an average player and no amount of games a season can change that.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44935.msg1315506#msg1315506 date=1302781410]
Lucas doesn't fare well in any of the more subtle categories either Ryan. He's average at best in all of them, but is particularly poor at reading the game
[/quote]
Nonsense.
[/quote]
You are making him look like Redondo Ryan boy. He isn't that. I know the real Lucas. We all know. You don't.
I'm happy he's improving, we are all happy but he still is an average player and no amount of games a season can change that.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=44935.msg1315607#msg1315607 date=1302793245]
[move][size=30pt]He's a fucking average squad player FFS, he ain't completely shit, but he certainly is not as good as some are convincing themselves he is, we have all got eyes.[/size][/move]
The RAWK cult is amongst us, we used to think it was funny 🙁
regards
[/quote]
Hhmmm,
I hope this is the last stand before you decide to assess him on current displays, Vlad.
He's never a kop legend but he's a player who keeps the midfield ticking cause he rarely tries to over play his hand, has all the right attributes in good touch, control, technique etc and allows the rest of the team to play to their abilities.
I've said it for some time - the mancs are still looking at a treble in mid April not because they have a team of world beaters but because they have great balance. Lucas helps give us this balance.
[move][size=30pt]He's a fucking average squad player FFS, he ain't completely shit, but he certainly is not as good as some are convincing themselves he is, we have all got eyes.[/size][/move]
The RAWK cult is amongst us, we used to think it was funny 🙁
regards
[/quote]
Hhmmm,
I hope this is the last stand before you decide to assess him on current displays, Vlad.
He's never a kop legend but he's a player who keeps the midfield ticking cause he rarely tries to over play his hand, has all the right attributes in good touch, control, technique etc and allows the rest of the team to play to their abilities.
I've said it for some time - the mancs are still looking at a treble in mid April not because they have a team of world beaters but because they have great balance. Lucas helps give us this balance.
I don't even think his touch is that good, to be honest. How many times a game do you seem him have a heavy touch, and then have to stretch to reach it before the opposition? Or just lose it altogether? And 'technique'? What's all that about? His technique when shooting is generally pretty poor, and some of his tackling is clumsy as fuck (hence the free kicks). Is it the way he passes the ball? Does his technique look textbook when he passes the ball 10 yards? Xabi Alonso had good technique. Steven Gerrard has good technique. Lucas, as with most attributes, has average technique.
And as far as balance goes, I'm afraid I don't see it. How does someone who is average at everything provide balance? I suppose you could say he bridges the gap between our good players and our shit players but that isn't really the same thing. At the end of the day, to provide balance, we need players who are great at what they do, be it passing, tackling, whatever. A midfield of Gerrard, Mascherano, and Alonso had balance. Three players who are masters in their field. A midfield of Gerrard, Merieles, and Lucas has less balance because one of those players is fundamentally limited. If by balance, we mean 'to make sure we're not too good', then I guess he does that very well.
And as far as balance goes, I'm afraid I don't see it. How does someone who is average at everything provide balance? I suppose you could say he bridges the gap between our good players and our shit players but that isn't really the same thing. At the end of the day, to provide balance, we need players who are great at what they do, be it passing, tackling, whatever. A midfield of Gerrard, Mascherano, and Alonso had balance. Three players who are masters in their field. A midfield of Gerrard, Merieles, and Lucas has less balance because one of those players is fundamentally limited. If by balance, we mean 'to make sure we're not too good', then I guess he does that very well.
Our midfield has been overrun by too many shite teams this season. If he was better at his job and we saw more of the ball he wouldn't have the stat for highest tackles in the league. Meh. I can't wait to return to the days when we had better midfield options than Lucas, Spearing and Poulsen.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44935.msg1315874#msg1315874 date=1302844742]
I'm quite surprised you think he's very quick on the ball Wiz. As Del said, there so many times in the game where he dwells on the ball wondering what to do. And his first touch needs to be more consistent.
[/quote]
absolutely.
I'm quite surprised you think he's very quick on the ball Wiz. As Del said, there so many times in the game where he dwells on the ball wondering what to do. And his first touch needs to be more consistent.
[/quote]
absolutely.
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=44935.msg1315871#msg1315871 date=1302843889]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=44935.msg1315607#msg1315607 date=1302793245]
[move][size=30pt]He's a fucking average squad player FFS, he ain't completely shit, but he certainly is not as good as some are convincing themselves he is, we have all got eyes.[/size][/move]
The RAWK cult is amongst us, we used to think it was funny 🙁
regards
[/quote]
Hhmmm,
I hope this is the last stand before you decide to assess him on current displays, Vlad.
He's never a kop legend but he's a player who keeps the midfield ticking cause he rarely tries to over play his hand, has all the right attributes in good touch, control, technique etc and allows the rest of the team to play to their abilities.
I've said it for some time - the mancs are still looking at a treble in mid April not because they have a team of world beaters but because they have great balance. Lucas helps give us this balance.
[/quote]
It would not matter what displays I judge him on Wiz, he is what he is.
Like everyone else in the team he has bad days and good days, his good days are quite good but not brilliant, and his bad days are appalling.
Which by my reckoning makes him an average player. Like others I certainly don't see in him, consistently, in fact rarely, the qualities you do.
What he does have in his favour, like Dirk, he stays fit, and plays lots of games, which is where people get a bit kidded.
regards
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=44935.msg1315607#msg1315607 date=1302793245]
[move][size=30pt]He's a fucking average squad player FFS, he ain't completely shit, but he certainly is not as good as some are convincing themselves he is, we have all got eyes.[/size][/move]
The RAWK cult is amongst us, we used to think it was funny 🙁
regards
[/quote]
Hhmmm,
I hope this is the last stand before you decide to assess him on current displays, Vlad.
He's never a kop legend but he's a player who keeps the midfield ticking cause he rarely tries to over play his hand, has all the right attributes in good touch, control, technique etc and allows the rest of the team to play to their abilities.
I've said it for some time - the mancs are still looking at a treble in mid April not because they have a team of world beaters but because they have great balance. Lucas helps give us this balance.
[/quote]
It would not matter what displays I judge him on Wiz, he is what he is.
Like everyone else in the team he has bad days and good days, his good days are quite good but not brilliant, and his bad days are appalling.
Which by my reckoning makes him an average player. Like others I certainly don't see in him, consistently, in fact rarely, the qualities you do.
What he does have in his favour, like Dirk, he stays fit, and plays lots of games, which is where people get a bit kidded.
regards
He plays in a position where we dont have a better option.
Incidentally people keep on about the fouls he gives away around the box. As one who was hoarse shouting at the TV screen, telling him not to tackle in those areas, I have noticed that in recent matches I have not had to do that.
Maybe Kenny had a word.
Incidentally people keep on about the fouls he gives away around the box. As one who was hoarse shouting at the TV screen, telling him not to tackle in those areas, I have noticed that in recent matches I have not had to do that.
Maybe Kenny had a word.
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44935.msg1315878#msg1315878 date=1302845790]
I like lucas, he is clever with a decent touch, but anyone who says he doesn't hesitate is a fool. He often gets caught out because he dwells
[/quote]
Spearing is the same both can get get caught in possession and tackled in our final third. Lucas needs to sort out his sloppy fouls outside our box, so dangerous giving set pieces away there!
I like lucas, he is clever with a decent touch, but anyone who says he doesn't hesitate is a fool. He often gets caught out because he dwells
[/quote]
Spearing is the same both can get get caught in possession and tackled in our final third. Lucas needs to sort out his sloppy fouls outside our box, so dangerous giving set pieces away there!
did he make all those tackles because he failed to read the game and position himself accordingly? how many tackles did didi fling himself into?
It does make sense. A player with Sami's or the Kaiser's sense of position usually won't have to hurry to get to where the ball is, and will rely on jockeying his opponent rather than tackling him for much of the time.
The stats show he was in the right place at the right time to dispossess an opponent by making a tackle 172 times a season. Hence, in position. If he were out of position, he wouldn't be able to make a tackle at all.
I don't understand the stats as making the distinction between sliding into an opponent, and nicking the ball away or jockeying, and that may be where we are at cross purposes.
I don't understand the stats as making the distinction between sliding into an opponent, and nicking the ball away or jockeying, and that may be where we are at cross purposes.
I imagine you're right about what the stats do and don't disclose, but I don't agree that it's as simple as "Hence, in position". Neil's point, which I maintain is a good one, is that it may not be a good sign that any player has had to make that many tackles in the first place, for the reasons set out in my previous post. One doesn't have to be a member of the extremist "Lucas is sh!te" tendency (which I suspect has precious few members now anyway) to take the view that there are a fair number of players lower than Lucas on that list whom one would pick/buy in preference to him. I don't think that's an accident.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44935.msg1355565#msg1355565 date=1309098635]
It does make sense. A player with Sami's or the Kaiser's sense of position usually won't have to hurry to get to where the ball is, and will rely on jockeying his opponent rather than tackling him for much of the time.
[/quote]
Is jockeying not a form of tackling then?
What with the dispossessing of a ball and whatnot
It does make sense. A player with Sami's or the Kaiser's sense of position usually won't have to hurry to get to where the ball is, and will rely on jockeying his opponent rather than tackling him for much of the time.
[/quote]
Is jockeying not a form of tackling then?
What with the dispossessing of a ball and whatnot
Sometimes it does end in a tackle, but at least as often it ends with the player in possession having to lay the ball off. That's going to add up to fewer tackles actually made.
My replies were never about whether Lucas is good enough. That dead horse has been flogged too many a time on this forum. Without being overly pedantic, the observation neil might as well have made should have been "Why didn't he make an interception by anticipating the pass and being in the right position?"
[quote author=i_rushie link=topic=44935.msg1355613#msg1355613 date=1309102544]
My replies were never about whether Lucas is good enough. That dead horse has been flogged too many a time on this forum. Without being overly pedantic, the observation neil might as well have made should have been "Why didn't he make an interception by anticipating the pass and being in the right position?"
[/quote]
Neil was ripped apart for that in the past
Why do goalkeepers concede? Because they're not good enough !
My replies were never about whether Lucas is good enough. That dead horse has been flogged too many a time on this forum. Without being overly pedantic, the observation neil might as well have made should have been "Why didn't he make an interception by anticipating the pass and being in the right position?"
[/quote]
Neil was ripped apart for that in the past
Why do goalkeepers concede? Because they're not good enough !
Fabio - I don't think the assumption is as limited as that, but in any case I do remember the lad making a fair number of such tackles (and a fair few of those resulting in dangerous free-kicks against us). The stats themselves suggest that he did - 111 fair tackles out of 172 means 61 unfair ones, a pretty high proportion.
Good point, but if you only counted the tackles he made in those 5 months he wouldn't be nearly as high in the table, so it cuts both ways.
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