Firmino/Striker Discussion

[FoxForceFive]

Let's have an actual constructive debate about this eh lads?

No making digs at posters, let's just have a proper fucking discussion.

I had the Firmino discussion with a few bluenoses & three reds (all season ticket holders) last night, we all said we didn't rate him at all when he arrived but he's fucking boss now.

The other reds all said the same about sturridge, that he is easily he best striker we have, but there's just no way he suits this side.

Interestingly for me, is not whether Firmino is shit or not (he's not, obviously), but whether his work rate & level of assists is enough that when sturridge inevitably leaves, do we get a striker who we can rely on to run his bollocks off AND put the ball in the back of the net more often & play him instead of Firmino?

Or, do we stick with Firmino hoping he will become that player? Whilst he'll never be a natural striker, there's very few of them in the world imo (sturridge, fowler, rush, owen), he gets in some good scoring positions & creates chances for himself a fair bit, & putting them away can be taught.

Then we have the Origi element to consider. I've never been his biggest fan either, but when he hits form he looks the fucking business. In glimpses of last season, & in that league cup game, he looks like he already is that striker who can work his bollocks off for the side yet also use pace to stretch the back line & get in proper strikers positions to finish chances.

Again, like Firmino, can we expect him to do that job now? If not, do we get someone in do it & potentially stifle his development?

 

[Mystic]

Firmino is currently on course to score 17 goals this season, he's our joint top scorer and we're joint top scorers in the league, this line that's being thrown about that he doesn't score enough goals is utterly laughable and needs to be thrown out. He's not as good a finisher as Sturridge, no, not many players are, but he scores plenty of goals, and most importantly, he makes the entire team score more goals, he's worth every penny of the £30million we paid for him.

 

[dantes]

Instead of making Sturridge run around and track back into midfield, it would be better to tell the rest of the team who don't have his class to adapt. When Firmino plays, it's fine not much needs changing or replacing. When Sturridge plays, Klopp needs to get the team to change it's approach to suit him. Then we get the best of both worlds and probably double the amount of goals we score if he can make those adaptations mid-game.

 

[mark1975]

It seems obvious now that Firmino is Klopp's main central striker/forward/false 9 or whatever other name it is. Brendan has a good point about goals, he doesn't get enough, but we play with a front three, so 10-15 from from each of them is a good return for a front line. You then have goals from Lallana, Origi, Sturridge and Milner to add to the mix.

I think Origi will be given time to be blooded into the same role that Firmino plays, but I think without the latter in the team you miss the workrate and speed of thought that you don't necessarily get with the other forwards. The sort of touch which gives you an extra yard on a player, what he lacks in genuine pace, he has in vision and anticipation and that benefits the likes of Mane greatly, because if he can get a yard on a player through brilliance from Coutinho or Firmino, then he's a massive danger to the opposition.

Gradually I think we'll see Firmino chip in with the goals more, but he'll never be prolific. The front 4 though are the stereotypical "sum of parts" set up, none of them would be enough of a consistent threat if on their own with lesser players, but the four of them together complement each other and provide the fluid, interchanging attack that Klopp clearly wants to see. If we could incorporate Sturridge into that then we'd be some force, but I don't think you get the same level of workrate and it then sees the other 2-3 attackers change their game accordingly, which then arguably sees the system falter. It worked well against Leicester though.

In the last few seasons that we have finished 2nd, we've finished with 67 (2001), 77 (2009) and 101 (2014) goals. We're a quarter of the way through the season having played 5 BIG games already and we've banged in 24.

 

[Mystic]

Gradually I think we'll see Firmino chip in with the goals more, but he'll never be prolific.

He's our top scorer, we're top scorers in the league, he's on course to get 17 goals, and he doesn't even always play as a striker, I swear some of your will only be happy if he turns into Suarez!

 

[HC]

I'm a fan

he works hard, can finish and has some sublime skill in his locker , what's not to like ?

 

[mark1975]

He's our top scorer, we're top scorers in the league, he's on course to get 17 goals, and he doesn't even always play as a striker, I swear some of your will only be happy if he turns into Suarez!

It's not a criticism Mytic, it's an observation. He's a different type of attacker. Traditionally centre forwards average 10-15 goals a season, it doesn't make him a bad player he's just a cog in a very fluid and brilliantly working system. We've played 10 and he's got 4, last season he got 10 in 31, so like I said, we're likely to get approx 10-15 each from Coutinho, Mane and Firmino (maybe more, maybe less, who knows?), which is arguably enough when you then add contributions from Lallana, Sturridge, Origi etc.

 

[Hansern]

He's got 4 goals in 9 games. Thats pretty close to whats acceptable from your main striker if you ask me.
We're tied with City so far with most goals scored with 24. I think that speaks for itself whether or not the current set up is working.

Firmino brings so much more to the attacking play and set up then what Sturridge currently does, and you could argue that Coutinho and Mane wouldnt have 4 goals each if it wasnt for this attacking set up.

Its quite obvious that the attacking 3 have different qualites that in sum makes it very balanced and unpredictable.

 

[Mors]

Sturridge is a brilliant striker, but he's never fit and doesn't fit this particular style we're playing, which isn't going to suit a lot of players.
Firmino is good, very much suits the system, and seems a decent guy. But, I don't think he's long term our main striker, can't be.
We need someone like Suarez or Tevez, someone that's a great goalscorer and can play this way. I'm not sure who that player is.
Firmino defo has to stay though if we buy that striker, as he's very good in the system and can chip in with a decent amount of goals. But Sturridge on the other hand, for me has to go if we get this other striker in.

 

[mark1975]

He's got 4 goals in 9 games. Thats pretty close to whats acceptable from your main striker if you ask me.
We're tied with City so far with most goals scored with 24. I think that speaks for itself whether or not the current set up is working.

Firmino brings so much more to the attacking play and set up then what Sturridge currently does, and you could argue that Coutinho and Mane wouldnt have 4 goals each if it wasnt for this attacking set up.

Its quite obvious that the attacking 3 have different qualites that in sum makes it very balanced and unpredictable.

I don't think even Brendan was saying that it's "not working", when people are called out on here as being over critical, simply for pointing out where we can improve, the other lot go the other way and start making bold predictions based on a small sample of stats. In 40 league appearances overall, he has 14 goals. So that's just more than a full season and bang on with my 10-15 goals a season prediction.

 

[dantes]

He's got 4 goals in 9 games. Thats pretty close to whats acceptable from your main striker if you ask me.
We're tied with City so far with most goals scored with 24. I think that speaks for itself whether or not the current set up is working.

Firmino brings so much more to the attacking play and set up then what Sturridge currently does, and you could argue that Coutinho and Mane wouldnt have 4 goals each if it wasnt for this attacking set up.

Its quite obvious that the attacking 3 have different qualites that in sum makes it very balanced and unpredictable.

It's hard to predict because defenders and footballers are stupid. They can't cope with three different players with three different styles rotating around and taking it in turns to attack them. The problem is all three are quite capable of fucking up the chances they create, and depending upon the intelligence of the other team, they can settle into the game and get used to our attack. Not consciously, but instinctively after being bent over for 20 minutes and repeatedly fucked, humans tend to find a away to counter it. At that point the sum of the parts bullshit is no longer going to help us, we need a part that they can't adapt to, which is Sturridge.

 

[dantes]

Sturridge is a brilliant striker, but he's never fit and doesn't fit this particular style we're playing, which isn't going to suit a lot of players.
Firmino is good, very much suits the system, and seems a decent guy. But, I don't think he's long term our main striker, can't be.
We need someone like Suarez or Tevez, someone that's a great goalscorer and can play this way. I'm not sure who that player is.
Firmino defo has to stay though if we buy that striker, as he's very good in the system and can chip in with a decent amount of goals. But Sturridge on the other hand, for me has to go if we get this other striker in.

No, no selling Sturridge because you think you have a new striker who will play like Suarez or Tevez would be utter madness. It would be like getting divorced because you think Michelle Rodriguez might want you once you're single.

 

[HC]

Also , firmino is certainly a forward as opposed to the striker , which klopp doesn't seem to favour .

Or as the media insist on calling him, a false 9. He comes deep and interchanges with the Attacking midfielders with great vigour , the ability that the forwards interchange and move about the pitch is quite extraordinary.

There were times last year where klopp clearly didn't have his personnel or system nailed as firmino would become isolated , come deep and subsequently there were matches were we would become trapped in our own half as there was no longer an outlet . Mane coming in has definitely helped him, he now has a runner ,a rapid one at that and coutinho too seems to understand the system better and is definitely working harder and lallana is doing his best Duracell bunny impression

I think it's almost a case that he fits the system really well but I'm not sure , if he were to leave he'd necessarily add so much value to another club

The fact that he can keep out a striker who when fit is almost certainly a 20 + league striker and genuine match winner is a testament to how well he fits the klopp system . I'd be interested to see who the next forward klopp buys is, as there's certainly a mould , as evident in the rest of the midfielders and forwards, if coutinho continues this vein of form, im sure we will find out next summer

 

[FoxForceFive]

The main frustration for me may sound odd.

We're not clinical enough. That flies in the face of how many goals we've scored, or any other stat you care to look at.

Nevertheless, look at Saturday. We allowed to Palace to get level twice, despite fucking battering them, cos we weren't clinical enough. When that happens I inevitably think "Sturridge would have slotted at least one here".

We're scoring a good percentage of our chances, very good in fact, yet imo the chances we're making our of good enough quality to be scoring more than we are.

Then when sturridge does play we don't create as many chances, & he's not in the right place when we do cos he's trying to hard to track back.

Personally I don't understand why Klopp insists on making him track back so much, he can't tackle. At all. He knows he can't so doesn't even try. Even in that league cup game last week he kept running back & yet whenever he was close enough to tackle the player with the ball he just watched & hoped for a mispass he could intercept. Better imo than giving away a free kick or getting a booking, but most seem to think he's being lazy.

 

[mark1975]

You're right Jon. It's kind of the problem and the root of our current success. We HAVE to create so many chances to put a few goals away, imagine how much a clinical goalscorer would flourish, "if" we could incorporate him into this team. That's not a slight on anyone either, before I get jumped on, I think Firmino is a brilliant player.

 

[Leo]

He's probably my favorite player at the moment.
I love his work ethic.
No matter how bad he's playing and let's be honest he's fucking hideous in some games he always gives his all and never hides.
It's rare for a Brazilian.
We have two of them with fantastic attitudes.
Almost everyone was excited when we signed him and that's always a good sign.
I'm blabbering now but Bobby is boss.

 

[mark1975]

I just hope the partnership with Coutinho isn't shortlived. I mean, I hope Coutinho doesn't do one and he gives this side time to flourish. At this rate I could see the big guns coming in for taking them as a partnership, because they have a great understanding.

 

[Squiggles]

Sturridge is a brilliant striker, but he's never fit and doesn't fit this particular style we're playing, which isn't going to suit a lot of players.
Firmino is good, very much suits the system, and seems a decent guy. But, I don't think he's long term our main striker, can't be.
We need someone like Suarez or Tevez, someone that's a great goalscorer and can play this way. I'm not sure who that player is.
Firmino defo has to stay though if we buy that striker, as he's very good in the system and can chip in with a decent amount of goals. But Sturridge on the other hand, for me has to go if we get this other striker in.

Yep. That's it for me.

I'm disappointed Sturridge hasn't adjusted to this system. It's not world's apart from when Rodgers was here. Part of me suspects Klopps never warmed to him as a player or a person. From the outside there appears some tension between the two. We are a worse side for not having a successfully integrated Daniel Sturridge fit and firing in this system, despite the success we are having. We're very good now, no doubt. But if Sturridge was at his best in this side we would be even better. To me that's a real shame.

Long term we're going to need Origi to step up or to sign someone new for the striking role and have Firmino drop back to AM.

 

[Mors]

No, no selling Sturridge because you think you have a new striker who will play like Suarez or Tevez would be utter madness. It would be like getting divorced because you think Michelle Rodriguez might want you once you're single.

I know what you're saying, but say for a minute we trust Klopp on the transfers, and the new striker is going to work out, then you'd be keeping sturridge here with 12months left on his contract and he'd be behind striker x, firmino, origi in the pecking order? Even if he didn't work out, we know it works fine with firmino. He's got to go I'm afraid. He's coming to the end of his contract.

 

[Oliver Twist]

Talking in terms of 'strikers' in our current set up would appear a little futile. Klopp clearly has a different vision in this regard (sum...parts...yadda...yadda) so highlighting a specific position/player's output when the system is so fluid is nigh on impossible to do.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

This is what I wrote after WBA game:

He may not be a better striker than Studge - but him leading the front line clearly makes us a more dangerous outfit. When he's up front, Coutinho and Mane can flank him and move to the spaces he creates continually. He's constantly putting pressure on the ball, and he's always finding himself in the right position to either create (Mane goal) or take a scoring change (he missed the chance Gini set up for him).I know you will stand by your point that Studge is our best striker - he is, everyone agrees with you (even if you quote his goal scoring stats this year in the league) ... But it's rather evident we're a better team with Firimno leading the line ...

I want to edit it to the below:

He is not a better goalscorer than Studge - but him leading the front line clearly makes us a more dangerous outfit. When he's up front, Coutinho and Mane can flank him and move to the spaces he creates continually. He's constantly putting pressure on the ball, and he's always finding himself in the right position to either create (Mane goal) or take a scoring change (he missed the chance Gini set up for him). I know you will stand by your point that Studge is our best striker - he is our best goalscorer but I don't think he's our best striker because in every other category bar goalscoring, Firmino is better ... and it's because of that we're a better team with Firimno leading the line ...


Now here's the issue ... can a team without a striker who scores 20+ goals (Firmino will be lucky to crack 20 league goals) in a season win the league?
If the rest of the 5 players in the midfield and attacking positions contribute goals as they are, I think it's definitely possible. Unlikely, but possible.
If it cannot be done though, then we have a problem (& another thread!)

 

[Comical Aly]

I’ve been curious about how successfully Klopp uses Firmino for a while given he seems to play up front in big games and elsewhere in others. So, for an exercise in a spreadsheet class, I did a little research on how he’s done since big Jurgen arrived. It was quite interesting to see how the team has evolved (I took Sky’s website as right on formation). We played 4-4-1-1 a few times about midway through last season with Firmino as the 1 in behind and Origi got a lot of playing time last season.

In terms of Firmino – we played 63 games from Spurs away last season to WBA last weekend. He played some role in 52 of them – generally he hasn’t come on as sub and mostly when he hasn't played he hasn’t even been on the bench so he started most of those 52 (but was subbed a lot). He started as a lone striker or middle of a front three 33 times.

It’s worth also noting that the average level of difficulty of the games goes up in the games he starts and he wasn’t in the squad for some of the games against minnows (* - I’ve put a list of the games that he’s played in and those not below, the games against “harder” teams were in the Milk Cup so against weaker lineups).

Since Klopp arrived we’ve won 49% of games, drawn 30% and lost 21%. In games that Firmino has played in at all we won 54%, drawn 27% and lost 19%. Games where he’s played up front we’ve won 55%, drawn 27% and lost 18%. Those suggest that we do better with him as a striker and when you look at the difficulty of the games he’s played the various roles in, it does reinforce that.

Some other tidbits

• we’ve scored 2.02 goals per game and conceded 1.21 in total under Klopp. In games where Firmino’s played, we scored 1.85 and conceded 1.06. However, when he’s been the striker we’ve scored 2.02 and conceded 1.28 – I was a bit surprised that we’ve conceded more with him buzzing about up top but the opponents have been higher quality in general.
  
• a lot of other players have scored whilst he’s been in the solo role up front – Coutinho, Ibe, Allen, Henderson, Milner, Lallana, Sturridge, Can, Clyne, Toure, Benteke, Moreno, Origi, Sakho, Mane, & both the own goals we were credited with
  
• This season we score 2.69 goals per 90 mins he plays up front compared to 2.55 overall and 2.51 when he plays (either up front or elsewhere) – that was before Palace so would go up
  
• There are a few other improvements he’s made when we’ve played the big teams (Arse, both Mancs, Chelsea and Spurs) and I included Everton in that analysis too

So I reckon Klopp probably knows what he's doing with him. I was drooling in the other thread about having Suarez play for Klopp in that role - if Firmino could make an improvement in his finishing, we'd probably have the closest to Suarez as we're going to get***.


* - Games he’s been up front in:

Rubin Kazan (H), Chelsea (A), Man City (A), Watford (A), Stoke (A), Arsenal (H), Manure (H), Norwich (A), Stoke (H), Leicester (A), Sunderland (H), Villa (A), Augsburg (A), Augsburg (H), Man City (A), Man City (H), Palace (A), Manure (H), Manure (A), Stoke (H), Bournemouth (A), Everton (H), Newcastle (H), Villareal (A), Villareal (H), Chelsea (H), Arsenal (A), Burnley (A), Spurs (A), Leicester (H), Hull (H), Swansea (A), WBA (H)

- Games he’s played not up front:

Soton (H), Bournemouth (H), Rubin Kazan (A), Palace (H), Bordeaux (H), Swansea (H), Newcastle (A), Sion (A), WBA (H), Leicester (H), Sunderland (A), West Ham (A), Dortmund (A), Dortmund (H), Watford (H), Sevilla (A), Burton (A), Derby (A), Manure (H)

- Games he’s not been involved in:

Spurs (A), Soton (A), Exeter (A), Exeter (H), West Ham (H), West Ham (A), Soton (H), Spurs (H), Swansea (A), WBA (A), Chelsea (A)

** - subject to my spreadsheet errors

*** - I'm not saying he's as good as Suarez

 

[Mystic]

The main frustration for me may sound odd.

We're not clinical enough. That flies in the face of how many goals we've scored, or any other stat you care to look at.

Nevertheless, look at Saturday. We allowed to Palace to get level twice, despite fucking battering them, cos we weren't clinical enough. When that happens I inevitably think "Sturridge would have slotted at least one here".

We're scoring a good percentage of our chances, very good in fact, yet imo the chances we're making our of good enough quality to be scoring more than we are.

Then when sturridge does play we don't create as many chances, & he's not in the right place when we do cos he's trying to hard to track back.

Personally I don't understand why Klopp insists on making him track back so much, he can't tackle. At all. He knows he can't so doesn't even try. Even in that league cup game last week he kept running back & yet whenever he was close enough to tackle the player with the ball he just watched & hoped for a mispass he could intercept. Better imo than giving away a free kick or getting a booking, but most seem to think he's being lazy.

I agree, I was moaning about as much in the game thread on Saturday. However I don't think it's a personnel issue, I think it's a team mentality issue, when we're on top in these games we look like we start taking our domination for granted, content in the knowledge we're winning by two anyway. It's very frustrating to watch us spurn so many chances, we really need to have more of a killer instinct, we can start toying with the opposition when it's 4 or 5, until that point, make every opportunity count.

 

[doctor_mac]

Some people worry we can't win the league unless we have a CF who scores 20 plus goals. So far, that looks unlikely in the case of Firmino but because his fluid approach to the role helps place Mane, Coutinho and Lallana in scoring positions (and makes us a fucking nightmare to defend against because you can't just try and mark the CF out of the game) that's just a worry that doesn't apply to the way we are set up to play. We are free-scoring without a single focal point for our attack. This lack of a 20+ front man is a worry if you play a system that is designed to put your CF in goalscoring positions as your number one attacking ploy. It just isn't the way we are playing, and that suits me just fine.

 

[Oliver Twist]

Now here's the issue ... can a team without a striker who scores 20+ goals (Firmino will be lucky to crack 20 league goals) in a season win the league?

Surely it's about total output rather than the output of one particular player?

Otherwise I agreed with the rest of your post.

 

[Hansern]

I don't think even Brendan was saying that it's "not working", when people are called out on here as being over critical, simply for pointing out where we can improve, the other lot go the other way and start making bold predictions based on a small sample of stats. In 40 league appearances overall, he has 14 goals. So that's just more than a full season and bang on with my 10-15 goals a season prediction.

14 goals in his first 40 league appearances is a better return then what Suarez had actually.
Not gonna compare those two obviously cause Suarez is on another planet but there is every possibility Firmino could score 16-20 goals this season.

Brendan wants Firmino replaced with Sturridge because he is a more natural goalscorer which is obviously true, but I think the whole attacking line wouldnt work that well if you remove Firmino from it. I dont think Brendan really recognizes how important Firmino is to our attacking set up.

 

[JohnnyRocket]

* Googles Michelle Rodriguez *

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Some people worry we can't win the league unless we have a CF who scores 20 plus goals. So far, that looks unlikely in the case of Firmino but because his fluid approach to the role helps place Mane, Coutinho and Lallana in scoring positions (and makes us a fucking nightmare to defend against because you can't just try and mark the CF out of the game) that's just a worry that doesn't apply to the way we are set up to play. We are free-scoring without a single focal point for our attack. This lack of a 20+ front man is a worry if you play a system that is designed to put your CF in goalscoring positions as your number one attacking ploy. It just isn't the way we are playing, and that suits me just fine.

Yah, that's what I'm seeing ... which is why I think we can win the league with him up front.

Surely it's about total output rather than the output of one particular player?

Otherwise I agreed with the rest of your post.

Yup, which is why I'm happy with him up front ...

 

[FoxForceFive]

I agree, I was moaning about as much in the game thread on Saturday. However I don't think it's a personnel issue, I think it's a team mentality issue, when we're on top in these games we look like we start taking our domination for granted, content in the knowledge we're winning by two anyway. It's very frustrating to watch us spurn so many chances, we really need to have more of a killer instinct, we can start toying with the opposition when it's 4 or 5, until that point, make every opportunity count.

I liked this cos I know you (amongst a couple of others) have been banging on that bizarrely we look less than clinical despite goals scored saying otherwise.

However I don't think it's mentality, it's simple.

We have Firmino, Coutinho, Mane, Lallana & Henderson who are theoretically most likely to score.

Not one of those players are who I'd bet my house on scoring in even a one on one situation. They're all hit & miss (literally) & all have striking technique issues.

That's why we're not clinical.

Against Palace we had both centre backs score, & Can pop up with a goal too.

Of our front line only Firmino scored, despite all our possession & chances created.

 

[Oliver Twist]

Of our front line only Firmino scored, despite all our possession & chances created.

The million dollar question is how much possession - and how many chances - do you forego by starting a more traditional and static number 9.