Graeme Souness - Liverpool manager

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I was overjoyed by his appointment. After the devastation of Kenny's departure he was the one man I felt could come straight in and fix where we had started to creak. I loved him as a player (he's still and always will be in my all time 11) and he'd impressed greatly in turning Rangers back around into the dominant side north of the border.

Some people think Kenny left us in a total mess. He didn't. We were still the major force in the English game albeit the gap had closed and would soon open up again with us on the wrong side of it. The team needed some refreshing with some players past their best and some of Kenny's later signings not at the required level.

So what went wrong and how much of it was the fault of the new manager? The obvious answer is he tried to change too much too soon...on and off the field. Our medical 'department' was a joke...who can forget the agony of seeing Phil Boersma running onto the pitch to attend to an injured player? The man had the healing powers of Harold Shipman. Quite what he would have made of Sturridge is too horrible to contemplate.

And then of course there was his infamous interview with that paper. There was no coming back from that for Souness the manager.

The first game I ever took my future wife to was the 6-2 final day win over Spurs when he didn't turn up to Anfield. The excitement and relief in the ground that day was palpable.

And then when he was gone we had the relief of Roy taking over. Back to the promise of the bootroom...

So Souness is a strange one for me. An all time favourite player, the excitement and then despair at his appointment as manager, the couldn't care less about him era as he traipsed around Blackburn, Newcastle, Southampton et al and now I enjoy watching and reading him...his love for the club seemingly restored.

Thoughts on Souness?

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

I think it's the dodgy 'tache.


Sent from my iPhone 8 Plus using Tapatalk

 

[gkmacca]

I was overjoyed by his appointment. After the devastation of Kenny's departure he was the one man I felt could come straight in and fix where we had started to creak. I loved him as a player (he's still and always will be in my all time 11) and he'd impressed greatly in turning Rangers back around into the dominant side north of the border.

Some people think Kenny left us in a total mess. He didn't. We were still the major force in the English game albeit the gap had closed and would soon open up again with us on the wrong side of it. The team needed some refreshing with some players past their best and some of Kenny's later signings not at the required level.

So what went wrong and how much of it was the fault of the new manager? The obvious answer is he tried to change too much too soon...on and off the field. Our medical 'department' was a joke...who can forget the agony of seeing Phil Boersma running onto the pitch to attend to an injured player? The man had the healing powers of Harold Shipman. Quite what he would have made of Sturridge is too horrible to contemplate.

And then of course there was his infamous interview with that paper. There was no coming back from that for Souness the manager.

The first game I ever took my future wife to was the 6-2 final day win over Spurs when he didn't turn up to Anfield. The excitement and relief in the ground that day was palpable.

And then when he was gone we had the relief of Roy taking over. Back to the promise of the bootroom...

So Souness is a strange one for me. An all time favourite player, the excitement and then despair at his appointment as manager, the couldn't care less about him era as he traipsed around Blackburn, Newcastle, Southampton et al and now I enjoy watching and reading him...his love for the club seemingly restored.

Thoughts on Souness?

I think that's pretty much spot on. When Kenny left, Souness was the obvious choice. I guess Toshack was another option, and with the huge benefit of hindsight he probably would have been a wiser manager, but Souey had the swagger of dominating with Rangers, and he still had the aura that came from having been such a brilliant player. And then it started to go wrong. Badly wrong. And as you say, he's now a fine pundit - thoughtful, incisive and authoritative.

The sad thing that remains is that every time he seems to edge even an inch or so to some kind of semi-redemption, he says something that makes you wonder if he really has any great affiliation with the club he claims to still love. Take this from as recently as last year:

'Fergie was having a difficult time and the banners were up in the Stretford End. I was manager of Rangers but I would have gone there. Damn right. I was flying. I am not sure how well I would have been received and I am sure United supporters will look upon that as a lucky escape now! But I would have taken it."

So I doubt he'll be re-embraced during his lifetime, but nothing can take away the fact that he was probably the most imperious midfielder and captain we've ever had, and we probably wouldn't have won half as much without him. Gerrard was a glorious force of nature but in terms of intelligence, discipline and tactical nous, no one owned the midfield like Souness did.

 

[Oncy]

Fingering.

 

[leftpeg]

'Fergie was having a difficult time and the banners were up in the Stretford End. I was manager of Rangers but I would have gone there. Damn right. I was flying. I am not sure how well I would have been received and I am sure United supporters will look upon that as a lucky escape now! But I would have taken it."

I'd missed that quote. I'd have hated it of course but one of the things I liked best about Souness the player (and why I thought he'd make a fine Liverpool manager), was his arrogance; his unshakable belief that he was the best and he didn't give a toss what anyone else thought about him. He wouldn't have cared about the reception from Utd fans and evidently wouldn't have been bothered about upsetting us. So logically, if his arrogance was a quality for me, I should have no problem with this. But as it was Utd, there is no logic and I'd have hated it / him!

 

[Molbystwin]

You are right IMO to have him in the all time top 11, a truly fantastic player, a series of bad decisions as a manager and the misfortune of SKY Tv kicking in as it happened didn't help him. The first 4 or 5 years of SKY Tv were basically an advert for United every time you turned on the TV.

As for the "interview" with that piece of shit newspaper, that was a total and terrible error but in truth, he was probably very fucked up and in a hospital so good decisions might be looking elsewhere. He was a highly arrogant man in many ways but he was a pure winner and his dedication to the club can't be questioned.

In his own account of his time as manager, he talked about the players getting over the hill age wise and refusing to get out of the way, I'm not so sure about that, but the club was a fucking mess maybe he lacked the charm needed to overcome that. Alongside turning down Schmeichel and Cantona when they were offered to us let's be honest he was a disaster but one thing I do respect was once he decided not to play Fowler as a kid because he didn't want him to sully him with the shit we were offering at the time. Great player, unlucky manager and lacked charm but in my house very much a Liverpool legend.

 

[gkmacca]

One Boersma anecdote made me chuckle. He recalled the time Souness, just before his heart surgery, took him to one side to tell him some 'really important news'. Boersma said he thought he was going to reveal he was having plastic surgery on his hooter because he was always so incredibly vain. Indeed, as Archie Gemmill famously said, if Souey was a chocolate drop he would have eaten himself.

 

[hmmmmm1]

His transfers were pretty poor, in and out the club.

 

[Hansern]

Agreed, thats how I remember him.
Horrendous transfers that made little sense and only pushed us furter from the top.
The point about him changing to much to soon is a good one.

Selling Beardsley and several of the other "older" players instead of integrating some new signings over a few seasons.

2,3 mill for Stewart. One of the worst transfers in the history of the club. Dicks, Wright, Piechnik, Ruddock, Thomas, Saunders.
Loads of money spent at that time and it only made us worse.

I'm sadly to young to have seen how brilliant he was for us as a player, but as a manager he was poor.

 

[Mors]

I like Souness, but I'm sure I can vaguely remember him having to start getting rid of Kenny's mates who were knocking on, and didn't he bring through the players like Fowler, Redknapp, Mcmanaman etc? Or am I making that up?

 

[Raz]

Fingering.

LOL

 

[Judge Jules]

I think that's pretty much spot on. When Kenny left, Souness was the obvious choice. I guess Toshack was another option, and with the huge benefit of hindsight he probably would have been a wiser manager, but Souey had the swagger of dominating with Rangers, and he still had the aura that came from having been such a brilliant player. And then it started to go wrong. Badly wrong. And as you say, he's now a fine pundit - thoughtful, incisive and authoritative.

The sad thing that remains is that every time he seems to edge even an inch or so to some kind of semi-redemption, he says something that makes you wonder if he really has any great affiliation with the club he claims to still love. Take this from as recently as last year:

'Fergie was having a difficult time and the banners were up in the Stretford End. I was manager of Rangers but I would have gone there. Damn right. I was flying. I am not sure how well I would have been received and I am sure United supporters will look upon that as a lucky escape now! But I would have taken it."

So I doubt he'll be re-embraced during his lifetime, but nothing can take away the fact that he was probably the most imperious midfielder and captain we've ever had, and we probably wouldn't have won half as much without him. Gerrard was a glorious force of nature but in terms of intelligence, discipline and tactical nous, no one owned the midfield like Souness did.

The only quibble I'd have with this excellent post is that Souness was not just probably but, IMO of course, definitely the most commanding CM and captain this club has ever seen. I remember it being suggested on here years ago that Gerrard would have come out on top if they'd played against each other in their prime. Not a hope - extraordinary player though Gerrard was, Souness would have chewed him up and spat him out. They'd be side by side in central midfield in my idea of the All-Time Eleven but there's no doubt who'd wear the armband, and it wouldn't be Stevie.

The thread's about Souness as a manager but I'm mainly going to draw a veil over that. When he was appointed I had an uneasy feeling it might not work, and sure enough it didn't. What I do think Souness deserves credit for is walking away when he did. Had it not been for that hopeless div Moores, who persuaded Souness not to go a year earlier when he originally decided to (prompting at least one fellow board member to resign in protest), everyone could have cut their losses twelve months before they ultimately did so.

 

[leftpeg]

I like Souness, but I'm sure I can vaguely remember him having to start getting rid of Kenny's mates who were knocking on, and didn't he bring through the players like Fowler, Redknapp, Mcmanaman etc? Or am I making that up?

Yes he did and as has been mentioned, he did a good job in timing Fowler's introduction to the first team scene.

 

[Judge Jules]

He gets a lot of credit in Fowler's autobiog for the part he played in Fowler's early career.

 

[gkmacca]

The slightly ironic aspect of his terrible mistake in giving that interview to the S*n was that the writer who did it was Mike Ellis. Mike Ellis was Souey's regular ghostwriter when he did articles as a player, and was probably the hack he knew best and trusted most on Merseyside. And when Hillsborough happened and that rag did its headline, Ellis went to the club in a tearful state to apologise and say he was resigning, but Peter Robinson actually persuaded him not to, telling him the club knew HE wasn't to blame, and arguing that it would be better for the club if they still had a trusted writer like him at the paper. So he stayed, and years later arranged the Souey interview. Then the picture happened when Ellis went on holiday, I believe. I guess in his eyes, he was still doing his job, and in Souey's eyes, he was dealing with someone he trusted. Why neither of them realised how it would be received remains a mystery to me. I don't think it can be excused, but/and it was sadly avoidable.

 

[leftpeg]

The only quibble I'd have with this excellent post is that Souness was not just probably but, IMO of course, definitely the most commanding CM and captain this club has ever seen. I remember it being suggested on here years ago that Gerrard would have come out on top if they'd played against each other in their prime. Not a hope - extraordinary player though Gerrard was, Souness would have chewed him up and spat him out. They'd be side by side in central midfield in my idea of the All-Time Eleven but there's no doubt who'd wear the armband, and it wouldn't be Stevie.

The thread's about Souness as a manager but I'm mainly going to draw a veil over that. When he was appointed I had an uneasy feeling it might not work, and sure enough it didn't. What I do think Souness deserves credit for is walking away when he did. Had it not been for that hopeless div Moores, who persuaded Souness not to go a year earlier when he originally decided to (prompting at least one fellow board member to resign in protest), everyone could have cut their losses twelve months before they ultimately did so.

Good post. The comparison with Gerrard is a good one and worthy almost of a thread of its own. Gerrard was the better all round player but Souness was incredibly good too. For people who didn't get the chance to see him in his pomp he really was a terrific footballer. And he was genuinely hard as nails. Not Vinnie Jones-style dirty-hard (although he could be dirty) either. He was menacingly hard. And if anyone of the other 10 got whacked, it would be Souness who would make it his job to deliver retribution. He was also a better team man and captain than Gerrard. So if you asked me who was the better player I'd say Gerrard. But who would I want most in my team? That would be Souness. The biggest compliment I can pay either is to say they compare well to one another. If we had both, we'd conquer the bloody world.

 

[gkmacca]

They were both special. Gerrard was sui generis and Souness was, er, Souey generis!

Souness would certainly have commanded the teams of Gerrard's era, and probably brought more out of the lesser players through advice and/or intimidation, although he couldn't have run all over the place carrying the team like Gerrard did.

But then Gerrard would probably have been, or looked, diminished in the great Liverpool sides, because he would have been obliged to hold his position much, much, more and be part of a process rather than continually being the process. You didn't need a Gerrard, in the way that we've seen Gerrard, in the great Liverpool teams, because they were too many other talents on whose toes he'd tread.

I think it's telling that Gerrard never really won his battles with Keane or Viera (there were maybe a couple of draws, but no clear wins). Souness at his peak, one way or another, would have come out on top.

 

[LarryHagman]

Good thread, enjoyed all the posts in here.
Tend to agree that while Gerrard was the better attacking threat, as a presence in the centre of the park I've not seen the equal of Souness. He'd probably get sent off about 4 times a game the way footy is now but that's by-the-by.
The word "imperious" always pops in my head when thinking about his play and I'm glad to see Macca used it in here!

 

[jimmy]

Great thread.

I agree with the statement that Souness was our best CM general and our best captain (well, at least during the 43 years I've been following this club). Gerrard was a fantastic player, and would have been a perfect partner to Souness. But if I had to choose between the two, I'd take Souness.

As our manager he failed miserably, Contrary to what was written in one of the posts above, I think that the squad that King Kenny left behind him was not good enough - the top players were aging and the new faces he had brought in his last 1.5 years in charge were not good enough (e,g, Hysen, Speedie, Carter, Rosenthal etc.). So Souness had a major task of rebuilding the squad. He brought in some big names e.g. Clough, Wright, Saunderss, Walters, Thomas etc, but apparenty they were not good enough.

His failure saddened me. I loved him as a player and as a man. I had the chance to meet him a few times, when LFC visited Israel, and he always very kind to the fans, giving us autographs, chatting with us and having his picture taken with us.
My best memory of Souness is from 1993 when I visited England, and could not get a ticket for the trip to Ewood Park (the stadium was under reconstruction at the time, and away ticket allocation was very small). I approached the manager, and he gave me a complementary ticket.
I will always have a warm spot in my heart for Greame Souness.

 

[Judge Jules]

The playing staff certainly did need changing. Souness' first mistake was that he tried to do it all at once and bombed out players like Houghton who could still have done a job while we were repairing more urgent gaps in the squad. I've always wondered whether, if he'd gone at it in a more measured way, he might have avoided some of the worst mistakes he made in the market. However, that wouldn't have been in his nature.

 

[Whaddapie]

The initial post is being very kind to the squad that Kenny left behind him... It was well past it's sell by date, with lots of replacing needed. We hadn't become Forest, but nor were we the force we'd been a few seasons earlier. Now, Souey did a terrible job attempting that, but he did have his hands very full from day one on the job.

 

[leftpeg]

The initial post is being very kind to the squad that Kenny left behind him... It was well past it's sell by date, with lots of replacing needed. We hadn't become Forest, but nor were we the force we'd been a few seasons earlier. Now, Souey did a terrible job attempting that, but he did have his hands very full from day one on the job.

We were league champions and top of the table when Kenny departed.

 

[gkmacca]

The initial post is being very kind to the squad that Kenny left behind him... It was well past it's sell by date, with lots of replacing needed. We hadn't become Forest, but nor were we the force we'd been a few seasons earlier. Now, Souey did a terrible job attempting that, but he did have his hands very full from day one on the job.

Our last title win was a bit like the mancs' last win - a lot of huff and puff, amid the under-performing of our rivals. But with better recruitment, still basically just two in per year, there was no reason why we couldn't have pushed on. The likes of Barnes, Beardsley, Houghton, Whelan and Rush all had a few more years to give, with the encouragement of some fresh talent around them. Souey behaved like the joke Irish character who responds to a request for travel directions by saying, Well, I wouldn't start from here... Souey came in with a template in mind and booted out those who didn't fit it, either in terms of age or attitude. If he'd accepted what he inherited and worked with it and added to it, the evolution would have worked. The advantage Ginsoak always had was he'd seen this. He'd seen US. There were two or three occasions over the years when the mancs could easily have gone the way we did, but, probably in a cold sweat, he realised it just in time and changed things around. But look at the mancs in the last few years - souless, incoherent, attitude problems, no real sense of direction...but they've kept winning stuff. The slide we went on wasn't just down to Souness. That buffoon Davey Moores headed the list of guilty men. But there was nothing inevitable about the decline. That's the tragedy.

 

[Spionkop69]

We were league champions and top of the table when Kenny departed.

Yeah we were but the wheels were starting to weaken on the wagon. The strain on Kenny post Hillsborough was tangible. The 4-4 in the cup v Everton was so un-Liverpool like from the one we all knew and loved. A 5-4 v Leeds wasn't long after either.

I think Souness recognised that change was needed on the pitch. But we were behind on the off the pitch stuff too. The world was changing and we weren't adapting. Souness was trying to do the right thing but in my opinion he wanted overnight change which wasn't realistic. That coupled with ageing stars past their prime, poor business in the transfer market, and of course his dalliance with that newspaper meant and his health issue at the time, meant he was doomed.

Souey had an affection for us as a club but not in the same way as a Dalglish or a Rush. He had a swagger and a confident air which often moved into arrogance. I like him as a pundit, he's insightful, he clearly still has a thing for us, but that doesn't stop him pulling any punches on his analysis of us.

I loved Souness the player. I didn't like Souness the manager. I've come to terms with is compartmentalising so that I can still recognise that at his imperious best, he was unbeatable. I know it's all opinion, but he's still the first midfielder on my all time XI.