LFC SOLD to NESV.

[Rosco]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=crump link=topic=41783.msg1180621#msg1180621 date=1285192745]
Liverpool - Amortisation

When Liverpool signs a player we generally know how much has been paid in transfer fees, the figures from www.soccerbase.com are a good source.

The club has to pay the transfer fee to the selling club. In the club accounts it then has to report how much it views each player's worth has declined each year. So for example Aqualini for a reputed £20m on a five year contract costs the club £4m per year. This is what is reported as 'amortisation' in the club accounts. At the end of the contract the player can just leave on a 'free' so he is viewed as potentially no worth to the business after that.
[/quote]

That is depreciation, which is exactly what I've been telling you for the last fucking hour.

We know the timescale of the payments for the transfer, and they aren't 4m a year. You've been telling me that amortisation is how much we're paying every year, I've been arguing that's it's the decrease in book value over time.


So you're fucking agreeing with after all this time.


What we actually pay out in the year is contained in Captial expenditure, intangible assets being the money for player registrations :

 

[Woland]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

Chill dude. This is how we account. We don't put the 20m in the first year. We put 4m a year in for 5 years. We split it up.

 

[Rosco]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=crump link=topic=41783.msg1180643#msg1180643 date=1285193165]
Chill dude. This is how we account. We don't put the 20m in the first year. We put 4m a year in for 5 years. We split it up.
[/quote]

Your fucking winding me up now.

 

[Rosco]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=crump link=topic=41783.msg1180643#msg1180643 date=1285193165]
Chill dude. This is how we account. We don't put the 20m in the first year. We put 4m a year in for 5 years. We split it up.
[/quote]

You're grossly oversimplifying things and making an arse of it

 

[Woland]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

It's not about cash movements, its about accounting. We account for contracts over their term.

In through the nose, out through the mouth.

 

[Rosco]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

You've gone from this:
[quote author=crump link=topic=41783.msg1180383#msg1180383 date=1285189087]
Amortisation as a term is being used here to show how we account for player contracts year on year. Player A is bought for 10m and is paid 2 million a year for 5 years, total cost 20m quid. Each year for the next 5 years we place 4m a year in the costs for him, until he's sold in which case we realise the profit.

There's nothing ambiguous about that, it's how LFC accounts.
[/quote]

To this:

[quote author=crump link=topic=41783.msg1180621#msg1180621 date=1285192745]
Liverpool - Amortisation

When Liverpool signs a player we generally know how much has been paid in transfer fees, the figures from www.soccerbase.com are a good source.

The club has to pay the transfer fee to the selling club. In the club accounts it then has to report how much it views each player's worth has declined each year. So for example Aqualini for a reputed £20m on a five year contract costs the club £4m per year. This is what is reported as 'amortisation' in the club accounts. At the end of the contract the player can just leave on a 'free' so he is viewed as potentially no worth to the business after that.
[/quote]

You realise "account for" means absolutely fuck all.

We depreciate a players value on a yearly basis, we pay transfer payments in instalments and the cost of that is recorded annualy as capital expenditure. They are two seperate things which you're conflating.

 

[Woland]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

So what you're actually saying is, that of the 50 odd million loss reported, 40 odd is interest and 40 odd is just a subjective thing based on the fact that all of our players are going to leave on Bosmans.

See, that's not it.

 

[Rosco]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=crump link=topic=41783.msg1180673#msg1180673 date=1285193836]
So what you're actually saying is, that of the 50 odd million loss reported, 40 odd is interest and 40 odd is just a subjective thing based on the fact that all of our players are going to leave on Bosmans.

See, that's not it.
[/quote]

I thought you knew something about accountancy.

 

[Woland]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

That's what you're saying. That the 40m is just being written off. It isn't.

It's spreading the payment using tax law. We may have actually spent the money in one go, the cash left our account and hit theirs, but we account in our annual returns by spreading the cost over the value of the contract. So 'account for' does mean something.

 

[Sunny]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

I think I understand what's being said.

Club buy player for say £20m. Payment of said player is amortised over length of contract.
Player also becomes an asset though the value of whom depreciates over length of contract also ?

Or shall I shut up ?

 

[Rosco]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=crump link=topic=41783.msg1180694#msg1180694 date=1285194561]
That's what you're saying. That the 40m is just being written off. It isn't.

It's spreading the payment using tax law. We may have actually spent the money in one go, the cash left our account and hit theirs, but we account in our annual returns by spreading the cost over the value of the contract. So 'account for' does mean something.
[/quote]

It's got nothing to do with payments Crump. Nothing at all.

 

[Woland]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=41783.msg1180696#msg1180696 date=1285194584]
I think I understand what's being said.

Club buy player for say £20m. Payment of said player is amortised over length of contract.
Player also becomes an asset though the value of whom depreciates over length of contract also ?

Or shall I shut up ?
[/quote]

Well look at Barca's accounts. Their depreciation is distinct which makes it clearer.

 

[Woland]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41783.msg1180699#msg1180699 date=1285194662]
[quote author=crump link=topic=41783.msg1180694#msg1180694 date=1285194561]
That's what you're saying. That the 40m is just being written off. It isn't.

It's spreading the payment using tax law. We may have actually spent the money in one go, the cash left our account and hit theirs, but we account in our annual returns by spreading the cost over the value of the contract. So 'account for' does mean something.
[/quote]

It's got nothing to do with payments Crump. Nothing at all.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's what I said. Now back to the point?

 

[Rosco]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=41783.msg1180696#msg1180696 date=1285194584]
I think I understand what's being said.

Club buy player for say £20m. Payment of said player is amortised over length of contract.
Player also becomes an asset though the value of whom depreciates over length of contract also ?

Or shall I shut up ?
[/quote]

Here's a good example - Aquilani.

Payments we make for Aquilani:

2009 - 5m
2010 - 10m
2011 -5m

Total - 20m in payments over three years. (capital expenditure)

So we're adding a 20m pound intangible asset (quite apt for Aquilani) to our balance sheet. He signed a five year deal so according to our accounting policies we're going to decrease his value over the course of his contract @4m per year. His value stepping down to 16m, 12m, 8m, 4m and ultimately to zero if his contract runs out. This is what is accounted for under the amortisation heading.

Two seperate things at play here, the first being the money actually being paid out and the second being us keeping track of the book value of the player/squad.

 

[Rosco]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=crump link=topic=41783.msg1180701#msg1180701 date=1285194724]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41783.msg1180699#msg1180699 date=1285194662]
[quote author=crump link=topic=41783.msg1180694#msg1180694 date=1285194561]
That's what you're saying. That the 40m is just being written off. It isn't.

It's spreading the payment using tax law. We may have actually spent the money in one go, the cash left our account and hit theirs, but we account in our annual returns by spreading the cost over the value of the contract. So 'account for' does mean something.
[/quote]

It's got nothing to do with payments Crump. Nothing at all.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's what I said. Now back to the point?
[/quote]

Crump I'm presuming you're on a wind up.

 

[Woland]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

Yeah, so you've got a capitalised intangible fixed asset which is decreasing in value in line with the amortisation. This is an accounting practice. Not an actual cash movement. Which is why the operating profit before this is significant.

 

[ILD]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

Will one of ye call it a night or agree to disagree for now. Haha.

 

[Woland]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

Yeah ok I submit. We pay for it once in cash and then we write off off again over the term so we lose twice. Aquilani cost us 20m in year one, plus we lose 4 a million a year on him, plus we pay his wages, plus he sits on Juve's bench. Noes!

 

[peterhague]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=ILD link=topic=41783.msg1180725#msg1180725 date=1285195826]

Will one of ye call it a night or agree to disagree for now. Haha.
[/quote]


the thing is, i'm an accountant and even i can't understnd what they're arguing about.

Rosco's right in that amort. is just depreciation for intangibles, and crump's right in that it's just a method of splitting a capital outlay over the periods of use, ie a non-cash item.

i don't know how they're disagreeing from such a solid base of agreement!

 

[Insignificance]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

One account which is easy to get right:
Bonuses paid out for top three/last four in any competition: same as last seson.0

 

[Delinquent]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

Fascinating.

 

[Insignificance]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

One scenario.

How many LFC fans all over the world would be happy to chip in lets say 200 pounds each year to own the club?

If we talk 1 mill fans all over the world the annual owners fee would be 200 mill pounds. if we only talk 500.000 we still talk 100 mill pounds each year.

I believe there is forces that are able to buy the club from RBS the 6th of october for 250 mill pounds, and sell back at least half the club back to the fanbase. The money from the "owners" would be flowing in at a rate of 200 mill pound per year. We are talking heavy money here for people to own half the club. The RBS should not be worrie dthat they will sit on a football club they do not want the 6th of October.

 

[darkstarexodus]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=41783.msg1180772#msg1180772 date=1285205387]
One scenario.

How many LFC fans all over the world would be happy to chip in lets say 200 pounds each year to own the club?

If we talk 1 mill fans all over the world the annual owners fee would be 200 mill pounds. if we only talk 500.000 we still talk 100 mill pounds each year.
[/quote]

And then what? Commit every person to ponying up another 200 quid for the stadium? And then let's buy a superstar winger, so everyone pitch 50 quid? Therein lies the problem.

 

[Ossi]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

On a side note: What´s stopping G/H of firing, for example, Purslow and replace him with Hicks wife (if he has one)?

 

[peterhague]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=Ossi link=topic=41783.msg1180925#msg1180925 date=1285232451]
On a side note: What´s stopping G/H of firing, for example, Purslow and replace him with Hicks wife (if he has one)?
[/quote]


i think things like that are all supposed to be laid down in the terms of the last refinancing, which AFAIK took lots of powers away from H&G and was only really given at all to give time to sell the club. i think it's safe to say they're in no position to fire purslow or the other 2 from the board, whatever the exact means by which that stuation's been achieved are.

 

[Insignificance]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=41783.msg1180811#msg1180811 date=1285222904]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=41783.msg1180772#msg1180772 date=1285205387]
One scenario.

How many LFC fans all over the world would be happy to chip in lets say 200 pounds each year to own the club?

If we talk 1 mill fans all over the world the annual owners fee would be 200 mill pounds. if we only talk 500.000 we still talk 100 mill pounds each year.
[/quote]

And then what? Commit every person to ponying up another 200 quid for the stadium? And then let's buy a superstar winger, so everyone pitch 50 quid? Therein lies the problem.
[/quote]

It is not like the club aint generating money at all is it? The uilding o a new stadium and the financing of new signings should for me come from the daily running of the club. But my strong believe is that a yearly fee for fans ownership is a better long term propostion than chipping in 5000 £ in a one time fee and then owning a small part of the club.

An additional income for the club of lets say 100 million pounds in "owners fees" on top of a return on the daily running of the club would put ourselves in a very healthy state financially.

 

[Insignificance]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=41783.msg1180951#msg1180951 date=1285235228]
[quote author=Ossi link=topic=41783.msg1180925#msg1180925 date=1285232451]
On a side note: What´s stopping G/H of firing, for example, Purslow and replace him with Hicks wife (if he has one)?
[/quote]


i think things like that are all supposed to be laid down in the terms of the last refinancing, which AFAIK took lots of powers away from H&G and was only really given at all to give time to sell the club. i think it's safe to say they're in no position to fire purslow or the other 2 from the board, whatever the exact means by which that stuation's been achieved are.
[/quote]

They really must have agreed on a lot of terms during the last refinancing that cuffs both their hands now. And thank fucking Gd for that!!

 

[HC]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

Wasn 't there some conference north side or something that got in the media last year for doing exactly that with fans becoming shareholders and voting in the manager and the squad changes etc?

 

[Insignificance]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=41783.msg1180958#msg1180958 date=1285235794]
Wasn 't there some conference north side or something that got in the media last year for doing exactly that with fans becoming shareholders and voting in the manager and the squad changes etc?
[/quote]

I still think the manager are to be hired and fired by the clubs sporting director. The chairman and board should be voted in by the owners (fans) but the sports matters should be handled by the clubs personell.

 

[Squiggles]

Re: Merged Topics: Club Refinance Thread

[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=41783.msg1180958#msg1180958 date=1285235794]
Wasn 't there some conference north side or something that got in the media last year for doing exactly that with fans becoming shareholders and voting in the manager and the squad changes etc?
[/quote]

Yeah, Ebbsfleet United. It's all gone tits up.