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Narrowminded.

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Farkmaster

Part of the Furniture
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Could have also called this the kneejerk thread.

I've been livid with how we've played the last couple games. Most of the criticism I see seems to center around a lack of application, or perhaps running the shine off some of the legs we bought this summer.

For me, I just don't see a system that produces goals in possession in a balanced way. The counterattacking goals aren't an issue, we have lots of midfielders who can turn and pass. We have one incredibly fast player, and the rest aren't slow. We look fine down a man. And that's the thing, I bet we'd have done better if Endo was sent off in this game, genuinely, because the idiots who just want to attack would be forced to have it in their mind to be more disciplined, and we'd counter.

Also, a man down, we couldn't have afforded the luxury of giving Trent that "quarterback" role. There's a reason that term has an American football name by the way. It's a stupid, inefficient thing for a team to do. When we shat on teams from a great height, VVD had that outlet ball. It didn't need to crack a defense, because that's always going to be low percentage stuff. It was during the Gerrard to Owen days, and he was a better finisher than all of our lot now. A CB can do what a "quarterback" can do. Having a different long passing deep lying midfielder confers only a marginal improvement, and removes that player from the game elsewhere. It's the opposite of total football. When Xabi Alonso did that for us we weren't a well-balanced, cohesive football team, and he was a midfielder. Now that we are doing it with a right back our team looks stupid on paper and on the pitch.

Trent goes there now, and we have what? A double pivot and two AMs? Perversely, in this new dildo formation on the ball, we are easier to beat down the middle somehow. I don't have a problem with it as a rule, but I do have a problem with it being a rule! It's a shape we should morph into when we are completely swanking a game and have possession. It's something we should try to change things up. It's supposed to be a flexible way of us getting different options, but instead I think it's as though we've abandoned some of the simple play that actually won us a lot of things down the flanks.

Harvey has got all sorts of credit for his performances, especially coming into games. He's been fine. Just fine, but part of why he attracts the eye is because he plays for a fucking cross sometimes, and isn't averse to using the flanks. Trent, especially in the last match, but also in this one, had fucking acres to exploit. Perhaps that isn't the plan, but if you are congesting the center so much, if you've got Salah inside right now, and not hugging wide, then someone has to use that space. That used to be the space we were trying to make with our system. Now we are given it and we won't take the gift.

When Salah does stay out right, he is fucking woeful. He can't do anything from there. Nothing. He isn't running down the wing. He's getting dispossessed. But who is out there for him to play off now that he can't beat a fullback? No one is having any fun with him at all. It's utterly one dimensional and pointless.

That someone can't be harvey elliot every time. It could be Szoboslai, who has good delivery, and good mobility, despite trailing along a gaggle of pundits constantly sucking his dick for some reason I can't discern. As pedestrian as Henderson was on the ball, and by god he was limited, at least he knew where the party was at. He'd hip it over there and play with the other much better players when we had to. He'd do a little dribble, bless him. They'd all create space and drive a cross. Nope, when Szobo receives the ball on the wing, it's deeper and only to gain the opposition half. Once we are there, his instinct is to go all AM-y, or take a really powerful, really low percentage shot. Mac Allister doesn't want to go out there, and just behind it all, it's the trent show, where we see an astonishing range of passing from his wonderful right foot.

And, even though he hailed a taxi while his man ran by him clear through onto goal, and even though he has the same attacking bias that imbalances our midfield throughout, there's no doubt that even on a bad day, his right foot is something to behold. He's got it all and it's all so effortless. My god, that's it, we've cracked it. How about he heads over, from time to time, of course, to the giant fucking vacuous space on the right and hits a cross at 900mphs onto someone's head?

Why can't he be a hybrid player on both ends of the pitch. Why does he go from RB to "Deep lying playmaker" but doesn't go from CM when pressed up into RW? It's not like his crosses don't look lethal when he's doing it. It's not like we don't have finishers in the box. We have two decent headers in Nunez and Jota. Why wouldn't we want a historically good crosser crossing balls? Why wouldn't we want defenders to have hard decisions to make? Toulouse basically had to defend everything from one side of the box to the other, all centrally, and they near enough fucked that up, but it was an easy ask. Same for Luton.

It's not even like we are reinventing the wheel here. It's like we forgot how we roll.
 
Yes 100% this. We were the best team in the world with a system that deployed our amazing full backs. We used to switch play relentlessly, stretch the opposition and find a way through, either patiently or through clever running and execution.

We have played the last handful of games with absolutely no width. It is amateur. I have written this too many times about Luton but all the stats were saying they conceded 16/18 goals this season down their left hand side, yet we decided to have the best RB in the league playing at LCM (not even at RCM!!!) and with Mo drifting in too. Everyone in the league has exploited their weakness but we decided to give them a free pass.

Our midfield never holds onto the ball, and I can't recall us looking confident in possession, knocking the ball around and dictating the tempo. Most of the time when we have the ball we are letting our opponents dictate the tempo. It is shocking.
 
It’s almost as if we fucked off all our old shit midfielders, signed 4 new ones, added them to a couple of kids & a former world class midfielder who is likely dead, rotated them regularly, played some of them out of position and then wondered why they’ve not jelled into a cohesive, multi-faceted world class, midfield by the time it takes DonnerVan to realise he’s wet himself and needs a change.

Not that I particularly disagree with what you said.
 
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We started the 'trent' role in midfield last year because Hendo, Fabs & Milner were deficient on the ball against a low block.

We then signed some very good ball playing midfielders - and as such should have ended that Trent experiment. We don't need him in the midfield - that is what Alexis, Gravy, Szobo are all there to do.
 
We started the 'trent' role in midfield last year because Hendo, Fabs & Milner were deficient on the ball against a low block.

We then signed some very good ball playing midfielders - and as such should have ended that Trent experiment. We don't need him in the midfield - that is what Alexis, Gravy, Szobo are all there to do.
Agree, not only deficient on the ball…fucking useless off it too.

The problem is Trent’s attitude, his shit performances at RB last season is an indication he doesn’t want to continue in that position any longer.
 
I don't really get it. He used to be lethal when he'd overlap with Mo, get into the box and pull back to our attackers. Genuinely can't think of a single time he has run that overlap this season. Bonkers.

Last season we could have made a case that Trent in CM was a better threat than those mentioned at the time, but IMO that isn't the case this season any more.
 
There are times where TAA reminds me of Beckham at Real Madrid whose highlight reel would often comprise of a few QB style passes a game. The thing with Beckham is that he realized his talent / ability didn't stack up against the others and he sacrificed himself for the team. That's not quite the case with Liverpool and TAA. I've never been convinced that he belongs in midfield and the hybrid situation we find ourselves dealing with now is a poor compromise (I bet in Klopp's mind too).

The wider issue though is that it feels like we're in the position of an international squad - lots of good options but missing player in position X / Y that would unlock the potential of the players we have.
 
I don't really get it. He used to be lethal when he'd overlap with Mo, get into the box and pull back to our attackers. Genuinely can't think of a single time he has run that overlap this season. Bonkers.

Last season we could have made a case that Trent in CM was a better threat than those mentioned at the time, but IMO that isn't the case this season any more.

All of this.

Fantastic initial post from @Farkmaster and you've nailed it here too, Brizz.

I get that tactics change, opponents adjust but, despite his statistical excellence, our current system doesn't make the best use of Mo or Trent, arguably our two most impactful offensive players.
 
Listen to Trent, thinking he is a boss midfielder:

"I enjoy learning about the game," said the England international.
"Watching things, watching players, different systems, different teams, how different players play it and there are some players who play it really well."

He says he "admires" Manchester City's Stones, who has similarly moved from defence into midfield for Pep Guardiola's side.

"I think as someone who plays the inverted, hybrid role - I don't know what people call it these days - then it is obviously John Stones," added Alexander-Arnold.
"He is someone who, for a long time, I have admired his game; he is exceptional, so I watch him a lot - clips or even when I am just watching City's games, I will sit and focus on him.
"I have always admired him and I admire the way [Stones' City team-mate] Rodri plays.
"He is pivotal in that team and someone who is massively underrated but like we have seen recently, when you take him out of the team, they are not the same. That just shows how important he is.

"I would say it is those kinds of players I watch, but there are a lot. I will watch players from the past as well - [Sergio] Busquets, [Xabi] Alonso, [Andrea] Pirlo, Stevie G [Gerrard] - those players I have always enjoyed watching."

Cannot wait to see his mug when he is put back at right back.
He should watch Zanetti, Cafu and Phil Neal.
 
I think Trent in midfield could be fine, even great, if we just play him there normally without sacrificing a right back.
The question is who would you drop for him to play there? He just doesn't work in our team. Ali-Mac is a better AM/LCM, Gravy better at ball retention and on the floor creativity around the box, Jones better at keeping the ball, Elliott has more energy, Szobo is miles better at nearly everything and even Endo is a better DM.

As an out and out midfielder I'd only rate Trent as 5th in our squad (depending on the opponents he could be as high as 3rd or 4th). Even then he isn't competing at LCM, DM or AM that only leaves RCM ... and Szobo is on another planet.
The only way it works is in a double pivot - which Klopp doesn't and won't play.

Trent should go back to what he was the best in the world at - an attacking RB - and coaching should be working on his defensive nouse and stamina.
 
This England call up is not doing us any favours.

Gareth Southgate thinks he's a midfielder, so obviously he is one now.

True greatness recognises its own.
 
I think Trent in midfield could be fine, even great, if we just play him there normally without sacrificing a right back.

Which is the most obvious thing to do and it has been for about 5yrs, but for some unfathomable reason it's Klopp's one blindstpot.
 
The question is who would you drop for him to play there? He just doesn't work in our team. Ali-Mac is a better AM/LCM, Gravy better at ball retention and on the floor creativity around the box, Jones better at keeping the ball, Elliott has more energy, Szobo is miles better at nearly everything and even Endo is a better DM.

As an out and out midfielder I'd only rate Trent as 5th in our squad (depending on the opponents he could be as high as 3rd or 4th). Even then he isn't competing at LCM, DM or AM that only leaves RCM ... and Szobo is on another planet.
The only way it works is in a double pivot - which Klopp doesn't and won't play.

Trent should go back to what he was the best in the world at - an attacking RB - and coaching should be working on his defensive nouse and stamina.

I don't really buy this. We're judging both Szobo and Gravenberch based largely on a handful of (admittedly) good performances, their quality is obvious, but Trent has done it for longer in a red shirt. The criticism's of Trent are basically defensive ones, everyone can have an off game, but he has bags more attacking talent than 90% of the squad. It's our fault that he's where he is, it's our fault he's stagnated because it was clear early on he wasn't going to get better as a defender, we should have focused on his strengths and pushed him to be as good as he can be in a role that made the most of his ability. He's better than Macca, and he's a better all round player than Endo, regardless of what we need. If we're buying a half decent stop gap DM who's a largely inferior player but we're now considering him as more crucial to how we actually play, then that's on the management team IMO.
 
I don't really buy this. We're judging both Szobo and Gravenberch based largely on a handful of (admittedly) good performances, their quality is obvious, but Trent has done it for longer in a red shirt. The criticism's of Trent are basically defensive ones, everyone can have an off game, but he has bags more attacking talent than 90% of the squad. It's our fault that he's where he is, it's our fault he's stagnated because it was clear early on he wasn't going to get better as a defender, we should have focused on his strengths and pushed him to be as good as he can be in a role that made the most of his ability. He's better than Macca, and he's a better all round player than Endo, regardless of what we need. If we're buying a half decent stop gap DM who's a largely inferior player but we're now considering him as more crucial to how we actually play, then that's on the management team IMO.
Well this debate raises a few points of interest :

1. Trent has done it longer in a Red Shirt of course - but as an attacking RB not an inverted RB/CM which is still in it's experimental stage.

2. Ali-Mac, Jones and Gravy can naturally play LCM - this isn't natural for Trent at all and to get the best out of him he'd have to be as strong on his left as his right. He's by no means one-footed like Robbo or Tsimikas but it's still his weaker foot (on occasion necessitating turning inside to pass with his right) even if it's better than most people's left ! So playing at LCM - I doubt he'd be as good as any of them, especially when taking defensive duties into consideration. At RCM he doesn't get a look in. That leaves CM or DM depending on how we play (or a double pivot, but that's highly unlikely). He's never going to be a DM so regardless of being a better player than Endo (of course he is, Trent is world class as an attacking RB) he's not as good as Endo as a DM.

3. No question he has incredible attacking talent, in fact that's the crux of the whole argument, that we are losing it (as the stats show, 19 assists in 21/22 as an attacking RB, to 10 in 22/23, and 3 so far this, as an inverted RB - and some of those games in 22/23 he was still playing as the former so it's likely half that number as an inverted RB).

4. Trent as an attacking RB meant we had two or three players supporting him when he got forward (RCM, CM and RCB) now however he doesn't get up that wing and when he goes central the CM/DM isn't covering the vacated slot, he's being pushed left or forward (or Trent will go much further forward) - so it's almost always being left to the RCB to cover.

Full disclosure, I came around to the idea of Trent as a CM, after initially being against it, as he seems to have the hallmark of one, but I think I was wrong. Maybe too early to be definitive just yet.
 
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If you consider our interest (past and potentially present) in various high profile defensive midfielders as genuine along with the fact that we have five young #8 / #10 type midfielders vying for two spots, it seems rather unlikely that TAA will be afforded any serious game time in midfield.

The team is currently unbalanced from top to bottom in my opinion and that is always going to highlight the various cracks we have.
 
Listen to Trent, thinking he is a boss midfielder:

"I enjoy learning about the game," said the England international.
"Watching things, watching players, different systems, different teams, how different players play it and there are some players who play it really well."

He says he "admires" Manchester City's Stones, who has similarly moved from defence into midfield for Pep Guardiola's side.

"I think as someone who plays the inverted, hybrid role - I don't know what people call it these days - then it is obviously John Stones," added Alexander-Arnold.
"He is someone who, for a long time, I have admired his game; he is exceptional, so I watch him a lot - clips or even when I am just watching City's games, I will sit and focus on him.
"I have always admired him and I admire the way [Stones' City team-mate] Rodri plays.
"He is pivotal in that team and someone who is massively underrated but like we have seen recently, when you take him out of the team, they are not the same. That just shows how important he is.

"I would say it is those kinds of players I watch, but there are a lot. I will watch players from the past as well - [Sergio] Busquets, [Xabi] Alonso, [Andrea] Pirlo, Stevie G [Gerrard] - those players I have always enjoyed watching."

Cannot wait to see his mug when he is put back at right back.
He should watch Zanetti, Cafu and Phil Neal.

I have no issue with a player looking to others for inspiration and how his own game can be developed looking both other positions and players.

Trents heatmap this season is pretty similar to what Phillip Lahm used to have for Bayern.
Our biggest challenge going forward will be to develop Trents game into being more adaptive in terms of which teams we are playing etc.
I agree completely with Brizzle regarding the width against Luton. That was very frustrating. We should have changed our approach when things werent working.

Trent as a permanent midfielder aint happening and it shouldnt either.
 
This is turning into a Trent thread. Trent is a big part of this, but here's the thing. Let's say Trent was a midfielder in that Luton game, or any of the games where we've played too centrally and haven't worked anything using width. In that game, with him as a cm, he should still have the instinct to exploit that space, or be directed to do so. If a team gives us space we should use it, it doesn't matter what position he is technically playing in.
 
I have no issue with a player looking to others for inspiration and how his own game can be developed looking both other positions and players.

Trents heatmap this season is pretty similar to what Phillip Lahm used to have for Bayern.
Our biggest challenge going forward will be to develop Trents game into being more adaptive in terms of which teams we are playing etc.
I agree completely with Brizzle regarding the width against Luton. That was very frustrating. We should have changed our approach when things werent working.

Trent as a permanent midfielder aint happening and it shouldnt either.

Please stop trying to emulate moron's passion and love for Curtis. He's pure and genuine, you're just being weird
 
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