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Pietersen England career over

I honestly hope England shit right out this summer, its nothing less than the team/suits deserve.

Funny how Cooks utter failure has been largely ignored isn't it?, used to really admire Cook the batsman but i can't help but think hes wanker now, sly little lapdog yes man, urgh.

How he has the front to carry on the captaincy after his humiliating moronic performance in Oz i don't know, could end up being a decision that cuts his England career short, if he had any sense he would be 100% concentrating on his batting.
 
I was never convinced that Cook was the right choice to captain England.

That said, the decision on Pietersen was 100% correct.
 
Captains are only ever as good as the collective strength and talent of the players on the team.

Cook was let down by senior players on several occasions by both batsmen and bowlers. He didn't need players going home with stress, bowlers retiring mid tour or reckless batting when grinding out big innings was needed.

The teams time had come, it wouldn't have mattered if you'd had Brearley leading it, it was done.
 
I was never convinced that Cook was the right choice to captain England.

That said, the decision on Pietersen was 100% correct.

Yep, ditching and scapegoating your best batsman is 100% the correct decsion, no question about it.

How can anyone argue with the clear and concise reasons for it?
 
Captains are only ever as good as the collective strength and talent of the players on the team.

Cook was let down by senior players on several occasions by both batsmen and bowlers. He didn't need players going home with stress, bowlers retiring mid tour or reckless batting when grinding out big innings was needed.

The teams time had come, it wouldn't have mattered if you'd had Brearley leading it, it was done.

If anything is 100% correct its that Cook is an awful captain.
 
Yep, ditching and scapegoating your best batsman is 100% the correct decsion, no question about it.

How can anyone argue with the clear and concise reasons for it?

Give over. "Scapegoating" my @rse - it's a team game and Pietersen's career is littered with examples of him destroying team spirit. It was thanks to Cook that he got back in the squad in the first place, and he still managed to p!$$ even Cook off in Australia. Remind me how many games he won on his own to make up for it....

Oh.
 
^^^^^ This - He's such a talented player and it's a shame his ego got the better of him. I'm happy to rebuild though. Team game. Oh and I think Cook is a great captain (and player). England will bounce back sooner rather than later.
 
Give over. "Scapegoating" my @rse - it's a team game and Pietersen's career is littered with examples of him destroying team spirit. It was thanks to Cook that he got back in the squad in the first place, and he still managed to p!$$ even Cook off in Australia. Remind me how many games he won on his own to make up for it....

Oh.

Hes been made a massive scapegoat for the Oz tour, Flower and Cook aswell as other players have avoided nearly all the blame that utter abortion of a tour, if you can't see that then there is no reasoning with you.

What did KP do wrong in Australia?
 
^^^^^ This - He's such a talented player and it's a shame his ego got the better of him. I'm happy to rebuild though. Team game. Oh and I think Cook is a great captain (and player). England will bounce back sooner rather than later.

Red, you are usually bang on with everything you say but your head has well and truly gone if you think Cook is a great captain.
 
The idea that others have "avoided blame" is pure bull. Flower's been canned and Cook has publicly acknowledged his and the team's mistakes.

In any case Pietersen wasn't fired because the tour was lost. He was fired because he indulged himself and his 24-carat cnutishness yet again (after having done so in the past for Natal, Notts, Hampshire AND England), just one example being when he got taken to task in the dressing-room for throwing his wicket away and his (widely reported) answer was "That's the way I play - take it or leave it". If you seriously imagine England would jettison a talent like his for no reason - especially after such a hiding in Australia - there is, to coin a phrase, no reasoning with you.
 
@Spaghetti Legs - Hmmm curious. Why do you think he's bad? I have set aside my thoughts on the ashes debacle as there were several other things that contributed to that. I'm not blaming that on Cook. This is the guy that steered England to victory IN India for the first time in 30 years. Not only that but at 29 he is surely going to go down as one of the greatest players to have played the game. Up there with Tendulker and Lara if he keeps this going. Setting aside batting prowess and just focusing on his captaincy - I know he got labelled as unimaginative by some pre ashes (Thanks Warne) but I've seen nothing to suggest that his captaincy is dire. Ok so we lost in Australia. Badly. I just think it's a little early to start condeming Cook.
 
The idea that others have "avoided blame" is pure bull. Flower's been canned and Cook has publicly acknowledged his and the team's mistakes.



In any case Pietersen wasn't fired because the tour was lost. He was fired because he indulged himself and his 24-carat cnutishness yet again (after having done so in the past for Natal, Notts, Hampshire AND England), just one example being when he got taken to task in the dressing-room for throwing his wicket away and his (widely reported) answer was "That's the way I play - take it or leave it". If you seriously imagine England would jettison a talent like his for no reason - especially after such a hiding in Australia - there is, to coin a phrase, no reasoning with you.


So what did KP do wrong in Oz? apart from getting snitched on by his shithouse captain in a private clear the air team meeting and giving his captain the correct advice on what could be be worked on to try and win the last test.

That was an interview with Agnew he said that line wasn't it?

I've argued this elsewhere with the minority that think it was the correct decision to dump him off, he really is marmite isn't he? he brings out strong feelings one way or the other and will continue to.

For me Freddie sums it up well...

First, the explanation. Freddie Flintoff sits down for coffee and spells out why he wishes to talk about England’s Ashes debacle. ‘I haven’t said anything all winter,’ he tells me. ‘I’ve been asked, but I haven’t spoken. Then you see something happening and you think, “No, that’s just not right”.’
So what’s not right? Kevin Pietersen’s not right; or rather his treatment at the hands of the ECB.
Flintoff admits he didn’t always see eye to eye with England’s finest stroke-playing batsman during his time as captain - but he never doubted Pietersen’s commitment to the cause, and believes he has been hung out to dry by senior players and officials fearful for their own futures after the tour from hell.

England captain during the last Ashes whitewash, Flintoff paid the price, but has long believed others who shared some of the responsibility on the 2006-07 tour were less willing to confess their shortcomings.


Kevin’s the gift that keeps on giving, isn’t he?’ he adds. ‘If England win he gets applauded, it’s an easy piece to write for the journalists and all his team-mates say he’s wonderful. If we lose, it’s as if it’s his fault, the same people in the Press slag him off and the team melt away. Everyone hides behind him.
Lose 5-0 in Australia and it falls on someone to be the scapegoat. In 2006 it was me. I was captain and I didn’t go about things the right way at times, so I deserved some of it. But not all of it. Sometimes you need help as a player, an arm around you, or someone to back you. Kevin deserved that. It wasn’t just him out there. I’d like someone to start talking about the group again, and not just when it suits.

If his attitude was that bad, why did he play five Tests? Who made the decision to drop him? Do they genuinely believe we are better off without him, or are they just fearful for their own jobs and too afraid to say no? I can’t imagine what Kevin could have done, or what the ECB could announce, that would allow this to make sense.


Kevin Pietersen was one of the two best cricketers I played with, alongside Marcus Trescothick. Not always the easiest, but I’m not saying I was either. You all have your moments. I liked that if he had a gripe, he would front it up. You knew exactly where you stood and I never had a problem with that.
Some of the so-called team players would give you everything while they were stood in front of you, and then go back to their hotel rooms to whisper about you. I had a better relationship with Kevin than many of the others.
Kevin’s a proud man who wants to win. And when you are in a side getting beat every week it’s hard to swallow, so he’s not the type to let that pass without getting involved.
He was the same with me. If he thought something wasn’t right in preparation or there was a player he didn’t think was working as hard as him, he would say. He’s got a fantastic work ethic. In 2006-07 he seemed to have a problem with the short ball, so he got peppered for hours in the nets and ended up scoring 600 runs. It seems he fell out with Alastair Cook over a fitness session before the Sydney Test. Kevin thought it was more important to work on technique and I’m inclined to agree. You’re not going to get fitter with one work-out before a Test.
If the fitness was off, the problem started a lot earlier and needed to be addressed then. At 4-0 down, when none of them could score a run or take a wicket, what is the point in a naughty-boy session?’
Some doubt Pietersen’s commitment to the cause, but not Flintoff.

He lost 5-0 yet he still wants more,’ he insists. ‘That is an admission of his desire. It would be easy to walk away from it. He’s a wealthy lad. Yet I spoke to him last year and asked him about retiring after this series and he put me in my place.
He wanted to play for England for a long time and made that very clear. He wanted 10,000 Test runs and if he is driven to achieve that, it would have been good for the team. He wasn’t doing it for the money. He wanted a legacy, but he’s been the victim of his own success. He’s the box-office player, he gets the endorsements, he gets the profile. I know what that is like. When it is going well people are behind you. Then, if you stop performing, there is resentment and jealousy.’
Flintoff has had a bee in his bonnet about this tour for a while. In a conversation several weeks ago, he said he considered Andy Flower’s position untenable after such a heavy defeat, adding that the uber-professional buttoned-down approach was counter-productive.



England’s players would benefit from the freedom introduced by Australia’s Darren Lehmann, he said - a view he reiterates now, after Flower’s departure.
When I started as a professional cricketer, it wasn’t a professional sport,’ Flintoff claims. ‘It only said it was. During my career it changed so much - and I tried to change too, but now it’s gone too far.
I first saw the signs before we left for that 2006-07 series. We had won the Ashes, but there was no enjoyment. The ECB were holding meetings as if we were going to war. They would be talking worst-case scenarios, building it up as if we would be spat on in the street.
Landing in Australia and they were talking about how we needed to be sneaked in by the back door because they were expecting chaos. It turned out one of the Minogue sisters was on our plane, so she took the attention and we stood there, looking at each other. Eventually someone said, “Just get on the bus, lads”.
Andy Flower has carried that on. He is quite dominating, quite controlling. The players need time to breathe and express themselves. That should be point one for any new coach. Let the players go out without fear of failure, let them eat what they want, within reason. I can’t think of anything worse than tofu. Let’s have some meat.

Lehmann taking over Australia may be good for our game, because he has shown how to strike the perfect balance. Yes, cricket needs to be professional, but it also needs to be a sport. There is a lot happening at the moment in that England team and it’s all very strange.
You could see it last summer. The 3-0 win flattered us because the Australians were plainly getting better, but we weren’t. Other things crept in, too. Peeing on the wicket at The Oval wasn’t good.
We’ve all wondered what possessed us to do things in life, me especially, but as a group you’d think someone would have stopped that. It was disrespectful to Australia. It was as if we thought we could do what we wanted.
Meanwhile, Darren Lehmann was stripping things back to basics, turning his team into fighting, aggressive Aussies and keeping it simple. They weren’t turning up for matches like us, with riders longer than Mariah Carey’s.
I was worried after the first Test in Brisbane when Cook was interviewed and asked about preparation. He said he would be sticking to the same plans as the summer but that’s standing still. Even when you’re successful you’ve got to strive to move forward.



The Australians were making progress. I don’t think they’re the best team but their aggression took England aback and we couldn’t return it. I was at an ECB awards ceremony and Jimmy Anderson picked up a Barmy Army award for sledging Mitchell Johnson. Now the boot’s on the other foot, we don’t like it. You’ve got to be careful.
Stuart Broad took the local newspaper into the Press conference after day one in Brisbane to try to score points. He’d got a few wickets but we should have bowled them out more cheaply - it’s a dangerous game and we got found out. We ended up acting like victims and the Aussies knew they had us.


As good as you think you are, the game does get you. The bad run is always just around the corner and we should have realised that.
I remember in a match against Pakistan telling Shoaib Akhtar that he looked like Tarzan and bowled like Jane. He got me next ball. I think the worst I ever gave it out was to Yuvraj Singh, the over before he hit Stuart Broad for six sixes. That went well.
I played for Lancashire against Matthew Hayden and he was 90 not out overnight. We had a meeting and the senior players decided to sledge him. Actually, they decided I should sledge him. It was my third game. So I stood at silly point while Gary Yates bowled off-spin and absolutely gave it to him. He got out trying to cut the ball so hard at me that he edged it behind.
It was a temporary dressing room, on stilts, and I could see it was shaking where he was in such a fury. I walked off the field on the opposite side at lunch because I thought he’d be waiting for me. Before I went out to bat, he came up to me. “You think you’re special, don’t you?” “Er, not really”. “Well, this game has a way of biting you on the arse. Remember that”.
I made 100, and breezed past him. “Still waiting for that bite, Matt”. But it was so true, so right. I’ve seen this England team giving out verbals on TV but once the Aussies stopped being nice and got that spite back, we didn’t like it and the tour became a disaster.


Lehmann got his side playing for each other. Even last summer when they were getting beat, they lost as a team. That’s hard to do.
Graeme Swann’s great, but he might look back in a few years and think walking away after three Test matches, even if he was injured or about to be dropped, wasn’t right. This is a guy who says he is the heartbeat of the team because of his character - he owed it to the other players to see the tour out.
Scott Borthwick needed someone to sit on his shoulder, to talk him through it, and Swann owed at least that to the side.

Did Swann’s decision help England? No. What message did it send to the opposition about where England were as a group when the best bowler went home? If you were in that Australia dressing room, you would have loved it.’


Flintoff’s belief is that English cricket needs an overhaul and, for this reason, it was wrong to drop Pietersen before a new coach was appointed.
If I was considering coaching England, I’d want Kevin Pietersen,’ he added. ‘The job is less attractive without him. You’d want the best players. Graham Ford, Gary Kirsten - I’m sure these people would want Kevin. I don’t think any situation is irretrievable. Yes, those text messages during the match with South Africa were not good. But Kevin ate a bit of humble pie and got on with it, so whatever happened in Australia could have been resolved, too.

Michael Clarke and Shane Watson have also had their problems, but they put them aside this winter. You’ll never have a dressing room where everyone likes each other. You’re put together because you’ve got a shared talent for cricket.


It’s like any other workplace: you’ve got mates, you’ve got the guys you can rub along with, and the odd one you’re not having under any circumstances. As long as you come together on the field, it doesn’t matter. You don’t have to invite these people to weddings, just stick by each other in games.
Michael Vaughan wouldn’t be remembered as a great England captain without Kevin Pietersen. I couldn’t have turned in some of my performances without Ashley Giles making me look good by bowling at the dog end for hours. This England side all owe some of their success to Kevin. He has helped them win, and that brings in sponsors and money. When it’s going well they all embrace it, and now they need to be honest and not let one guy carry the can.’

 
@Spaghetti Legs - Hmmm curious. Why do you think he's bad? I have set aside my thoughts on the ashes debacle as there were several other things that contributed to that. I'm not blaming that on Cook. This is the guy that steered England to victory IN India for the first time in 30 years. Not only that but at 29 he is surely going to go down as one of the greatest players to have played the game. Up there with Tendulker and Lara if he keeps this going. Setting aside batting prowess and just focusing on his captaincy - I know he got labelled as unimaginative by some pre ashes (Thanks Warne) but I've seen nothing to suggest that his captaincy is dire. Ok so we lost in Australia. Badly. I just think it's a little early to start condeming Cook.

Hes dire, probably the worst of all the test captains, he has no cricket brain, uninspiring, is uber negative, reactive not pro active in the slightest, lacks any type of imagination and man management skills, cowardly, he can barely speak properly when interviewed and when he does its just the same bs script that hes been given every time.

I could go on but there really shouldn't be any need because it really is quite obvious, hes a horrible captain, the wins were despite him though the Indian away win was quite suited the negative game plan, i hope Morgan can take his chance and play well and then get the captaincy, its only a matter of time before he gets the ODI captaincy from Cook.

We need a spark, Cook is the wettest of blankets, if he does end up with the numbers yeah he'll be up there with Lara and Tendulkar stats wise but as a player he is nowhere near their class.
 
Considering his age I think it's probably the correct decision to drop him from the side, although I don't like a lot of the BS that's been used as an excuse in order to do it.
 
Thing is, mate, I don't believe it *is* BS. Pietersen's record of sowing discord is as long as your arm, and people to whom he directly owed the resumption of his England career - Cook and Flower - were heavily involved in the decision to drop him, which tells its own story. Spaghetti quotes Freddie Flintoff above, but Flintoff has a stake in saying that stuff because he himself was a Marmite character who split the England dressing-room.
 
Oh I don't doubt that KP can be a major pain in the arse mate that's always been the case, you just need to look at his time in SA, Notts, Hampshire and whilst with the England team to know this. It's just that imo I suspect that the powers that be have blown this up in order get rid of him AND to take some of the heat off of them from this winters tour.
 
Oh I don't doubt that KP can be a major pain in the arse mate that's always been the case, you just need to look at his time in SA, Notts, Hampshire and whilst with the England team to know this. It's just that imo I suspect that the powers that be have blown this up in order get rid of him AND to take some of the heat off of them from this winters tour.

Totally agree, i wonder what would of happened if KP scored 500 runs?
 
Another worrying thing is that Flower is still around lurking in the shadows, he needs binning off completely.

Having him working with young players is a horrible thought, i would hate to see his dour negativity be allowed to seep into the youngsters.
 
If you took KP out of that team, England wouldn't have won in India. You need someone to dominate like he did.

I agree a lot with Flintoff. The job description for being in England team should never involve getting along with the rest of the team. It should always be about contributing to the team.
 
It's extremely difficult - at best - to do the latter without the former. Pietersen was accommodated within the set-up for a long time, even to the extent of being readmitted after a previous bout of egomania from him ripped the camp apart. If those having to cope with him on a regular basis - including more than one of the prime movers in his return to the side - have reached the point where they think the damage he's doing outweighs the benefits he brings, I honestly don't think anyone on the outside of it all is in a position to substitute their judgment for that of the people on the spot.
 
Yep, ditching and scapegoating your best batsman is 100% the correct decsion, no question about it.

How can anyone argue with the clear and concise reasons for it?


Hes not our best batsmen anymore though is he? Since his "reintegation" into the team post textgate he has only scored two tons and averages 35ish. Not exactly world class eh. Scapegoating - what a load of bollocks - admit it apart from 6 weeks at the IPL and Surrey he has fallen out with EVERY team he played in including the club side he played for when he first came to the uk. The twat could start an argument in an empty room and using that toad Piers Morgan as his mouthpiece is cuntishness of the highest order imho especially drawing Prior into it
Great talent ruined by even greater ego
 
Hes dire, probably the worst of all the test captains, he has no cricket brain, uninspiring, is uber negative, reactive not pro active in the slightest, lacks any type of imagination and man management skills, cowardly, he can barely speak properly when interviewed and when he does its just the same bs script that hes been given every time.

I could go on but there really shouldn't be any need because it really is quite obvious, hes a horrible captain, the wins were despite him though the Indian away win was quite suited the negative game plan, i hope Morgan can take his chance and play well and then get the captaincy, its only a matter of time before he gets the ODI captaincy from Cook.

We need a spark, Cook is the wettest of blankets, if he does end up with the numbers yeah he'll be up there with Lara and Tendulkar stats wise but as a player he is nowhere near their class.
I don't agree but I'm willing to give closer scrutiny to his captaincy given your argument. I naturally stopped watching the ashes after a bit. My wifes gloating got a tad too intolerable (She's an Aussie btw). As far as questioning his batting ability you are very very wrong. He's a sublime player. Anyone that watched the previous ashes in Australia will tell you that. I was there and was lucky enough to catch two tests. He was unbelievably good.
 
No Red im not very very wrong at all, I didn't question his batting ability at all there, just said Cook really is nowhere near Lara and Sachins class, 2 players that could easily walk into an all time world cricket XI, i have never heard Cook described as a sublime batsman before, Ian Bell can be sublime, so can KP, Cooks had had a couple of great series that will always be remembered, rightfully so, of course he is a very very good batsman but hes limited, hes a grafter/grinder much like Trott, the Aussies have had him well sussed in the 10 matches, good disciplined fast bowling he has always struggled with.

I would expect him to get out of his form slump against SL and India as historically they are 2 of his favorite teams to bat against, main reason being their pace attacks have never been up to much, hes under massive pressure now though with still being captain and the fallout from this winter, he should really just be 100% focussed on his batting otherwise his career might end up being shorter than expected, hes in the side because hes captain right now, not because of his current batting form, gonna be interesting to see what happens.
 
No Red im not very very wrong at all, I didn't question his batting ability at all there, just said Cook really is nowhere near Lara and Sachins class, 2 players that could easily walk into an all time world cricket XI, i have never heard Cook described as a sublime batsman before, Ian Bell can be sublime, so can KP, Cooks had had a couple of great series that will always be remembered, rightfully so, of course he is a very very good batsman but hes limited, hes a grafter/grinder much like Trott, the Aussies have had him well sussed in the 10 matches, good disciplined fast bowling he has always struggled with.

I would expect him to get out of his form slump against SL and India as historically they are 2 of his favorite teams to bat against, main reason being their pace attacks have never been up to much, hes under massive pressure now though with still being captain and the fallout from this winter, he should really just be 100% focussed on his batting otherwise his career might end up being shorter than expected, hes in the side because hes captain right now, not because of his current batting form, gonna be interesting to see what happens.
It will be interesting. I guess we'll have agree to disagree for the time being.
 
Hes not our best batsmen anymore though is he? Since his "reintegation" into the team post textgate he has only scored two tons and averages 35ish. Not exactly world class eh. Scapegoating - what a load of bollocks - admit it apart from 6 weeks at the IPL and Surrey he has fallen out with EVERY team he played in including the club side he played for when he first came to the uk. The twat could start an argument in an empty room and using that toad Piers Morgan as his mouthpiece is cuntishness of the highest order imho especially drawing Prior into it
Great talent ruined by even greater ego

He is, and even if he wasn't hes easily one of our best 6 batsman.

Who would you say is our best batsman?

Tbh if he was ever goning to get binned off it should of been with the text thing, he was naive and stupid as fuck there and you can say well set up by the Saffers if you are into those sort of games.

Swann and Anderson 2 players known not to get on well with KP have both come out and said there have been no issues at all with him since coming back, if he had really fucked up then i would be sad not to see him in and England shirt again but understand, how anyone can't see hes been made the scapegoat here boggles the mind really.
 
That bit about Swann and Anderson is just wrong. Swann's said that his comments in the media weren't aimed at Pietersen. Anderson's said there were no problems when Pietersen returned to the squad.

One thing Anderson also said is that Cook's an excellent captain.
 
Think you misread the Swann/Anderson comments, you are right.

There were positive things about KP with the England players in Oz like spending a lot of time helping the lower order batsman dealing with bouncers, but of course KP is just out for himself.

Tbh honest Anderson isn't going to say anything else regarding Cook captaincy, he'll tow the party line.

The ex player pundits are the ones to listen to for an valid opinion and none of them would say Cook is and excellent captain.
 
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