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The Lions

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It's not just the Tests, mate (though some of what's gone on there has been bad enough), it's the whole schtick of breaking their agreement to play full provincial sides as well. I accept the point about stretching the rules, but there is a line you do not cross and in my book the S.Africans have got away with crossing it. Maybe we just have to get as down and dirty as they are from the start, instead of waiting till they get going with the dodgy stuff.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=32866.msg896545#msg896545 date=1246188945]
It's not just the Tests, mate (though some of what's gone on there has been bad enough), it's the whole schtick of breaking their agreement to play full provincial sides as well. I accept the point about stretching the rules, but there is a line you do not cross and in my book the S.Africans have got away with crossing it. Maybe we just have to get as down and dirty as they are from the start, instead of waiting till they get going with the dodgy stuff.
[/quote]

I didn't realise they had done that regarding the provincial sides JJ.

I'll never ever condone that biting or gouging have any part to play in our game, i do firmly believe though that nearly anything else goes if you can get away with it. I would have thought that you would be very appreciative of the dark arts of rugby, especially during the Martin Johnson era :)

I guess it's one of those things that is acceptable depending on wether it's our side receiving or dishing it out.
 
Fair point about Johnno but I guess I'd refer back to what I said just before. Other teams have fielded such players, using such tactics, against us for decades before we finally caught up and made Johnno not only an international but also the captain.

You can talk incidentally, coming from the land which gave rugby the Viet Gwent. ;)
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=32866.msg896781#msg896781 date=1246213102]
Fair point about Johnno but I guess I'd refer back to what I said just before. Other teams have fielded such players, using such tactics, against us for decades before we finally caught up and made Johnno not only an international but also the captain.

You can talk incidentally, coming from the land which gave rugby the Viet Gwent. ;)


[/quote]

Mate those 3 were always tough but fair, never dirty :)

One of my main gripes about the Welsh national team over the years is that they have lacked that win at all costs mentality, when i've watched the great teams they always seem to have at least a few players in them that will go that extra yard to get the result (legal or not). I read Chris Jacks comments on the European game recently and i thought he made some fair points. He basically implied that a lot of our lads were soft and that they didn't have that killer instinct.

Hopefully with lead men such as Gatland/Edwards, Johnson and Kidney that won't be the case for much longer.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=32866.msg896534#msg896534 date=1246187684]
the fact remains that South Africa have basically cheated their way to winning this series.
[/quote]

Sheesh, but if it as the other way round, what would the overall consensus be here? "Smart play" etc, it's just like the Gerrard vs Ronaldo diving debate.

Well done to the Springboks.
 
South Africa is like Australia in sports. They do punch above their weight in rugby, golf and cricket. They seems to be emerging in football too.
 
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=32866.msg896972#msg896972 date=1246251459]
South Africa is like Australia in sports. They do punch above their weight in rugby, golf and cricket. They seems to be emerging in football too.
[/quote]

ha ha no chance mate, they're shite.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=32866.msg896969#msg896969 date=1246250411]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=32866.msg896534#msg896534 date=1246187684]
the fact remains that South Africa have basically cheated their way to winning this series.
[/quote]

Sheesh, but if it as the other way round, what would the overall consensus be here? "Smart play" etc, it's just like the Gerrard vs Ronaldo diving debate.

Well done to the Springboks.
[/quote]

Avram, this shows an unusually short memory for you. Two years ago when the S.Africans deservedly beat England to win the World Cup I gave them full credit for it.

This, I'm afraid, was very different. As I said in an earlier post, there's a line that should not be crossed. Eye-gouging for example is a long way beyond that line and sorry, but it's a S.African speciality when they're up against it. The S.African Rugby Union also signed a legal agreement that the Springboks would not be kept out of their respective provincial sides (to equalise the chances of injury) which they promptly and repeatedly broke. The Springboks are a good side who played some great rugby at times. They're also a very dirty one who today are celebrating a series they stole.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=32866.msg897125#msg897125 date=1246272670]
I hate the Boks.
[/quote]

The Boks love you.
 
The way the Boks went about their business left a bit of a sour taste it has to be said.

There's plenty of opportunities to get physical in a game without resorting to taking men out off the ball and eye gouging.

Burger got away with the minimum ban length as well. Lucky boy.
 
[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=32866.msg896371#msg896371 date=1246125891]

Anyone here Australian?

See the State of Origin this week? What a game, man. You'll never see better.


[/quote]

I was at Game 2 last week. Incredible game, but class and Origin experience told in the end.

It's hard to see how a side with JT, Lockyer, Slater and Inglis in it will ever lose to NSW to be honest.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg897429#msg897429 date=1246305650]
The way the Boks went about their business left a bit of a sour taste it has to be said.

There's plenty of opportunities to get physical in a game without resorting to taking men out off the ball and eye gouging.

Burger got away with the minimum ban length as well. Lucky boy.
[/quote]

The behaviour of their coach in condoning what Burger did was reprehensible too. He was already under pressure before the tour even started, so maybe that has something to do with it, but even so there ought to be some comeback against him.
 
He got a bit of a slap on the wrist in the statement by the SARFU today, but that's not enough.

I'm a little bit worried about what sort of team the Lions can field this weekend. BOD is out, Jones and Jenkins out. Roberts hasn't been confirmed yet.
 
I was just wondering that myself. D'Arcy and Fitzgerald could work in the centre, with Williams getting his chance on the left wing, and Sheridan will be OK in the front row, but the choice between Vickery and one of the new arrivals for the other prop slot is not an appetising one.
 
Can Payne play tighthead ?

I hope Roberts is fit, if not it'll be Flutey at 12 with either D'arcy or Earls outside him is probably most likely.

Is Byrne back ? Kearney is a cert to play after his two performances but we could move one of the two to the wing and bring Bowe into the centre instead of BOD.
 
Don't honestly know enough about Payne to comment on his ability to switch over. Forgot about Flutey - agree about the centres. I'm pretty sure Byrne's tour is over unfortunately.
 
Byrne is out.

Powell in the centres?

I don't actually mind if we lose this one, i just hope we take a few SA's out during the game.
 
There'd be some grim satisfaction in that but I'd prefer not to lose and get whitewashed, though I think it's likely.

For me the way this tour's panned out raises questions about (among other things) the right mental approach to a S.African tour.  When Willie John's men rampaged through the place, they didn't put half the emphasis which McGeechan's placed on keeping their discipline - not that they started trouble, but by f'ck they made sure they finished it, without delay.  In a way I dislike saying it, but maybe we have to take a leaf out of that book again next time.
 
One Irish Journo labelled the South African coach as "P Divvy" yesterday.

On a similar theme, BOD has a go:

"When I heard those comments I ­wondered how someone can get away with something like that," said O'Driscoll. "Irrespective of any subsequent apology, I find it an absolute disgrace that a coach of a national team can make comments about gouging being part of the game. Parents questioning whether their kid should play rugby or soccer would have had their decision made right there. To hear a national coach saying gouging is acceptable in any shape or form in the modern-day game is despicable. I find it mind-boggling. Essentially it brought the game into disrepute. I just can't believe for a second that he [De Villiers] thought he [Burger] would get away with it."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jun/30/brian-odriscoll-lions-south-africa-peter-de-villiers
 
"P.Divvy" is class.

Roberts has apparently said he thinks he'll be fit for the Final Test and, being the latest in the line of Lions who are doctors, he ought to know.
 
2nd string named:

South Africa: 15 Zane Kirchner, 14 Odwa Ndungane, 13 Jaque Fourie, 12 Wynand Olivier, 11 Jongi Nokwe, 10 Morne Steyn, 9 Fourie du Preez, 8 Ryan Kankowski, 7 Juan Smith, 6 Heinrich Brussow, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Johann Muller, 3 John Smit, 2 Chiliboy Ralepelle, 1 Tendai Mtawarira.
 
B&I Lions: 15 Rob Kearney, 14 Ugo Monye, 13 Tommy Bowe, 12 Riki Flutey, 11 Shane Williams, 10 Stephen Jones, 9 Mike Phillips, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 Martyn Williams, 6 Joe Worsley, 5 Paul O'Connell, 4 Simon Shaw, 3 Phil Vickery, 2 Matthew Rees, 1 Andrew Sheridan.

Replacements: 16 Ross Ford, 17 John Hayes, 18 Alun-Wyn Jones, 19 David Wallace, 20 Tom Croft, 21 Harry Ellis, 22 James Hook.
 
Hmm. Vickery opposite the Beast again, unless they swap the props over on the day (Sheridan did actually play at 3 when he originally switched from the back row, though he hasn't played there at all for two or three years now). Rowntree's got his work cut out on the training pitch between now and then.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=32866.msg898702#msg898702 date=1246537860]
Hmm. Vickery opposite the Beast again, unless they swap the props over on the day (Sheridan did actually play at 3 when he originally switched from the back row, though he hasn't played there at all for two or three years now). Rowntree's got his work cut out on the training pitch between now and then.
[/quote]

I'll confidently state now mate that Vickery will do just fine against the "beast".
 
Oh, I think he's capable of it all right. The question is whether he can make the changes he'll need to make (a) quickly enough and (b) to the required standard.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=32866.msg898745#msg898745 date=1246540266]
Oh, I think he's capable of it all right. The question is whether he can make the changes he'll need to make (a) quickly enough and (b) to the required standard.
[/quote]

I think it will help that he's got Rees and Shaw next/behind him.

I fully expect to see Vickery put in a stand out performance.
 
I think he'll be better but not because of Rees and Shaw. If he gets the hit right in the scrums he'll be fine. He was way off last time. I'm glad he got a chance to redeem himself anyway.

Powell doesn't make one Test squad ......
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=32866.msg898997#msg898997 date=1246562576]
I think he'll be better but not because of Rees and Shaw. If he gets the hit right in the scrums he'll be fine. He was way off last time. I'm glad he got a chance to redeem himself anyway.

Powell doesn't make one Test squad ......
[/quote]

Now now Ross. Don't be a bad winner.

Ah why not..
 
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