US Election thread - Kamala v Donald
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Would someone like to help me understand all this “Trump is a fascist” stuff? This is probably just for my own benefit. Putting my thinking cap on now, be warned…
From Webster:
Fascism : a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition
“Populist political philosophy or movement” - ok, I’m good with that part. Trump has tapped into an America first sensibility that focuses on regular people concerns. And the election is evidence that it resonates across geographies (huge pickups in NY and NJ, as well as winning all the swing states), races (huge pickups in Latino and black votes), and political parties (tons of Ds voted for him for the first time).
“Regime” - in the generic sense that it is a “government in power” (Webster), yes. In the way that liberals apply it to a Trump administration? no. Factually inapplicable.
“Exalts nation and often race above the individual” - no. He puts America above any other nation. And Americans above any other nationalities. Rightly so, as he’s in America. Doesn’t love centralized government. Is pretty consistently pro-individual, although as in all things individuals disagree so some see him as anti-individual because, for example, he doesn’t think boys should be competing against girls in girls sports. This is politics since the beginning of time, though.
“Associated with a centralized autocratic government” - no. ‘Autocracy’ is government in which one person possesses unlimited power (again Webster). Factually inapplicable.
“Dictatorial leader” - no. ‘Dictator’ is one ruling in an absolute and often oppressive way (Webster). Factually inapplicable.
“Severe economic and social regimentation” - no. ‘Regimentation’ is to organize rigidly especially for the sake of regulation or control (Webster). Groups of people aligning by belief or political philosophy is not the same as being organized rigidly by the government. There are no yellow stars. And please avoid the bombast of moronic politicians who claim otherwise. Liberals are the champions of regulation and control. That’s axiomatic whether you like their regulations or not.
“Forcible suppression of opposition” - no, but I think this is probably where most Trump haters congregate when thinking of him as a fascist. They gloss over the fact that it is liberals who love censoring free speech, colluding and even coercing private businesses like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Google, Instagram into banning or downranking or shadowbanning voices they disagree with (well documented, I’m not going to do your research for you). But ok, if you think that illegal immigrants should get a free ride into the country, then you might think that Trump’s policies are oppressive (as an example, there are many policy disagreements I could cite). As far as I can see, Trump favors free speech bigly and hasn’t put his political enemies in prison or waged lawfare against them or made up false impeachment charges…
But the key term is “forcible”. As in, effected by force used against opposition or resistance (Webster). Like, the kind of suppression that P’nut experienced before his untimely execution. The weight of the law used to prosecute, persecute, silence, and bully opponents. You know, like the IRS and FBI have done against conservatives and Christians.
Conclusion: “Trump is a fascist” is brainless pablum. It’s emotional vomit taking the place of critical thinking and thoughtfulness. It should be replaced with “I hate Trump’s policies and I think his past morals are questionable.” It’s the kind of phrase that motivates regular Americans not in deep blue urban areas to vote against Democrats, who should really learn that lesson someday if they want to win another presidential election.
From Webster:
Fascism : a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition
“Populist political philosophy or movement” - ok, I’m good with that part. Trump has tapped into an America first sensibility that focuses on regular people concerns. And the election is evidence that it resonates across geographies (huge pickups in NY and NJ, as well as winning all the swing states), races (huge pickups in Latino and black votes), and political parties (tons of Ds voted for him for the first time).
“Regime” - in the generic sense that it is a “government in power” (Webster), yes. In the way that liberals apply it to a Trump administration? no. Factually inapplicable.
“Exalts nation and often race above the individual” - no. He puts America above any other nation. And Americans above any other nationalities. Rightly so, as he’s in America. Doesn’t love centralized government. Is pretty consistently pro-individual, although as in all things individuals disagree so some see him as anti-individual because, for example, he doesn’t think boys should be competing against girls in girls sports. This is politics since the beginning of time, though.
“Associated with a centralized autocratic government” - no. ‘Autocracy’ is government in which one person possesses unlimited power (again Webster). Factually inapplicable.
“Dictatorial leader” - no. ‘Dictator’ is one ruling in an absolute and often oppressive way (Webster). Factually inapplicable.
“Severe economic and social regimentation” - no. ‘Regimentation’ is to organize rigidly especially for the sake of regulation or control (Webster). Groups of people aligning by belief or political philosophy is not the same as being organized rigidly by the government. There are no yellow stars. And please avoid the bombast of moronic politicians who claim otherwise. Liberals are the champions of regulation and control. That’s axiomatic whether you like their regulations or not.
“Forcible suppression of opposition” - no, but I think this is probably where most Trump haters congregate when thinking of him as a fascist. They gloss over the fact that it is liberals who love censoring free speech, colluding and even coercing private businesses like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Google, Instagram into banning or downranking or shadowbanning voices they disagree with (well documented, I’m not going to do your research for you). But ok, if you think that illegal immigrants should get a free ride into the country, then you might think that Trump’s policies are oppressive (as an example, there are many policy disagreements I could cite). As far as I can see, Trump favors free speech bigly and hasn’t put his political enemies in prison or waged lawfare against them or made up false impeachment charges…
But the key term is “forcible”. As in, effected by force used against opposition or resistance (Webster). Like, the kind of suppression that P’nut experienced before his untimely execution. The weight of the law used to prosecute, persecute, silence, and bully opponents. You know, like the IRS and FBI have done against conservatives and Christians.
Conclusion: “Trump is a fascist” is brainless pablum. It’s emotional vomit taking the place of critical thinking and thoughtfulness. It should be replaced with “I hate Trump’s policies and I think his past morals are questionable.” It’s the kind of phrase that motivates regular Americans not in deep blue urban areas to vote against Democrats, who should really learn that lesson someday if they want to win another presidential election.
Re: fascist labels - It's in the first paragraph of my previous post.
Biden's moral compass - what specific evidence do you have in mind, it's like calling Trump a Nazi - no evidence for that. Again I am citing Americans who suspicions about his sons business dealings involving him as the 'big guy' allowing privileged access. I'm sure there'll be an investigation (including searches of his residence etc as with Trump) now power has shifted. No doubt some infraction can be found (Joe Biden had a long career) and then worked up into a felony.
On a personal level I thought his moral compass low describing the electorate as garbage but of course he does have free speech so no crime committed.
Desperate propaganda - again I was citing American's saying that personal attacks about Trump c.f Nazi etc put them off. As for parroting right wing propaganda I'm neither American or right wing only having voted for centrist parties in UK so yes you're missing that.
At the end of the day Americans decided to vote Trump and not Harris, why they held them or if they held them to different standards (you have evidence?) I do not know, please explain.
Time to get behind the new President for the tasks ahead?
Err where in my post can you see me saying he stole the election?
Im stating the absolute facts that he did the exact same score as 4 years ago in the popular vote.
She lost 10 mio votes compared to Biden 4 years ago which is more evidence of a lower popularity with minorities and left leaning democrats than
a sweeping victory from Trump as some media would say...
The noises about a big Starlink scandal are getting louder though....
Crooks steal... and now noises too ... I miss the days of "fair elections," not like the ones in Russia obviously 🙂
The absolute fact is that he won slightly more votes (100k+ when I checked 2 days ago).
I would ask how do 10 million voters vote for Joe in 20 and then don't see the importance of doing the same in 24? Was she that bad of a candidate? I don't have answers but hopefully both parties have better people in 2028.
There are a small number of swing voters. Plus you'll see a great number of dems who do not like the state that Biden has left the country in and thought Kamala was more of the same.
I try not to think that way - not sure it's healthy one way or the other.
Probably naive on my part but oh well.
It's 900k more now, they are still counting. I don't think any state has finished counting yet. Likely to end up millions more voting for him.
But you're right, millions that voted for Biden went and voted for Trump. The message of if people were better off in 2020 vs 2024, seems to have worked.
Very unlikely Gerry, its 98-99% votes in most states now...Actually the gap between Trump and Harris has gotten smaller these last few days.
Hes doing slightly better than 4 years ago (circa 1 mio more votes), his base was very mobilized this year, more early votes from Republicans and Musk's dodgy stuff in the last few weeks made the difference...
Hes doing slightly better than 4 years ago (circa 1 mio more votes), his base was very mobilized this year, more early votes from Republicans and Musk's dodgy stuff in the last few weeks made the difference...
(i'm not bothering with rounding up or down)
2020 - Biden gets 81mm, Trump gets 74mm ... ~47% of the popular vote
2024 - Trump gets 74 mm, Harris gets 71mm - ~51% of the popular vote
6% drop in overall votes - which is mind boggling, considering the reality everyone thinks the US is in (whichever camp they're in).
I think Trump is going to appoint Rubio to get him out of the Senate and let Desantis appoint someone more Trumpy. I don’t think Trump believes in Rubio’s ability to do this job the best.
There's 3m still to come in California alone. It's too early to compare to other elections. Which will most likely be a decent amount go Harris.
Doge
So they're no longer trying to hide it. Big business is openly taking control of the machinery of government.
White supremacy ones?
I thought that. They really look like them. But apparently not. Unless anyone can find a link between the Jerusalem Cross and White Supremacy. Wasn't really a rabbit hole I wanted to go too deep down.
View: https://x.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1856808767578673484
This is gonna be a wild 4 years.
Edit: Gaetz is the attorney General.. offering Trump legal advice.
We the people is the first three words in the Constitution. That old rag that transformed the world’s view on government by and for the people.
To be fair, your honor, that’s been happening for decades. I’m a big fan of capitalism, not a big fan of crony capitalism which is what we have turned into over here. Regulatory capture is rife especially in finance, health care, pharma.
The more they root that garbage out the better for regular families.
I don't really like Musk - but I do think the approach of needing to do sweeping changes to the cost base of government spending is essential. Same in the UK. Over decades we have built up organisations and initiatives that take up a significant amount of future budgets and if you don't want the government to increase revenue (taxes) then they need to decrease costs.
It might not be pretty, and it will be unfair on a lot of people no doubt but I expect this DOGE stuff to be quite effective. It might even be something we take note of over here in order to be able to put government spending where it is needed.
It might not be pretty, and it will be unfair on a lot of people no doubt but I expect this DOGE stuff to be quite effective. It might even be something we take note of over here in order to be able to put government spending where it is needed.
Do you really think people are going to do it for free though? If I was a graduate, I wouldn't accept the gig.
I think working for free as an intern is pretty common these days in the states. A sorry state of affairs altogether.
Do you really think the salary is zero based on that tweet?
It worked out well over here with trains, water and electricity.
It's Musk and internships are common in the states like Athens said.
So yeah, very plausible that Musk thinks that it'll happen.
"Deus Vult" is the tattoo that absolutely is a white supremacist motto. It is Latin for God Wills It and is associated with the first Crusade to take the Holy Lands from the Islamic Caliphate which ruled the Middle East in the eleventh century. Like a lot of other medieval crusading iconography, it has been taken on by US white supremacists. So you can delude yourself all you want, or just own it that these guys are your fucking friends.
