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Why are we getting done on the counter...missing Gini?

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mwake

mwake

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Our midfield has never been the flashiest or the most technically gifted, but one thing our midfield is known for is being well organized and tactically sharp. In the games we've struggled, I felt our midfield has lacked a player that can quickly and intelligently anticipate opposition counter-attacks and transition into attack. Gini was never a spectacular player and many criticized him for not producing enough when going forward but one thing Gini did time and time again was always ensuring that he read situations and that his position was on-point so that the overall midfield shape could do its job.

I don't think for us its a case of just buying any old CM/DM we have to ensure whoever we get has that intelligence and tactical awareness. Last week Bissoma played really well against us for Brighton, I don't know much about him apart from that one game, he defo looks extremely physical but does he have the tactical discipline as well?

Apart from Bissoma what other midfield players out there should we be targeting?
 
Yes we are missing Gini, not just for the reasons listed above but for the much undervalued qualities of stability and consistency. Gini started more games under Klopp than any other player at the club, you can organize a team around ever present players.

The other issue which nobody seems to want to talk about is Hendo looks like he's slowed up considerably since returning from his injury over the summer. Whether that's temporary or he's just slowing down with age/mileage I don't know, but when someone turns him he's pretty much out of the game now. Thiago has the same problem, and Fabinho is taking his customary 4 weeks to play himself into match fitness. They are all good players, I just don't know how you assemble them into a midfield without being wide open on the counter, especially when Trent is pushed on.
 
We had Gini through our bad run last season. He played in the 7-2 away defeat to Villa. We get hit on the counter because we play high. As we build up VVD & Matip encroach towards our side of the centre circle. Matip esp like to stride forward.(coaches notice that) The corner came as Matip was high and VVD raced over to cover and conceeded the corner. Happened a few times and VVD threw his arms up as he hed to cover almost on his own. Trent gets high as well. Hendo has been playing higher and supporting the attack more.

It's almost total attacking. Inevitably there will be gaps for well coached teams, pacy forwards. Doesn't take a master stroke. Teams will press to get quick possession. forwards are switched on and coached to be on blob to it. Allison is great on a one on one situation but he can't stop them all.

The Boss I think knows it's risk/reward. He takes the risk. A lot of teams start very deep against us, Moyes knew he couldn't compete playing a pure football game. He was deep pulling us in on the hope they could get the drop on us. Other thing is, why didn't with all the indepth analysis we do, pick up on WH's hardcore corner tactics. Allison should've been better protected. They targeted him and it paid off, they scored one and hit the bar. VVD & Matip need to attack the ball. Phillips attacks the ball, the rest have to be more proactive. Can't trust the Ref to protect Allison
 
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There's a comment that Carra's made that some of us have been saying for a while:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo...e-carragher-liverpool-move-questions-22096965

"Yes, Matip has gone towards the ball but van Dijk holds a line. There’s only two things that can happen there: either catch them offside or they run through at goal.
"For me, that’s not a fair fight in some ways. I’m thinking I’d rather run back. What do we gain out of an offside? Nothing.
"We just get the ball 60 yards from goal or them running through at our goalkeeper.
"Liverpool do it an awful lot and the opposition will run through at the goalkeeper at least once a game."

The high line's fine when we're in great form and it's quite an experience watching us suffocate the life out of the other team. But it's no secret that the more we have of the ball, the higher the chance of our losing it. It seems to me our opponents know that when Bobby or Mane has an off day and their first touch is piss poor, every chance we turn over is a great opportunity to score against us. These opportunities are usually much clearer than the ones we conjure against packed defences.

We've also got to recognize that the high line no longer has a VVD who has bailed us out time and again- that 1v2 vs Sissoko and Son was a masterclass but not entirely unexpected at a time he was at the peak of his powers. Instead we have a VVD who has been at the heart of the defence that has had some questionable games since the 0-3 vs Watford.
 
Would the first 2 goals have happened with peak van Dijk? For the first we’d never have conceded the corner in the first place and we’d have handled the build up better for their second.

Going back the original post, I wasn’t Wijnaldum’s biggest fan. I joked about his biggest asset was being fit which has some truth to it. He was there when we were losing last season, there when we couldn’t defend when Klopp arrived and he was also there during the great spells. So he isn’t the player to pregent us shipping goals.

There is something wrong with the system and it isn’t helped by thiago and Keita being made of quavers. The constant changing is hampering any consistency and making that solid foundation. That was one thing Wijnaldum did bring. If we hadn’t been idiots in the market by buying the quaver boys we wouldn’t be bringing up Wijnaldum every other week.

I’d steer clear of Bissoma. I have no idea what’s going on with the allegations against him but for a player to even get into that situation gets the red flags waving.
 
I don't think it's Wijnaldum specifically. It's more that we're missing a certain type of player in those positions.

There's a reason Klopp liked the "Brexit midfield" so much. In order to have Salah and Mane as far up the pitch as possible, and to give the full backs freedom to get forward, the wide midfielders need to be workhorses. Unspectacular workhorses who keep position and close down space. The Italians called it a "Carrilero positon, because so many Italian sides played 4-3-1-2 formations in the 90's.

And yes, I guess Wijnaldum played one of those roles for us.

So the problem is, we've lost Wijnaldum, that type of player. Henderson, probably the archetype of the role, is a year older and not quite looking his dynamic self. Milner keeps getting injured. Thiago's a deep lying playmaker, not a "carrilero". Keita's made of glass. Jones is a number 10 type player.

So the problem is, the type of midfielders to make our system work arent there anymore.
 
I’ve posted lengthily in another thread about thoughts as to why we’re misfiring in midfield - needless to say, I think the problems are stemming mostly from the other side - although not having Gini’s consistency isn’t exactly helping.

Again though - the problem isn’t letting Gini leave - it’s not replacing him.
 
StevieM said:
I’ve posted lengthily in another thread about thoughts as to why we’re misfiring in midfield - needless to say, I think the problems are stemming mostly from the other side - although not having Gini’s consistency isn’t exactly helping.

Again though - the problem isn’t letting Gini leave - it’s not replacing him.
Click to expand...
Is it time to move TAA to MF and Neco Williams/Gomez to RB? Is Neco a better defender than Trent?
 
What fucking complete loon would change Trent's position AFTER we'd won the PL CL, finished 2nd on 99 points or whatever it was and got to a CL final WITH HIM PLAYING AT RIGHT BACK.

I mean you'd have be a pretty big fucking stupid wally so suggest something so fucking imbecilic.

Hasn't Klopp already come out before and downplayed this?
 
binomial said:
What fucking complete loon would change Trent's position AFTER we'd won the PL CL, finished 2nd on 99 points or whatever it was and got to a CL final WITH HIM PLAYING AT RIGHT BACK.

I mean you'd have be a pretty big fucking stupid wally so suggest something so fucking imbecilic.

Hasn't Klopp already come out before and downplayed this?
Click to expand...
Bluebell and Gareth Southgate it seems
 
binomial said:
What fucking complete loon would change Trent's position AFTER we'd won the PL CL, finished 2nd on 99 points or whatever it was and got to a CL final WITH HIM PLAYING AT RIGHT BACK.

I mean you'd have be a pretty big fucking stupid wally so suggest something so fucking imbecilic.

Hasn't Klopp already come out before and downplayed this?
Click to expand...
To paraphrase Klopp, “why would you move the best right back in the world into midfield?”
 
I don't know any other manager wedded to a system and formation like Klopp's been for the last 5 years. I doubt he'll change anything.
 
We also have Hendo trying to imitate Elliot and roaming very heavily up the right wing too often leaving gaps down the middle.
 
Brizzle said:
We also have Hendo trying to imitate Elliot and roaming very heavily up the right wing too often leaving gaps down the middle.
Click to expand...
He's been doing that regularly since Trent was a regular, he absolutely loves getting the ball back from Trent and whipping in his little first timers.

We should look to bring in Bissouma and partnering him next to Fab in a 4231
 
Do you know how effective Salah has been from that position? And you want to move him?

That’s more absurd than the thought of moving Trent. We need to work out how to support out most offensive weapons and get tighter at the back.
 
The opposition is overloading the right-side, and Trent s not great at defending. Moving him to MF with someone more defensive minded at RB might plug the hole.
 
momoWASboss said:
Do you know how effective Salah has been from that position? And you want to move him?

That’s more absurd than the thought of moving Trent. We need to work out how to support out most offensive weapons and get tighter at the back.
Click to expand...

We need to move back to having three 'system' CMs. Whilst I understand there are times our cutting edge looked poor against a low block, we are now leaving ourselves exposed all to often. We also aren't being helped out by reduced productive output from left back meaning we are in even greater need of an AM in the midfield to boost creativity.

Stop playing an AM, stop Hendo roaming and either get Robbo whipped into shape or start playing Tsimikas to boost threat down the left.
 
momoWASboss said:
Do you know how effective Salah has been from that position? And you want to move him?

That’s more absurd than the thought of moving Trent. We need to work out how to support out most offensive weapons and get tighter at the back.
Click to expand...

Just because he's playing up front doesnt mean he has to stay central. He'd be free to drift to the right as he pleases. Like Henry drifted out left for Arsenal.
 
Van der Beek could replace Hendo.
Bissouma for Gini.
De Jong or Tielemanns to replace Thiago.
 
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O great - its been a few months since the Trent to midfield discussion, I was beginning to fear it had been put to bed. Hey @bluebell you forgot to back up your argument by pointing out Gerrard started (*) as a right back and look at how he turned out.

(*) by "started" what we really mean is he filled in at RB about half a dozen times at most when Houllier was trying to give him match time
 
We just need a bit of consistency in midfield, a bit more solidity and while our forwards are relatively good in the air - they’re all midgets compared to opposition CB’s, so crosses need to be almost perfect.

It feels like we’re playing a 2-1-4-3 system half the time these days.

I’d be very tempted to give OrIgi an extended run through the centre - he looks more focused and “up for it” than I’ve seen him in ages.

I’m sure it’s last about 15 mins into his first league start before I’m yelling “FFS Divvy.. stop standing around like you’re waiting for a bus and looking confused as to why one hasn’t popped up to whisk you away somewhere”.
 
[article]Former Chelsea striker Tony Cascarino believes Liverpool are missing bite in midfield.

Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain and Thiago Alcantara have both regularly featured in place of Gini Wijnaldum, now of PSG, this season as have Jordan Henderson, Fabinho and Naby Keita.

But Cascarino believes neither Oxlade-Chamberlain or Thiago boast the same kind of skillset as Wijnaldum.

"The key reason why they are not as strong as they have been is that the midfield 'dogs of war' are more like dogs of straw at the moment," he told The Times.

"The three playing in there used to be so relentless and aggressive that they made it really hard for opponents to get at Liverpool. Now the centre halves are exposed.

"The big miss is Gini Wijnaldum, who left a big hole when he went to Paris Saint-Germain.

"Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain and Thiago Alcantara do not do the same job, especially against big physical opposition such as Declan Rice and Tomas Soucek in the West Ham midfield. Fabinho can do the job but he didn't look fit to me.

"It's the reason why I think Liverpool will struggle to win the league, although what we've seen in the last week — Manchester City losing to Crystal Palace, Burnley holding Chelsea, and now West Ham beating Liverpool — tells me the winning points total will be less than 90 this season, unlike some recent seasons."[/article]
 
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