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I don't think anyone is saying rafa has to take it up the arse from the players but if this story is true then there's something seriously wrong with the way first team affairs are being managed.

There has to be a means for fractured relationships to be repaired quickly and quietly in any organization, particularly the relationship between a key performer and the management.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=27188.msg679807#msg679807 date=1221919141]
The thing is Agger hasn't aired ANY frustrations over Rafa in the media.

Their's now speculation that he has been angry with some of Rafa's criticism but surely it's not the end of the world is it? These things happen all the time in the big clubs and as long it's done behind curtains no harm's done?

They way Rafa handles this, keeping Agger out the line-up and squad even, after playing him back-to-back in Pre-Season starts the media-speculation as I see it.

Bad management indeed if Agger is not deemed surplus to requirements.
[/quote]

I don't see what the problem is. Agger had a game, was shite, was dropped for skittles and skittles hasn't put a foot wrong. What do you want him to do? Rotate?

Agger will get his chance, Skittles will be suspended very soon the way he picks up yellow cards, and Agger has to try and take it.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=27188.msg679754#msg679754 date=1221915449]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=27188.msg679730#msg679730 date=1221911281]
[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=27188.msg679677#msg679677 date=1221907622]
guardian are saying he had an arguement with rafa after the leige game and that's why he's been benched. agger back chatted when rafa told him he played shit.
[/quote]

Where in the Guardian does it say that? I can't see it anywhere.

[/quote]

Come on Rafa play him for crying out loud.
[/quote]

Why? What's wrong with our defence as it is?

He can sit and wait his turn like he fucking needs to. Maybe next time he plays he won't be absolutely shit.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=27188.msg680745#msg680745 date=1222044238]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=27188.msg679754#msg679754 date=1221915449]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=27188.msg679730#msg679730 date=1221911281]
[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=27188.msg679677#msg679677 date=1221907622]
guardian are saying he had an arguement with rafa after the leige game and that's why he's been benched. agger back chatted when rafa told him he played shit.
[/quote]

Where in the Guardian does it say that? I can't see it anywhere.

[/quote]

Come on Rafa play him for crying out loud.
[/quote]

Why? What's wrong with our defence as it is?

He can sit and wait his turn like he fucking needs to. Maybe next time he plays he won't be absolutely shit.
[/quote]

There isn't much wrong with our defence as it is, but I still believe Agger has got a bit more flair and skill to add than what we've got now.

In a game like the one against Stoke I personally would've loved to se our centerbacks participate even more when going forward - like Agger does almost to perfection when up to his game. Skrtl did it now and then and he looks assured when on the ball but it's not like he is possessing a goal-threat or creating much when going forward. When we're playing against teams like Stoke with 11 man defending, we are going to attack almost in same numbers really, and Agger would've been perfect.

I don't know why you've made up your mind that Agger was the poorest performer in Liege but anyways, he wasn't good and he certainly shouldn't be picked on merit alone. That said he was voted back-to-back MOTM when playing for Denmark last week - against Hungary and Portugal - almost seemed back to his own best and as he played almost every Pre Season game too, I find it quite hard to believe that his omssion from the squad is only down to Skrtl and Carra playing well. This is what pisses me off really.

Don't get me wrong I like the look of Skrtl, he's improving by the week and Carra, for me, is still our best defender. Agger though is giving us a lot more options when going forward hence he should've played against Stoke. Obviously.
 
Torres, Keane, Babel, Gerrard, Alonso, Kuyt et all should be enough to get a goal at home against Stoke.

All expected to score before we have to rely on the messiah Agger.

I like Agger, think he's a fantastic player but we didn't score because our attacking options couldn't break down a dogged defence. It wasn't because Agger didn't play.
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=27188.msg680899#msg680899 date=1222079639]
Torres, Keane, Babel, Gerrard, Alonso, Kuyt et all should be enough to get a goal at home against Stoke.

All expected to score before we have to rely on the messiah Agger.

I like Agger, think he's a fantastic player but we didn't score because our attacking options couldn't break down a dogged defence. It wasn't because Agger didn't play.
[/quote]

I'm not saying it wasn't, we should've won anyways of course, but surely you'll agree that when you're playing against a team of 11 defenders you'll need as many players going forward as possible? I think Agger is offering us more on the attack than any other defender we've got, why he probably should've played. At least IMO.

The funny thing is, last Season Rafa rued Aggers absence as he claimed him to be a pivotal factor in our attacking-game at home soil, against stubborn oppositions like Stoke, adding up the numbers in attack. I'm merely pointing out that the weekends game would've been an ideal scenario for him to play.

Elsewhere I've actually argued that Sami should've played too as he is our most potent weapon on set-pieces. We had like a hundred corners and he could've won us the game as he has done so many times before.

Carra and Skrtl are very very good defenders, don't get me wrong, and the latter is even showing good signs when going forward, but sometimes you'll rely on your defenders to chip in once in a while as well, and besides Carra's fluke against Boro the two of them haven't shown any signs of a goal-threat yet. Hyppiä has scored + 30 (or is it 40 goals in his time at Liverpool) and Agger scored around five in his last full Season.

I think it's a valid point really, at least one of the two should've played against Stoke.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=27188.msg680911#msg680911 date=1222080945]

Agger scored around five in his last full Season.

[/quote]

Around five? Are you sure? I can remember two Daniel Agger goals for Liverpool - the screamer against West Ham and the free-kick in the CL semi against Chelsea. What other goals has he scored for us?
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=27188.msg680955#msg680955 date=1222084402]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=27188.msg680911#msg680911 date=1222080945]

Agger scored around five in his last full Season.

[/quote]

Around five? Are you sure? I can remember two Daniel Agger goals for Liverpool - the screamer against West Ham and the free-kick in the CL semi against Chelsea. What other goals has he scored for us?

[/quote]

He scored against Arsenal in that game where Crouch got a hat trick and one other in the league cup, possibly against Birmingham
 
Yeah the league cup goal was against Birmingham. A screamer from 6 yards.

If we were conceding goals, then there would be a case to put Agger back in the team. We're not, so he'll have to be patient.
 
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg680964#msg680964 date=1222084924]
Yeah the league cup goal was against Birmingham. A screamer from 6 yards.

If we were conceding goals, then there would be a case to put Agger back in the team. We're not, so he'll have to be patient.
[/quote]

the point is, teams like stoke are never going to score against us so we need more from our defenders, Agger offers more i.e the ability to score the odd goal

I wonder how many goals Terry, Carvhalo, Gallas and Vidic will score against rubbish sides, probably a few and they all help. I know Skrtel does it for Slovakia but Agger is proven to grab the odd goal which is useful
 
Our attack must be in one hell of a fucking mess if we are considering breaking up our best option at centre back for a player who gets 'the odd goal'
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=27188.msg680955#msg680955 date=1222084402]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=27188.msg680911#msg680911 date=1222080945]

Agger scored around five in his last full Season.

[/quote]

Around five? Are you sure? I can remember two Daniel Agger goals for Liverpool - the screamer against West Ham and the free-kick in the CL semi against Chelsea. What other goals has he scored for us?

[/quote]
Hmmm odd, I must've counted the one against West Ham twice. ;D

Anyways he's got two in the League, one in the League Cup and one i Champions League plus he's scored a few in friendlies as well.

The point still stands in my opinion - you'll need your defenders to chip in now and then.

*Sami was probably the most likely to have scored against Stoke mind.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=27188.msg681012#msg681012 date=1222089123]
Our attack must be in one hell of a fucking mess if we are considering breaking up our best option at centre back for a player who gets 'the odd goal'
[/quote]

Sometimes your most likely players to score won't show up and then you'll be pleased to see the odd goal from one in your back four. The likes of Carvalho, Ferdinand, Brown, Gallas, Toure, Terry etc are all chipping in now and then. Just as our own Big Finn has done so many times.

You simply can neglect the fact that Sami has scored plus 30 goals in his time at Liverpool, many at pivotal times. It's quite a sum. Agger's only scored a few but already some of high importance.

Defenders job is first and foremost to defend and Skrtl and Carra has been doing a great job doing so. Against the Stokes and Wigans of this world you'd just like to see them show more bite on our set-pieces and when going forward in general. That's my opinion nevertheless.
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=27188.msg681004#msg681004 date=1222088407]
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg680964#msg680964 date=1222084924]
Yeah the league cup goal was against Birmingham. A screamer from 6 yards.

If we were conceding goals, then there would be a case to put Agger back in the team. We're not, so he'll have to be patient.
[/quote]

the point is, teams like stoke are never going to score against us so we need more from our defenders, Agger offers more i.e the ability to score the odd goal

I wonder how many goals Terry, Carvhalo, Gallas and Vidic will score against rubbish sides, probably a few and they all help. I know Skrtel does it for Slovakia but Agger is proven to grab the odd goal which is useful



[/quote]

How were Stoke never going to score against us. A few of Delaps throws caused havoc, all it would have taken was if the ball skimmed off someones head and gone in. Thats a ridiculous statement.

We should be getting the odd goal from our £44 million pound strikeforce, or from Alonso who hasn't scored in over a year againstg teams like Stoke at home. Or god forbid Kuyt might nick one in the Premier League.
 
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg681018#msg681018 date=1222089841]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=27188.msg681004#msg681004 date=1222088407]
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg680964#msg680964 date=1222084924]
Yeah the league cup goal was against Birmingham. A screamer from 6 yards.

If we were conceding goals, then there would be a case to put Agger back in the team. We're not, so he'll have to be patient.
[/quote]

the point is, teams like stoke are never going to score against us so we need more from our defenders, Agger offers more i.e the ability to score the odd goal

I wonder how many goals Terry, Carvhalo, Gallas and Vidic will score against rubbish sides, probably a few and they all help. I know Skrtel does it for Slovakia but Agger is proven to grab the odd goal which is useful



[/quote]

How were Stoke never going to score against us. A few of Delaps throws caused havoc, all it would have taken was if the ball skimmed off someones head and gone in. Thats a ridiculous statement.

We should be getting the odd goal from our £44 million pound strikeforce, or from Alonso who hasn't scored in over a year againstg teams like Stoke at home. Or god forbid Kuyt might nick one in the Premier League.
[/quote]

It's not like Agger or Hyppia can't defend mate. I'm sure they could've coped with Stoke too.

Carra is the best defender overall and shouldn't be dropped really, but Sami would've been immense against Stokes long-ball tactics and at the same time he possesses a real threat on set-pieces.

Agger's runs upfield could've helped pave the way through their lines, adding up the numbers in attack.

Well, we probably wouldn't have won anyways, I was just hoping for a bit more bite from our defenders on the attack whilst watching. That's all.
 
Defenders are there to defend. They are doing that. If they get a few goals its an unexpected bonus. We have had some great defenders in some very successful teams down the years who have hardly scored any.

Attackers are there to attack and score goals. They are NOT doing that. If they don't then there is something wrong with the attackers, its not a reason to moan about the defence not scoring enough.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=27188.msg681029#msg681029 date=1222090584]
Defenders are there to defend. They are doing that. If they get a few goals its an unexpected bonus. We have had some great defenders in some very successful teams down the years who have hardly scored any.

Attackers are there to attack and score goals. They are NOT doing that. If they don't then there is something wrong with the attackers, its not a reason to moan about the defence not scoring enough.
[/quote]

You don't care for you defenders to possess any real goal-threat on set-pieces?

A decent ammount of goals these days are to be scored on set-pieces and if we're falling short in that department, we are going to rely even more on Torres, Gerrard and Keane ( ? ) to hit the net. All I'm saying is that most top teams around Europe have central defenders capable of chipping in now and then.

Hopefully Skrtl will soon hit the net for us as his goal-tally at Int. level is quite impressive.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=27188.msg681027#msg681027 date=1222090352]
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg681018#msg681018 date=1222089841]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=27188.msg681004#msg681004 date=1222088407]
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg680964#msg680964 date=1222084924]
Yeah the league cup goal was against Birmingham. A screamer from 6 yards.

If we were conceding goals, then there would be a case to put Agger back in the team. We're not, so he'll have to be patient.
[/quote]

the point is, teams like stoke are never going to score against us so we need more from our defenders, Agger offers more i.e the ability to score the odd goal

I wonder how many goals Terry, Carvhalo, Gallas and Vidic will score against rubbish sides, probably a few and they all help. I know Skrtel does it for Slovakia but Agger is proven to grab the odd goal which is useful



[/quote]

How were Stoke never going to score against us. A few of Delaps throws caused havoc, all it would have taken was if the ball skimmed off someones head and gone in. Thats a ridiculous statement.

We should be getting the odd goal from our £44 million pound strikeforce, or from Alonso who hasn't scored in over a year againstg teams like Stoke at home. Or god forbid Kuyt might nick one in the Premier League.
[/quote]

It's not like Agger or Hyppia can't defend mate. I'm sure they could've coped with Stoke too.

Carra is the best defender overall and shouldn't be dropped really, but Sami would've been immense against Stokes long-ball tactics and at the same time he possesses a real threat on set-pieces.

Agger's runs upfield could've helped pave the way through their lines, adding up the numbers in attack.

Well, we probably wouldn't have won anyways, I was just hoping for a bit more bite from our defenders on the attack whilst watching. That's all.

[/quote]

Hyypia is the best defender we've had at the club since I started following football, and Agger is potentially an excellent player. However the reason we didn't win om Saturday was not the centre backs, it was the rest of the team.

Dossena and Arbeloa's crossing was distribution was poor, while Alonso's shooting was pathetic. Stevie was unlucky with a few efforts, and Torres and Keane had some very presentable chances that they should have taken.

The centre backs and Reina have been our best players this season, and while there was a case for putting Sami in on Saturday, its the one part of the team that I'm happiest with at this moment in time.
 
Over the course of the season all the players in the squad will get games, especially with Rafa in charge. It's up to Agger to show what he can do when he gets his chance. The defence is strong right now so why change it?

I beleive in the long term Agger will be a top defender in this league and in Europe. I hope that he is at Liverpool for us all to enjoy it.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=27188.msg681030#msg681030 date=1222090923]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=27188.msg681029#msg681029 date=1222090584]
Defenders are there to defend. They are doing that. If they get a few goals its an unexpected bonus. We have had some great defenders in some very successful teams down the years who have hardly scored any.

Attackers are there to attack and score goals. They are NOT doing that. If they don't then there is something wrong with the attackers, its not a reason to moan about the defence not scoring enough.
[/quote]

You don't care for you defenders to possess any real goal-threat on set-pieces?

A decent ammount of goals these days are to be scored on set-pieces and if we're falling short in that department, we are going to rely even more on Torres, Gerrard and Keane ( ? ) to hit the net. All I'm saying is that most top teams around Europe have central defenders capable of chipping in now and then.

Hopefully Skrtl will soon hit the net for us as his goal-tally at Int. level is quite impressive.
[/quote]

I care more about the defenders' ability to defend.

And in any case since so far this season we have had seen as many league goals come from a centre back as we have from a striker I don't think the problem lies elsewhere
 
I love Agger but it is his own fault he is on the bench, Rafa gave him the chance against Liege and he royally fucked up, he was dire that game.

Skrtel has cemented his place for the forseeable future with solid performance after solid performance.
 
we don't need solid defensive performances against stoke, we need our CBs in the box and helping get that goal
 
We need our attacking players to score more than 3 goals between them in 5 league games.

By your reasoning Rebel, we should drop Carragher, as he's not getting enougb goals
 
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg681050#msg681050 date=1222091971]
We need our attacking players to score more than 3 goals between them in 5 league games.

By your reasoning Rebel, we should drop Carragher, as he's not getting enougb goals
[/quote]

we should drop one of them and play Agger in games against the likes of Stoke, WBA, Hull etc. there aren't many threats apart from set pieces, no world class strikers to contain.

when your attackers are off you need a defender to grab a goal, one proven player at scoring goals in a Liverpool shirt against premiership teams like Chelsea, Arsenal and West Ham is Agger

our CBs need to be pushing up and popping up in the box in games like this, making the extra number.
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=27188.msg681051#msg681051 date=1222092040]
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg681050#msg681050 date=1222091971]
We need our attacking players to score more than 3 goals between them in 5 league games.

By your reasoning Rebel, we should drop Carragher, as he's not getting enougb goals
[/quote]

we should drop one of them and play Agger in games against the likes of Stoke, WBA, Hull etc. there aren't many threats apart from set pieces, no world class strikers to contain.

when your attackers are off you need a defender to grab a goal, one proven player at scoring goals in a Liverpool shirt against premiership teams like Chelsea, Arsenal and West Ham is Agger

our CBs need to be pushing up and popping up in the box in games like this, making the extra number.


[/quote]

So you want to put a centre-half into the team who hasn't played a league in 13 months for no reason other than he 'scores goals'. Fantastic reasoning
 
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg681056#msg681056 date=1222092295]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=27188.msg681051#msg681051 date=1222092040]
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg681050#msg681050 date=1222091971]
We need our attacking players to score more than 3 goals between them in 5 league games.

By your reasoning Rebel, we should drop Carragher, as he's not getting enougb goals
[/quote]

we should drop one of them and play Agger in games against the likes of Stoke, WBA, Hull etc. there aren't many threats apart from set pieces, no world class strikers to contain.

when your attackers are off you need a defender to grab a goal, one proven player at scoring goals in a Liverpool shirt against premiership teams like Chelsea, Arsenal and West Ham is Agger

our CBs need to be pushing up and popping up in the box in games like this, making the extra number.


[/quote]

So you want to put a centre-half into the team who hasn't played a league in 13 months for no reason other than he 'scores goals'. Fantastic reasoning
[/quote]

what is wrong with that? he is fit and played for the danes, stoke are fucking shit and Agger would have been like an extra midfielder and would have helped in pressuring them. you look at all our rivals they have defenders who will grab or be involved in VITAL goals, that's why we need Agger
 
To my mind i think that centre backs are there to defend well firstly and anything else is a bonus. The notion of dropping one of Skrtel or Carra on the basis that his replacement "might" get a goal is crazy.
 
how much defending do you think we need to do against stoke when we have 75% of possession?

im sorry but you have to understand that we're not going to need last ditch goal saving efforts from Carra or Skrtel against fucking stoke, hull, WBA and numerous others

if we want to break these teams down and fight for the title its all hands to the pump, our defenders need to offer more and one of the best we have at helping attack the opposition from that position is Agger, just because Benitez isnt selecting him or because he played poorly against Liege (like he was the only fucking one) doesn't diminish his qualities
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=27188.msg681060#msg681060 date=1222092537]
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg681056#msg681056 date=1222092295]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=27188.msg681051#msg681051 date=1222092040]
[quote author=paulie187 link=topic=27188.msg681050#msg681050 date=1222091971]
We need our attacking players to score more than 3 goals between them in 5 league games.

By your reasoning Rebel, we should drop Carragher, as he's not getting enougb goals
[/quote]

we should drop one of them and play Agger in games against the likes of Stoke, WBA, Hull etc. there aren't many threats apart from set pieces, no world class strikers to contain.

when your attackers are off you need a defender to grab a goal, one proven player at scoring goals in a Liverpool shirt against premiership teams like Chelsea, Arsenal and West Ham is Agger

our CBs need to be pushing up and popping up in the box in games like this, making the extra number.


[/quote]

So you want to put a centre-half into the team who hasn't played a league in 13 months for no reason other than he 'scores goals'. Fantastic reasoning
[/quote]

what is wrong with that? he is fit and played for the danes, stoke are fucking shit and Agger would have been like an extra midfielder and would have helped in pressuring them. you look at all our rivals they have defenders who will grab or be involved in VITAL goals, that's why we need Agger

[/quote]

Your basing your whole arguement on Aggers goal against West Ham which was an absolute peach. That was a complete one off, and while we probably won't see Carra do that , I'd have him in my team over Agger every day of the week

How would Skrtel feel if he was dropped for not scoring enough goals? He's been excellent, one of our most solid players but now you want him dropped?
 
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