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Arrogance in the British game

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keniget

keniget

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I know that Rodgers has largely been well received following his first few media appearances, however when I heard that he 'refused' to work with a Director of Football I have to say it put me right off him.

What is it with management in this country?

You look at all the great great managers on the continent who have worked in this structure and yet for some reason it's viewed as an admission of weakness or whatever here.

Guardiola, Mourinho, Capello... they've all worked within such setups and yet Brendan (fucking who?) Rodgers finds it beneath him. Particularly odd given that he supposedly admires Barcelona so much.

It might just be me, but I find it really annoying.
 
Surely he has to work in the structure that suits him best. Its not about arrogance its about trusting whats served you in the past. Some managers LIKE a Dof. Neither way is right or wrong.
 
I don't think it's arrogance, it's just a different approach here on the continent.
 
Herr Onceared said:
Surely he has to work in the structure that suits him best. Its not about arrogance its about trusting whats served you in the past. Some managers LIKE a Dof. Neither way is right or wrong.
Click to expand...

All I'm saying is that it's suited surprisingly few managers in the British game whilst every other fucker seems to cope with it just fine. Given that the Britain has very few success stories to boast you'd think they'd be a bit more open.
 
I think Brendan has showed serious class throughout the process.

First, that he refused to fly off to Boston to be involved in some sort of beauty pageant. He knew that would have been disrespectful to the supporters of the club who employed him.

Secondly, he has a very clear vision of the football he wants, and the structure he believes will help him to make the club successful. He has also said that he has worked with a DOF before, but he wants to ebed himself in the club first. I think rightly, he worried about the consequences of having someone with whom he may have had no rapport placed in a crucial position, a position which implies a say over footballing vision. He has said he would like to 'take stock' of the situation. Not that it won't happen.

With the faintly lunatic notion of having Van Gaal as SD, I think he was absolutely right to insist on this proviso. Rodgers wants to make clear that it is his vision of the playing style that is going to be implemented- which makes sense given he's managing the team!

I think there definitely will be an SD of some description before very long, and that Rodgers will be part of the selection panel.
 
I wouldnt say we dont have success Ken.
United, Liverpool and Chelsea have all won the champions league in the last 10 years with further finals for Liverpool, Chelsea, United and Arsenal. Fulham went to the final of the Uefa cup too.
Thats 8 European finals in a decade for our clubs with only Chelsea this year (arguably) not having the manager in full control.
Add that to Barcelona who havnt had a DOF per-se and have won it three times of late.
I dont think its as simple as you suggest.
Brendan Rodgers will see his seasons as a success BECAUSE of the way he works. I think its fair that he said he wants to do it his way. If you believe in your methods you have to trust them surely.
Its a brave man who would say sure i'll take the job and have it dictated to me how i should work daily.
 
I think in Britain, the clarity of the DoF's roles vs manager/head coach's one is not clear enough. Then there's the English media.

For example, I didn't know West Brom works with a DoF system until after reading about their DoF when he got linked with roles abroad. In Italy and Germany, the DoFs speak a lot with regard to management and signing issues and its pretty evident it was them who made certain decisions, including signings, whereas in England, we always hear about how signings were discussed and agreed upon by both the manager and DoF before eventually one spills the bean when he hits out after getting sacked.
 
Herr Onceared said:
I wouldnt say we dont have success Ken.
United, Liverpool and Chelsea have all won the champions league in the last 10 years with further finals for Liverpool, Chelsea, United and Arsenal. Fulham went to the final of the Uefa cup too.
Thats 8 European finals in a decade for our clubs with only Chelsea this year (arguably) not having the manager in full control.
Add that to Barcelona who havnt had a DOF per-se and have won it three times of late.
I dont think its as simple as you suggest.
Brendan Rodgers will see his seasons as a success BECAUSE of the way he works. I think its fair that he said he wants to do it his way. If you believe in your methods you have to trust them surely.
Its a brave man who would say sure i'll take the job and have it dictated to me how i should work daily.
Click to expand...

There isn't an 'arguably' in respect of Chelsea, is there?
 
keniget said:
All I'm saying is that it's suited surprisingly few managers in the British game whilst every other fucker seems to cope with it just fine. Given that the Britain has very few success stories to boast you'd think they'd be a bit more open.
Click to expand...

Very few success stories ? England have the best record in Europe bar none at the moment (going by UEFA rankings) and have been top of that tree many times over the last few decades, up until this Barca team came along. Liverpool, Forest, Villa, Chelsea, United (and that's only the EC/CL) and although they haven't won it, Arsenal have a good record too. Most countries struggle to provide two teams in that top echelon.

I agree with you that I'd like to see more clubs adopt that structure but you can hardly say our own doesn't work.
 
Frogfish said:
Very few success stories ? England have the best record in Europe bar none at the moment (going by UEFA rankings) and have been top of that tree many times over the last few decades, up until this Barca team came along. Liverpool, Forest, Villa, Chelsea, United (and that's only the EC/CL) and although they haven't won it, Arsenal have a good record too. Most countries struggle to provide two teams in that top echelon.

I agree with you that I'd like to see more clubs adopt that structure but you can hardly say our own doesn't work.
Click to expand...

Yep, it sounds like a load of 'grass is greener'.

As I said in one of the other threads, the structure is neither here nor there, having the right personnel is what matters. Shall we start talking about United?
 
Sigh.

Managers. Very few success stories in terms of managers.

Ferguson is one.

Wenger perhaps you could make an argument for as he really found himself in England.

Who else in the last twenty years?
 
He was just interviewed by Ray Houghton on Talk Shite. He said that he wants to work within a team that is responsible for all aspects of the football, including fitness people etc and someone responsible for purchasing. The main aspect is that he does not want anyone between him and the owners/directors , so he can always approach them.......which in my mind, at least, puts a different spin on it, and I can see that.

regards
 
keniget said:
Sigh.

Managers. Very few success stories in terms of managers.

Ferguson is one.

Wenger perhaps you could make an argument for as he really found himself in England.

Who else in the last twenty years?
Click to expand...

In terms of what though? Europe? The League?

Success is a widespread thing. You have dominating managers who are in the game for years and you have managers who have a few years of success.

You could easily throw Houllier, Gullit, Benitez, Hoddle, Wenger etc into the mix. They've all had relative success at the very top end of the game in this country. Most without a DOF.
 
keniget said:
Sigh.
Managers. Very few success stories in terms of managers.
Ferguson is one.
Wenger perhaps you could make an argument for as he really found himself in England.
Who else in the last twenty years?
Click to expand...

It depends on your definition of success. Do they have to have dominated home and abroad ? Very few can do that from any nation. Otherwise Liverpool can provide a few to start with, Paisley, Evans, Dalglish, Rafa. Add Ferguson, Wenger and Mourinho (and now Di Matio) and manager-wise we begin to look good too. Success can't be judged by longevity just by silver.
 
I think you're looking at it all wrong tbh. He says that he wants full controll of all footballing matters. He can work with a Sporting Director or whatnot, but he calls the shots. If thats what he needs to be successful then fine. Having someone else deciding which players youbcan buy isnt for everyone.

I like the idea of the set up they have in mind tbh.
 
There's no doubt that in this country managers try to do to much. Their health suffers and so, at times, does their judgement. So it makes sense to evolve towards a set-up that spreads the responsibility, and pressure, wider. And Rodgers hasn't managed at a really big club before and will probably come to appreciate more support after he's been at the club for a while. I don't quite understand his 'direct line' point - a manager can have that no matter what the structure is and who else is around - but if FSG want a top four finish Rodgers is quite right to start off on his own terms. If he's got that pressure on him he needs to feel comfortable with the set-up.
 
Keni's right to raise the general point in my opinion and as much as I liked Rodger's firmness in asserting his view on the matter, it does perhaps suggest an inflexibility about other ways of running a club.

But Doc Mac's spot on in my book.
 
I can't see too many managers in Rodgers position being brave enough to turn down this job if it wasn't on his exact terms, i quite liked that.

Over the coming weeks it'll be interesting to see who we bring in to support him and how the structure is actually set up.
 
Buddha said:
Keni's right to raise the general point in my opinion and as much as I liked Rodger's firmness in asserting his view on the matter, it does perhaps suggest an inflexibility about other ways of running a club.

But Doc Mac's spot on in my book.
Click to expand...
I dont get it!
Why would he be flexible?
We want him to manage our club based upon his success managing a club HIS way.
Why in fuck would he take the job if the caveat was 'You change your way of managing to suit us!'

I dont undertand this at all.
He said 'its my way or I stay where I am' and I dont think thats in any way arrogant.

In my field im quite successful and if an MD of a failing company came to me and said we want you to turn us round but you do it our way, id tell them to walk.
Why compromise your way of working and that which has served you well at the behest of someone who WANTS YOU.
Hes absolutely right to say hes not doing it any way but his way. If he had come in and said i'll do whatever you want id think a lot less of him.
 
Oncy, I was just conceding that Keni was right to at least raise the issue as another way of viewing Rodger's statements.

Before agreeing entirely with Doc Mac, whose point is very similar to yours.

I just did it in a ham-fisted and confusing way.
 
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