Poll Hendo poll

[rurikbird]

I noticed that Jordan Henderson is becoming a whipping boy for more and more LFC fans recently. When he plays, people usually choose to blame him for goals we don't score and for chances we concede. When he doesn't play, somebody always says the midfield looked much better without him (even if the midfield actually played poorly in that game). The abuse on Twitter and social media is getting out of hand – topics that have nothing whatsoever to do with him routinely get turned into Hendo hate-fests. I'm surprised Brendan didn't get on his case yet – because for once, he would have enjoyed a lot of popular support for his anti-player crusade if only he made a timely pivot to abusing Hendo from his increasingly indefensible position on Firmino.

Just out of curiosity I want to understand how widespread this sentiment is here on SCM. Please vote in the poll and elaborate on your answer here. Thank you.

 

[Modo]

 

[Fabio]

He's massively fell out of favour for me over the last 12 months. Very little seems to come from him attacking, or defensively, whereas he used to love a tackle and quickly setting up attacks

It's clearly mental fragility and he's neither use nor ornament at the moment

For me he deserves to be dropped, get his shit together, and prove himself. The fact klopp left him out the most important game of the season speaks volumes about it all

 

[mark1975]

Nice attempt at sparking some decent debate over the topic Rurik, shame that your point about hate and daft opinions was lost on the idiot above, with another typical unfunny, pointless post.

 

[mark1975]

He's massively fell out of favour for me over the last 12 months. Very little seems to come from him attacking, or defensively, whereas he used to love a tackle and quickly setting up attacks

It's clearly mental fragility and he's neither use nor ornament at the moment

For me he deserves to be dropped, get his shit together, and prove himself. The fact klopp left him out the most important game of the season speaks volumes about it all

Yeah, the problem is the alternatives are equally untrustworthy. Gini and Can both turn up when they feel like it, and it's not often enough really. Coutinho is the only one of the four who should be guaranteed starter, I wouldn't lose any sleep over the other three. They're all steady-Eddie standard, which is ok if you have a bit of class alongside them. Kieta and a DM would see them dropped.

 

[rurikbird]

I'd love some stats from @King Binny to inject a dose of reality into this.

 

[Markeh]

I think it has clearly been drilled into him that he's the water carrier for the team and a good game for him consists of not giving the ball away ever, simple passes and stopping danger without diving in.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think he is playing a role in lieu of someone better being found even though it's not his game at all.

 

[HC]

How is he a 'whipping boy'? That suggests hes getting unfair treatment?

I can count his good performances on one hand over the past 12 months. He doesnt get in the starting eleven for me. Dont bother showing me some pass co pleted or km ran stats - running aimlessly/chasing shadows for 15k and 50 10yd sideways passes does not maketh a good midfielder.

Hes not any worse than an awol Gini or one of those Can performances but on a good day their rezpective ceilings are infinitely higher than Hendersons. His lows, however, are equally unpropitious, THAT Seville performance, Lordy.

He's probably pressing harder than the rest, maybe with the exception of Gini and probably sits better than the others but thats hardly a task. A Hollywood pass or great whipped ball once in 10 isnt enough

Can on a free gets Juve, Gini probably gets similar, nationality aside, Hendo doesnt get near a half decent Champions League side. No Premier league side will win much whilst reliant upon bang average CMs [See Arsenal since invincibles]

 

[Modo]

How is he a 'whipping boy'? That suggests hes getting unfair treatment?

I can count his good performances on one hand over the past 12 months. He doesnt get in the starting eleven for me. Dont bother showing me some pass co pleted or km ran stats - running aimlessly/chasing shadows for 15k and 50 10yd sideways passes does not maketh a good midfielder.

Hes not any worse than an awol Gini or one of those Can performances but on a good day their rezpective ceilings are infinitely higher than Hendersons. His lows, however, are equally unpropitious, THAT Seville performance, Lordy.

He's probably pressing harder than the rest, maybe with the exception of Gini and probably sits better than the others but thats hardly a task. A Hollywood pass or great whipped ball once in 10 isnt enough

Can on a free gets Juve, Gini probably gets similar, nationality aside, Hendo doesnt get near a half decent Champions League side. No Premier league side will win much whilst reliant upon bang average CMs [See Arsenal since invincibles]

EXACTA-FUCKING-MUNDO!

 

[Rosco]

Definition of unpropitious
:
not likely to have or produce a good result : not favorable or advantageous : not propitious

• an unpropitious time

 

[HC]

N.B I dont think any combination of Can/Gini/Hendo/Milner is good enough for us to do much, imbalance across the board.

 

[HC]

Definition of unpropitious
:
not likely to have or produce a good result : not favorable or advantageous : not propitious

• an unpropitious time

You quiffing me bro?

 

[rurikbird]

Hes not any worse than an awol Gini or one of those Can performances but on a good day their rezpective ceilings are infinitely higher than Hendersons. His lows, however, are equally unpropitious, THAT Seville performance, Lordy.

He's probably pressing harder than the rest, maybe with the exception of Gini and probably sits better than the others but thats hardly a task. A Hollywood pass or great whipped ball once in 10 isnt enough

Can on a free gets Juve, Gini probably gets similar, nationality aside, Hendo doesnt get near a half decent Champions League side. No Premier league side will win much whilst reliant upon bang average CMs [See Arsenal since invincibles]

That's a strong argument, in fairness – you're saying that while he's probably our most consistent midfielder and one that "presses harder than the rest" and "sits better than the others," he doesn't have that "wow" factor of someone like Can in his better moments. I actually agree with that. (You are also probably right about him not being valued as much on the market as Can or Gini, although that doesn't matter as much to me – markets have their own ingrained biases.)

Still, don't you think that this team already has plenty of talent elsewhere and what we badly need, especially from midfield, is consistency and pressing and at least some attempt at defending? It's true that Hendo doesn't fly into tackles quite as much this season as before – but could it be because he doesn't have total confidence in his midfield colleagues being in the right place to cover if the tackle doesn't work out? I agree with @Markeh that he seems to have accepted the role of a water-carrier this season, not because it suits his game, but because everybody else is even less reliable/defensively sound than he is. So why rip into him for plugging the holes and sacrificing his game somewhat to give our "wow" players a platform to shine? I don't want to sell him, I want to buy another Hendo to free this one from the shackles of being this team's only defensive anchor.

 

[Markeh]

The Sevilla game keeps getting mentioned but we basically started the second half with 7 men. Coutinho and the front 3 didn't do a thing, I find it hard to believe other managers wouldn't have their forwards drop back to help when it's going really badly and our midfield is completely outnumbered. They got better, we continued trying to play like 90's Newcastle.

That's a systemic failure rather than a couple of individuals having a bad game.

 

[KFC]

I noticed that Jordan Henderson is becoming a whipping boy for more and more LFC fans recently. When he plays, people usually choose to blame him for goals we don't score and for chances we concede. When he doesn't play, somebody always says the midfield looked much better without him (even if the midfield actually played poorly in that game). The abuse on Twitter and social media is getting out of hand – topics that have nothing whatsoever to do with him routinely get turned into Hendo hate-fests. I'm surprised Brendan didn't get on his case yet – because for once, he would have enjoyed a lot of popular support for his anti-player crusade if only he made a timely pivot to abusing Hendo from his increasingly indefensible position on Firmino.

Just out of curiosity I want to understand how widespread this sentiment is here on SCM. Please vote in the poll and elaborate on your answer here. Thank you.

He is not shit but a £40m offer I came in I would sell him.

 

[Judge Jules]

That's a strong argument, in fairness – you're saying that while he's probably our most consistent midfielder and one that "presses harder than the rest" and "sits better than the others," he doesn't have that "wow" factor of someone like Can in his better moments. I actually agree with that.

Still, don't you think that this team already has plenty of talent elsewhere and what we badly need, especially from midfield, is consistency and pressing and at least some attempt at defending? It's true that Hendo doesn't fly into tackles quite as much this season as before – but could it be because he doesn't have total confidence in his midfield colleagues being in the right place to cover if the tackle doesn't work out? I agree with @Markeh that he seems to have accepted the role of a water-carrier this season, not because it suits his game, but because everybody else is even less reliable/defensively sound than he is – so there is no one else to do that job. So why rip into him for plugging the holes and sacrificing his game somewhat to give our "wow" players a platform to shine? I don't want to sell him, I want to buy another Hendo to free this one from the shackles of being this team's only defensive anchor.

To coin a phrase, exacta-f*cking-mundo.

 

[Modo]

The Sevilla game keeps getting mentioned but we basically started the second half with 7 men. Coutinho and the front 3 didn't do a thing, I find it hard to believe other managers wouldn't have their forwards drop back to help when it's going really badly and our midfield is completely outnumbered. They got better, we continued trying to play like 90's Newcastle.

That's a systemic failure rather than a couple of individuals having a bad game.

I don't blame Henderson for losing the game against Sevilla. Of course it was a collective failure. However, 0 tackles? As DM?
I mean come on...

 

[Modo]

He is not shit but a £40m offer I came in I would sell him.

I'd sell him for no less than £15 mill.

 

[HC]

Water carrier? Thats very kind. He looks lost in Klopps set up, maybe its not all his fault but he offers the least on the ball and doesnt offer enough defensively over any other alternative to make weight for that

RE Pressing - no, quite the opposite, rather than another labrador, we need a smart cm who can read the danger and intercept deeper - all too frequently a ball from wide or a simple forward pass wipes out out our midfield. Hendo is deep to play that 5 yard ball to Moreno when were in posessio but as play develops he seems to by bypassed far too frequently - maybe a system issue with the hifh press as much as it is a personnel problem

Seville gets mentioned as he shit the bed. Didnt lead, infact didnt do anything . He wasnt alone and wasnt the cause of what felt like a defeat but he was incredibly poor.

@rurikbird , thats all well and good aslong as people agree tha in whatever parallel unoverse, he is an 'anchor' (Hes not) and is ' providing a platform for others' (He's not)

This doesnt excuse Klopp, Gini, Can or Milner. He isn't the only issue with this midfield, hes just unfortunately seldom the solution either.

 

[rurikbird]

The Sevilla game keeps getting mentioned but we basically started the second half with 7 men. Coutinho and the front 3 didn't do a thing, I find it hard to believe other managers wouldn't have their forwards drop back to help when it's going really badly and our midfield is completely outnumbered. They got better, we continued trying to play like 90's Newcastle.

That's a systemic failure rather than a couple of individuals having a bad game.

Anybody who still didn't process that Sevilla 2nd half can play with the stats here. Just select the minutes from 45 to 90 on the slider at the bottom and toggle through different players and stats, particularly passing %. My conclusion is that Coutinho completely disappeared, Moreno's head was gone, Henderson's lack of calmness and ingrained quality as a passer and playmaker was exposed under great pressure from Seville, and Firmino should have been more focused. On the positive side, Wijnaldum did well to keep possession, Salah and Mane both dropped deep and did their best to help, Klavan kept his head and Gomez was just awesome.

 

[Judge Jules]

Water carrier? Thats very kind. He looks lost in Klopps set up, maybe its not all his fault but he offers the least on the ball and doesnt offer enough defensively over any other alternative to make weight for that

RE Pressing - no, quite the opposite, rather than another labrador, we need a smart cm who can read the danger and intercept deeper - all too frequently a ball from wide or a simple forward pass wipes out out our midfield. Hendo is deep to play that 5 yard ball to Moreno when were in posessio but as play develops he seems to by bypassed far too frequently - maybe a system issue with the hifh press as much as it is a personnel problem

Seville gets mentioned as he shit the bed. Didnt lead, infact didnt do anything . He wasnt alone and wasnt the cause of what felt like a defeat but he was incredibly poor.

@rurikbird , thats all well and good aslong as people agree tha in whatever parallel unoverse, he is an 'anchor' (Hes not) and is ' providing a platform for others' (He's not)

This doesnt excuse Klopp, Gini, Can or Milner. He isn't the only issue with this midfield, hes just unfortunately seldom the solution either.

None of the others are either, so why zero in on him? The issue isn't whether he's a galactico, because nobody's saying he is. The issue is whether he deserves to be singled out for criticism, and in that respect you say yourself that "maybe it's not all his fault", "maybe a system issue" and "he wasn't alone", so making him the chief target doesn't add up. He's "taking one for the team" by playing further back than his natural game would have him do, because we don't - yet - have anyone for that role (I agree BTW that that's been a mistake on Klopp's part, but signing Keita - and hopefully Goretzka, who knows? - should address that).

 

[HC]

Dont cherry pick JJ.

He's not alone as Ive said but unlike the others he has offered very little in redeeming performances, hes also the captain.

He isnt taking one for the team, he is frequently playing to the detriment of the team, that maybe on Klopp but it doesnt give Henderson a pass.That is why he's being spoken of.

I'd also note my criticism of henderson started well before this deeper role became his position, I dont think he's ever been good enough, period. Is innabilities are equally evident on the ball as they are off it.

By all means start a thread next time Gini or Can go missing, they were V.poor defensively against Spartak IMO

 

[hmmmmm1]

Being club captain is the worse thing for hendo, adds too much pressure.

 

[Woland]

I like it when he gets in the final third and delicately chips it into the keepers arms or floats a lovely pass into row F

 

[Judge Jules]

Dont cherry pick JJ.

He's not alone as Ive said but unlike the others he has offered very little in redeeming performances, hes also the captain.

He isnt taking one for the team, he is frequently playing to the detriment of the team, that maybe on Klopp but it doesnt give Henderson a pass.That is why he's being spoken of.

I'd also note my criticism of henderson started well before this deeper role became his position, I dont think he's ever been good enough, period. Is innabilities are equally evident on the ball as they are off it.

By all means start a thread next time Gini or Can go missing, they were V.poor defensively against Spartak IMO

I'm sending the charge of cherry-picking right back at you, matey. You've said precious little so far about "redeeming performances" from others, which isn't surprising because there haven't been many. The key to this is the fact that your criticism of Henderson did indeed start a long time ago, and what this is from you (as notably from Modo) is a serious case of "give a dog a bad name and hang him" - regardless of what actually happens out there, he's the chosen scapegoat for one or two on here. I'm just disappointed you've turned out to be one of them.

 

[rurikbird]

RE Pressing - no, quite the opposite, rather than another labrador, we need a smart cm who can read the danger and intercept deeper - all too frequently a ball from wide or a simple forward pass wipes out out our midfield.

I agree with this part and I'd love for us to find a proper "anchor," someone with that deeply ingrained passing quality that doesn't disappear under pressure and the intelligence to read and intercept danger. In other words someone like Hamann or Alonso, rather than a kind of DM who runs around everywhere and throws himself into tackles.

 

[HC]

I'm sending the charge of cherry-picking right back at you, matey. You've said precious little so far about "redeeming performances" from others, which isn't surprising because there haven't been many. The key to this is the fact that your criticism of Henderson did indeed start a long time ago, and what this is from you (as notably from Modo) is a serious case of "give a dog a bad name and hang him" - regardless of what actually happens out there, he's the chosen scapegoat for one or two on here. I'm just disappointed you've turned out to be one of them.

Why is the onus on me to prove anything when his deficiencies are evident to all except you? You have not countered any of the points, rather just said well X&Y are no better either.

 

[Woland]

I think that his status to quality ratio is the lowest ever at LFC

Where ratio equals quality over status, in Henderson's case of total shit / captain, it breaks the calculator.

No one's that arsed about Can coz he's off soon, or Wini coz he only just got here.

 

[Judge Jules]

Why is the onus on me to prove anything when his deficiencies are evident to all except you? You have not countered any of the points, rather just said well X&Y are no better either.

The onus is on you because you're the one trying to claim Henderson is worse than the others. For the umpteenth time, nobody's trying to make out he doesn't have "deficiencies". What's at issue is the idea that his are greater than those of others around him. The "evident to all except you" bit is nonsense BTW and this very thread demonstrates that.

 

[HC]

The onus is on you because you're the one trying to claim Henderson is worse than the others. For the umpteenth time, nobody's trying to make out he doesn't have "deficiencies". What's at issue is the idea that his are greater than those of others around him. The "evident to all except you" bit is nonsense BTW and this very thread demonstrates that.

Cant be arsed embeddingor further fact findingbut his squawka score is significantly lower for total contribution than Gini over 13 appearances they have both made in the league this season.

Lower pass accuracy,shot accuracy, passes are shorter in distance and wins fewer duels acc to them.