Joey Barton

[Modo]

I now feel very uncomfortable having made the comments I did after Barton's first post (that were posted on here). I thought he was genuinely, and fairly, questioning the sudden influx of Women's Premier League pundits to the men's game, even though he's a fucking nut.

This season has seen a surge in women both as presenters and as pundits. I'm very comfortable with the former because they are as likely to be good as the men. Alex Scott seems nailed on to replace Lineker as anchor, no problem with that.

My, minor, beef is around the person paired with the commentator on live games. I don't remember when Sky introduced "Co-Commentators" into the live broadcast but it seems half my life ago! They have, up until a few years ago, been exclusively players that have hit the heights of the EPL, won multiple honours and really know the way the game is played and what can be expected in any segment of play but also in the mind of the manger, the captain etc. So in the last 30 years the co-commentators have come from players who can boast multiple seasons as a SENIOR player in a EPL team. This role and hence job, has only been available to those with a top 'CV' from a big club with multiple years and the ability to talk on tv; Shearer, Keane, Wright, Ferdinand, McMannaman, Murphy, Hansen, Keown, Carra, Ratboy & Crouch and in recent times Richards, "jj" and Hargreaves.

So the inclusion of women pundits (not commentators) seems a jar. The women's PL is progressing rapidly but it's hard to imagine a single person who thinks that there's a women's pro who has experienced the game in the same way as a multi-season male EPL pro. That seemed to be the requirement. We don't have anyone from the EPL Barnsley team co-commentating, nor from the Leicester team that briefly hit the heights even. So either it is possible for any professional footballer to have a valid opinion, male or female or we want pundits (NOT COMMENTATORS ) to have the experience of the speed, pressures and challenges of the EPL or not.

I'm too old to be arsed and I hate Joey started his kamikaze media hate spiel in this area. but I do think that if in my profession a whole new cadre of peeps get fast tracked to top jobs without the creds that were previously required I'd be pissed. I lay this open to the suggestion those creds were'nt required but still.

... and I repeat co-commentator not commentator

You bring up a good point that I never considered. Why female pundits are more qualified than a male League one player.
Honestly, if I saw a league one player being the expert on TV, I'd actually wonder what he's doing there.

 

[StevieM]

You bring up a good point that I never considered. Why female pundits are more qualified than a male League one player.
Honestly, if I saw a league one player being the expert on TV, I'd actually wonder what he's doing there.

Maybe they’re just better at forming words and coherent sentences and allowing them to flow out their mouths.

We readily accept that you don’t have to have played the game to a high standard (or at all if you consider the likes of Houllier & Mourinho) to be a top quality manager capable of understanding the game, etc - so why is is it hard to accept that a woman, even though she’s not played at the top level of male football might not have a thorough grasp of the game and be able to deliver expert punditry?

 

[dee]

I made a stew recently and the recipe called for celery. I didn't have any, so I put in courgette instead (just because I had it). I didn't recreate the exact same stew, but I created something slightly different that was just as good.

Jut because co commentators have always been ex PL pros doesn't mean they always have to be. It was a change that introduced co commentators, you are living through another change - embrace & enjoy

As I was at pains to stress, my point is that it has been Celery with no opportunity for courgette. The courgettes were gagging for the opportunity but not being celery they didn’t make the cut. Now the aubergines have come along and are straight into the stew but the courgettes still dont get a chance

 

[Modo]

Maybe they’re just better at forming words and coherent sentences and allowing them to flow out their mouths.

We readily accept that you don’t have to have played the game to a high standard (or at all if you consider the likes of Houllier & Mourinho) to be a top quality manager capable of understanding the game, etc - so why is is it hard to accept that a woman, even though she’s not played at the top level of male football might not have a thorough grasp of the game and be able to deliver expert punditry?

That's not a good comparison imo, Mourinho and Houllier worked their way up just like Brendan Rodgers and Benitez and they had to prove themselves.
Also, are all League one players incoherent? Like it's a league of dyslectics lol.
Sorry, but in all seriousness, have the female pundits worked their way up? Or were they just drafted into the role?

 

[jexykrodic]

Radical I know but just listen to the person and make up your own mind based on their insight. There is always a mute button or an off switch.

As for Barton, the usual screaming suspects have ensured his drivel and thus his media profile is raised. I bet he can't believe his luck.

 

[dee]

Maybe they’re just better at forming words and coherent sentences and allowing them to flow out their mouths.

We readily accept that you don’t have to have played the game to a high standard (or at all if you consider the likes of Houllier & Mourinho) to be a top quality manager capable of understanding the game, etc - so why is is it hard to accept that a woman, even though she’s not played at the top level of male football might not have a thorough grasp of the game and be able to deliver expert punditry?

Male, female, trans, non binary whatever. If the gates are being opened beyond those players with huge experience of exactly what it takes to succeed at this level then why no female from the Woman’s championship, why not someone with two years at Notts county?

Its obviously the way it is now, I just think I value Shearers opinion on what and how a striker is going about their business more than some random from Notts County etc

 

[dee]

Radical I know but just listen to the person and make up your own mind based on their insight. There is always a mute button or an off switch.

As for Barton, the usual screaming suspects have ensured his drivel and thus his media profile is raised. I bet he can't believe his luck.

TBH I switch of BT sport straight after every match. Absolute drivel most of the time so yepp!

 

[The Nomad]

Male, female, trans, non binary whatever. If the gates are being opened beyond those players with huge experience of exactly what it takes to succeed at this level then why no female from the Woman’s championship, why not someone with two years at Notts county?

Its obviously the way it is now, I just think I value Shearers opinion on what and how a striker is going about their business more than some random from Notts County etc

Which you shouldn't really if you are following your own logic. Yes he played the game. But was he a successful coach/manager? If not.. does he really understand what midfielders and defenders should be doing? A pundit doesn't just stick to what the striker was doing.

It opens up a whole new can of worms. Just because he played PL doesn't mean he tactically knows more than Joe Bloggs from Notts County. He was just a better finisher.

For the record.. I don't mind who's the pundit. And some of the female co-comms are better than Keegan or Owen for example. It should be about equal opportunities though. Not a box ticking exercise.

 

[Athens]

Do you remember when Joey was used as an insult? Perhaps it's time to bring that back.

 

[StevieM]

That's not a good comparison imo, Mourinho and Houllier worked their way up just like Brendan Rodgers and Benitez and they had to prove themselves.
Also, are all League one players incoherent? Like it's a league of dyslectics lol.
Sorry, but in all seriousness, have the female pundits worked their way up? Or were they just drafted into the role?

I don’t know mate - how does a woman work her way up - there would seem to be significant barriers.

Joey Barton has 1 England Cap, played a handful of UEFA Cup & Europa League games and the only medal he won was for winning the Championship with Newcastle when he played in less than half the league games. He’s since gone on to fail as a manager.

Eni Aluko, who he’s set his sights on, has over 100 caps for England including a Euro Final, played for Chelsea & Juventus, winning multiple trophies and since gone on to work in several Directorship roles here and in the US. She also has a first class law degree.

Sure - woman’s football isn’t the same standard as men’s - but what would she have to do to convince that she’s worth being given an opportunity.

For a fuckwit like Barton - she’s female, smart, successful and black - I bet he’s outraged she has an MBE as well.

She’s probably done everything and can and worked as hard as anyone to be given a chance at being a pundit on the game she’s devoted a large portion of her life to.

Fair play to her I say.

 

[dee]

Which you shouldn't really if you are following your own logic. Yes he played the game. But was he a successful coach/manager? If not.. does he really understand what midfielders and defenders should be doing? A pundit doesn't just stick to what the striker was doing.

It opens up a whole new can of worms. Just because he played PL doesn't mean he tactically knows more than Joe Bloggs from Notts County. He was just a better finisher.

For the record.. I don't mind who's the pundit. And some of the female co-comms are better than Keegan or Owen for example. It should be about equal opportunities though. Not a box ticking exercise.

The last sentence sums it up for me.

 

[Modo]

I don’t know mate - how does a woman work her way up - there would seem to be significant barriers.

Joey Barton has 1 England Cap, played a handful of UEFA Cup & Europa League games and the only medal he won was for winning the Championship with Newcastle when he played in less than half the league games. He’s since gone on to fail as a manager.

Eni Aluko, who he’s set his sights on, has over 100 caps for England including a Euro Final, played for Chelsea & Juventus, winning multiple trophies and since gone on to work in several Directorship roles here and in the US. She also has a first class law degree.

Sure - woman’s football isn’t the same standard as men’s - but what would she have to do to convince that she’s worth being given an opportunity.

For a fuckwit like Barton - she’s female, smart, successful and black - I bet he’s outraged she has an MBE as well.

She’s probably done everything and can and worked as hard as anyone to be given a chance at being a pundit on the game she’s devoted a large portion of her life to.

Fair play to her I say.

You also make a good point. I guess the only way she could prove herself as a pundit would be to show how good she is doing the womens games.

 

[dee]

I don’t know mate - how does a woman work her way up - there would seem to be significant barriers.

Joey Barton has 1 England Cap, played a handful of UEFA Cup & Europa League games and the only medal he won was for winning the Championship with Newcastle when he played in less than half the league games. He’s since gone on to fail as a manager.

Eni Aluko, who he’s set his sights on, has over 100 caps for England including a Euro Final, played for Chelsea & Juventus, winning multiple trophies and since gone on to work in several Directorship roles here and in the US. She also has a first class law degree.

Sure - woman’s football isn’t the same standard as men’s - but what would she have to do to convince that she’s worth being given an opportunity.

For a fuckwit like Barton - she’s female, smart, successful and black - I bet he’s outraged she has an MBE as well.

She’s probably done everything and can and worked as hard as anyone to be given a chance at being a pundit on the game she’s devoted a large portion of her life to.

Fair play to her I say.

Please don’t for one millisecond think I’m arguing for Barton to be in a commentary job instead of any of the recent avalanche of women ex football players. I’m just stating it seems a little unfair on the current Stephen Warnocks of the game that now find themselves a long way down the pecking order if they want a media career.

 

[StevieM]

Male, female, trans, non binary whatever. If the gates are being opened beyond those players with huge experience of exactly what it takes to succeed at this level then why no female from the Woman’s championship, why not someone with two years at Notts county?

Its obviously the way it is now, I just think I value Shearers opinion on what and how a striker is going about their business more than some random from Notts County etc

What I’m trying to say is that the ability to kick a spherical object very effectively is not necessarily the same as being able to talk about kicking a spherical object very effectively and being good at one doesn’t necessarily mean you’re good at the other.

Take Owen, Shearer and the current crop of pundits - they’re not really sparkling in their insights and in-depth analysis - great players, but Owen’s painful to watch at times (I rarely see Shearer).

The pundits we tend to get in Australia are Mark Bosnich (who comes across as still being mostly high) and Craig Foster who’s actually ok despite having barely managed a few seasons in the Premier League 25 years ago - but he’s been doing punditry for 20 years now.

 

[StevieM]

I mean picture this - it’s we’re 0-0 at half time in an important game and the presenter asks Michael Owen how Liverpool are going to win the game.

I fully expect Michael Owen to say :

“Basically Liverpool are going to need to score if they want to win the game - they need to create more chances, get the ball into danger areas and then the strikers really have to finish their chances “.

That’ll be about the level of in-depth analysis I’d expect to hear.

 

[dee]

I think the best at the moment in the studio are Danny Murphy, Studge and Shay Given. On commentary Sniffer Smith, McCoist and Ratboy (on non-manc/Liverpool games)

 

[dee]

I mean picture this - it’s we’re 0-0 at half time in an important game and the presenter asks Michael Owen how Liverpool are going to win the game.

I fully expect Michael Owen to say :

“Basically Liverpool are going to need to score if they want to win the game - they need to create more chances, get the ball into danger areas and then the strikers really have to finish their chances “.

That’ll be about the level of in-depth analysis I’d expect to hear.

Yepp, all in the same super dull voice! Stevie McManaman is another waste of space. He spends half the game rephrasing what the commentator just said in the same way we learnt German at school. “Tha was a great pass wasn’t it Steve?”. “oh yeah, for sure, that was a great pass”

 

[peterhague]

I now feel very uncomfortable having made the comments I did after Barton's first post (that were posted on here). I thought he was genuinely, and fairly, questioning the sudden influx of Women's Premier League pundits to the men's game, even though he's a fucking nut.

This season has seen a surge in women both as presenters and as pundits. I'm very comfortable with the former because they are as likely to be good as the men. Alex Scott seems nailed on to replace Lineker as anchor, no problem with that.

My, minor, beef is around the person paired with the commentator on live games. I don't remember when Sky introduced "Co-Commentators" into the live broadcast but it seems half my life ago! They have, up until a few years ago, been exclusively players that have hit the heights of the EPL, won multiple honours and really know the way the game is played and what can be expected in any segment of play but also in the mind of the manger, the captain etc. So in the last 30 years the co-commentators have come from players who can boast multiple seasons as a SENIOR player in a EPL team. This role and hence job, has only been available to those with a top 'CV' from a big club with multiple years and the ability to talk on tv; Shearer, Keane, Wright, Ferdinand, McMannaman, Murphy, Hansen, Keown, Carra, Ratboy & Crouch and in recent times Richards, "jj" and Hargreaves.

So the inclusion of women pundits (not commentators) seems a jar. The women's PL is progressing rapidly but it's hard to imagine a single person who thinks that there's a women's pro who has experienced the game in the same way as a multi-season male EPL pro. That seemed to be the requirement. We don't have anyone from the EPL Barnsley team co-commentating, nor from the Leicester team that briefly hit the heights even. So either it is possible for any professional footballer to have a valid opinion, male or female or we want pundits (NOT COMMENTATORS ) to have the experience of the speed, pressures and challenges of the EPL or not.

I'm too old to be arsed and I hate Joey started his kamikaze media hate spiel in this area. but I do think that if in my profession a whole new cadre of peeps get fast tracked to top jobs without the creds that were previously required I'd be pissed. I lay this open to the suggestion those creds were'nt required but still.

... and I repeat co-commentator not commentator

Everyone knows the only reason this is happening is because politically correct zealots want to bully people they hate into submission. You'd have to be incredibly thick not to see that.

So anyone with a bit of spirit is bound to find the hypocrisy at least slightly annoying.

But when the pundits that result are generally at least as good and way less smug as dickheads like Jermaine Jenas, and Joey fucking Barton is spouting idiotic hate about it, then obviously it's much harder to care.

 

[StevieM]

You also make a good point. I guess the only way she could prove herself as a pundit would be to show how good she is doing the womens games.

But then do you allow men to do punditry in womans’s games?

I’m firmly in the camp that if they’re good enough, great - equality of opportunity doesn’t exist, it’s a red herring because a woman is never going have the same opportunity to be a pundit unless you open up different routes for people to succeed.

If you believe that to be a top quality pundit you have to have played at the highest level of the men’s game then there is no equality because that’s something a woman could never achieve, no matter what skills or knowledge they possessed.

 

[StevieM]

Yepp, all in the same super dull voice! Stevie McManaman is another waste of space. He spends half the game rephrasing what the commentator just said in the same way we learnt German at school. “Tha was a great pass wasn’t it Steve?”. “oh yeah, for sure, that was a great pass”

Totally - and therein lies the problem - both exceptionally talented footballers but not really skilled broadcasters.

I have no idea whether the current crop of female pundits are any good - but their lack of a penis shouldn’t necessarily affect their ability to cobble together a coherent interesting sentence.

 

[Modo]

But then do you allow men to do punditry in womans’s games?

I’m firmly in the camp that if they’re good enough, great - equality of opportunity doesn’t exist, it’s a red herring because a woman is never going have the same opportunity to be a pundit unless you open up different routes for people to succeed.

If you believe that to be a top quality pundit you have to have played at the highest level of the men’s game then there is no equality because that’s something a woman could never achieve, no matter what skills or knowledge they possessed.

To grow the game, I think punditry in the Women's world cup actually women's football in general should be exclusively done by women. They know best about women's football.
We're starting to see female refs in the men's game too and honestly, I don't mind it at all. Those refs have worked their way up and deserve to be there and same should apply to punditry imo.
I watch Goldbridge at times on Youtube and other armchair supporters and I'm fine with it.
No, I don't think they have to play at the highest level, in the end it's all about they say.

 

[dee]

But then do you allow men to do punditry in womans’s games?

I’m firmly in the camp that if they’re good enough, great - equality of opportunity doesn’t exist, it’s a red herring because a woman is never going have the same opportunity to be a pundit unless you open up different routes for people to succeed.

If you believe that to be a top quality pundit you have to have played at the highest level of the men’s game then there is no equality because that’s something a woman could never achieve, no matter what skills or knowledge they possessed.

We had our first female Lino a few years back (which got rid of two exceptionally irritating twats), this season we 've had our first female ref and the return of a black ref. Minorities are getting pathways based on achievement (and probably a bit of extra help) and that's fair. Alex Scott is obviously being groomed as a replacement for Lineker. If we'd have seem a few really talented female ex-player pundits joining the ranks it wouldn't have been a surprise. For me it been the sudden rush to have almost equality in numbers regardless of talent. It can do more harm than good in the long run

 

[StevieM]

We had our first female Lino a few years back (which got rid of two exceptionally irritating twats), this season we 've had our first female ref and the return of a black ref. Minorities are getting pathways based on achievement (and probably a bit of extra help) and that's fair. Alex Scott is obviously being groomed as a replacement for Lineker. If we'd have seem a few really talented female ex-player pundits joining the ranks it wouldn't have been a surprise. For me it been the sudden rush to have almost equality in numbers regardless of talent. It can do more harm than good in the long run

Which talentless females are we talking about here?

 

[StevieM]

To grow the game, I think punditry in the Women's world cup actually women's football in general should be exclusively done by women. They know best about women's football.
We're starting to see female refs in the men's game too and honestly, I don't mind it at all. Those refs have worked their way up and deserve to be there and same should apply to punditry imo.
I watch Goldbridge at times on Youtube and other armchair supporters and I'm fine with it.
No, I don't think they have to play at the highest level, in the end it's all about they say.

I’d imagine the female Refs aren’t any worse than the males.

Maybe give female refs control of VAR d see how it goes.

 

[rubans]

Radical I know but just listen to the person and make up your own mind based on their insight. There is always a mute button or an off switch.

As for Barton, the usual screaming suspects have ensured his drivel and thus his media profile is raised. I bet he can't believe his luck.

Kind of easy to say just ignore, but since he started his drivel campaign, how many women commentators have had utter hate directed them on social media by those now backed by him? He is an catalyst and enabler.

 

[darkstarexodus]

This discussion is missing the real point. On a per game basis, the new PL media deal doesn't pay as much as the current one.

Need more eyes on the screen to drive the $$$ into the game. Female pundits, commentators, etc are seen as a way of opening up a new market and new customers that traditionally have cared less about the sport than straight, white men.

Same way some folks talk about "that deal pays for itself" when we sign some player from a country in Asia.

Follow the dollars, not the DEI policy.

 

[peterhague]

This discussion is missing the real point. On a per game basis, the new PL media deal doesn't pay as much as the current one.

Need more eyes on the screen to drive the $$$ into the game. Female pundits, commentators, etc are seen as a way of opening up a new market and new customers that traditionally have cared less about the sport than straight, white men.

Same way some folks talk about "that deal pays for itself" when we sign some player from a country in Asia.

Follow the dollars, not the DEI policy.

I can't imagine any business person being stupid enough to think women are going to be tricked en masse into watching 90 minutes of something they hate just because they see a couple of female pundits at half-time. It's not a credible explanation.

 

[Athens]

I can't imagine any business person being stupid enough to think women are going to be tricked en masse into watching 90 minutes of something they hate just because they see a couple of female pundits at half-time. It's not a credible explanation.

I suppose they're aiming more at girls than women who already think football is just a bunch of blokes chasing a ball around a field.

 

[peterhague]

I suppose they're aiming more at girls than women who already think football is just a bunch of blokes chasing a ball around a field.

They'd be better off employing some tiktok star or whatever. It could be the football version of the Itchy and Scratchy and Poochy show.

To the Xtreme!

 

[StevieM]

@Dee & @Modo

Question for you - are the female pundits any good - like so said, don’t get the same commentators over here.

My guess is that’s the crux of the matter - the claim being that they’re shit and being given the gig not because of ability - so what’s the feeling?

I get the “idea” that a make that’s played at the top has a lot more “experience “ in the game… but I just can’t shift an image of a pundit panel consisting of Harry Kane, Jack Grealish & John Terry (in full kit) and that fills me with great sadness.