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Mignolet... I'm off...

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[xtable]
{thead}
{tr}
{th=colspan:2}Simon Mignolet{/th}
{th}Comparison{/th}
{th=colspan:2}Loris Karius{/th}
{/tr}
{/thead}
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=rowspan:6}
image.php
{/td}
{td}GK{/td}
{th=scope:row}Position{/th}
{td}GK{/td}
{td=rowspan:6}
image.php
{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}28{/td}
{th=scope:row}Games played{/th}
{td}4{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}2,520{/td}
{th=scope:row}Minutes Played{/th}
{td}360{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}28{/td}
{th=scope:row}Starts{/th}
{td}4{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}0{/td}
{th=scope:row}
image.php
Substitution On
image.php
{/th}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{td}0{/td}
{th=scope:row}
image.php
Substitution Off
image.php
{/th}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
  • Goalkeeping

    [xtable]
    {colgroup}
    {col=25%x@}{/col}{col=50%x@}{/col}{col=25%x@}{/col}
    {/colgroup}
    {thead}
    {tr}
    {th}Simon Mignolet{/th}
    {th}Comparison{/th}
    {th}Loris Karius{/th}
    {/tr}
    {/thead}
    {tbody}
    {tr}
    {td}30{/td}
    {th=scope:row}Goals Conceded{/th}
    {td}4{/td}
    {/tr}
    {tr}
    {td}84{/td}
    {th=scope:row}Mins per goal conceded{/th}
    {td}90{/td}
    {/tr}
    {tr}
    {td}9{/td}
    {th=scope:row}Clean Sheets{/th}
    {td}2{/td}
    {/tr}
    {tr}
    {td}53{/td}
    {th=scope:row}Saves{/th}
    {td}2{/td}
    {/tr}
    {tr}
    {td}1.9{/td}
    {th=scope:row}Saves per 90 minutes{/th}
    {td}0.5{/td}
    {/tr}
    {tr}
    {td}63.9%{/td}
    {th=scope:row}Shots Saved{/th}
    {td}33.3%{/td}
    {/tr}
    {tr}
    {td}31{/td}
    {th=scope:row}Catches{/th}
    {td}5{/td}
    {/tr}
    {tr}
    {td}22{/td}
    {th=scope:row}Punches{/th}
    {td}3{/td}
    {/tr}
    {/tbody}
    [/xtable]
 
So in 4 games, Karius has an average of one save every other game and he's only saved a third of the shots he's faced?

Wow.
 
Every cloud has a silver lining. Over these long and difficult years, we're not alone for the rest of the team has surely by now developed a pathological fear of allowing even a single shooting chance to the other team, which can only be a good thing going forward.
 
mark1975 said:
So in 4 games, Karius has an average of one save every other game and he's only saved a third of the shots he's faced?

Wow.
Click to expand...

Well, you can look at the stats or watch the games. The 4 games is WBA, Everton, City and one more which I cant remember.

The goals against are against City and Everton. Hard to blame him for those goals aside the Sane one, which is a quite good finish anyway. We play a well organized defence and the whole team have actually performed well defensively if you look at the broad picture. We do tend to collapse brutally however, and it is then we need a goalie to keep us in the games. While I don't believe Karius is this goalie I certainly will not look at stats and throw in his face when I saw the games and rather judge him by that.
 
Insignificance said:
Well, you can look at the stats or watch the games. The 4 games is WBA, Everton, City and one more which I cant remember.

The goals against are against City and Everton. Hard to blame him for those goals aside the Sane one, which is a quite good finish anyway. We play a well organized defence and the whole team have actually performed well defensively if you look at the broad picture. We do tend to collapse brutally however, and it is then we need a goalie to keep us in the games. While I don't believe Karius is this goalie I certainly will not look at stats and throw in his face when I saw the games and rather judge him by that.
Click to expand...

What were the positives? He caught the ball once or twice? I get that stats aren't all that and I too would rather judge a player by watching him, but come on. You make it sound like the broader picture showed a much more positive performance. I'd say his distribution is better than Mignolet's and he's more decisive about when to clear it and go long. Mignolet is the better shot stopper, and that's proven in the stats and by watching him.

Neither are good enough, at the moment at least, but I'm definitely in the camp of sticking with one now for the rest of the season and then we can't say that both keepers haven't had a fair crack. If Karius fails, both can go and they can't really have any complaints.
 
mark1975 said:
What were the positives? He caught the ball once or twice? I get that stats aren't all that and I too would rather judge a player by watching him, but come on. You make it sound like the broader picture showed a much more positive performance. I'd say his distribution is better than Mignolet's and he's more decisive about when to clear it and go long. Mignolet is the better shot stopper, and that's proven in the stats and by watching him.

Neither are good enough, at the moment at least, but I'm definitely in the camp of sticking with one now for the rest of the season and then we can't say that both keepers haven't had a fair crack. If Karius fails, both can go and they can't really have any complaints.
Click to expand...

I agree With you that Karius is not the goalie going forward. Did you miss that? I just said that those stats, from a very Limited amount of games is unfair to use against him.

There are positives I Guess. Can't see too many of them, but he had a good pre season last summer, before he bottled it when given the cahnce after his injury. Was it nerves and too much pressure to perform for us or was it just that he is not good enough? Somehow I see the arrogance we often see in a top goalie, but to me it is hard to understand were this arrogance come from as he has not performed to a Level that should justify that. He has got more games under his belt this season and the team is used to him. He gets a commanding Central defender With him now that can help him organize the defence and it might lift him. I certainly hope so. He is a big lad, and I think that against City he tried to do his job simple and efficient. Often he just kicked it up there instead of trying to be smart. It was a big call for him, and all in all he did allright.

On the negative side he tends to drop the ball too much. A loose ball inside our box is inviting trouble. He seem to be nervous and the reaction after the Sane goal told me this was a boy that could suffer if we were put under pressure from them. I don't think he would have won us this game if we depended on him. So he got a mentality part to work on in addition to work on clearing the ball out of Our Box instead of dropping it. His distribution can of course be better but he got time on his side for that.

So the broader Picture is more than meaningless stats. Give him a 30+ game sample at least.
 
In one of the articles, it says that he's saved more Prem pens than Courtois, Cech and P.Schmeichel combined. Obviously we'd swap penalty saves for a keeper of their quality any day of the week.
 
Insignificance said:
True. But I guess Smeichel never saved a penalty as the refs didn't dare award one.
Click to expand...
I saw an interview with Schmeichel & Fowler once after they both retired, they were asked the favourite moment of the others career.

From memory so words may not be exact.

Fowler replied "Watching him pick the ball out of the net"

Schmeichel replied "He was a pest. When he retired was my favourite moment"
 
FoxForceFive said:
It's impossible to judge a keeper based simply on the way they play with other sides imo.

There's way too many variables, how many shots they face, where those shots are likely to come from, the defence in front of them, how important distribution is to the team & the type of distribution required.
Click to expand...
Well the same could be said for any player, especially those playing in foreign leagues and in a team with a totally different style to our own .. and yet we still judge them ! However in many respects a GK is easier because much of his work is independent and unrelated to team dynamics ; catching, command of his area, kicking accuracy, shot stopping and so on.
 
Modo said:
Reason I'm asking is that penalty saving seems to be his more memorable trait. Got to give him something.
Click to expand...
Which is why it is bizarre that Klopp said earlier in the season the Karius will play in all the CL games. Given that they're both average goalkeepers at best surely Ming is the only choice for cup competitions in which a penalty shoot out (or two) is very likely.
 
I think we have been in one penalty shoot out every second year over the last 30 years or so, so even if it is handy I still think we should set him free.
 
Frogfish said:
Well the same could be said for any player, especially those playing in foreign leagues and in a team with a totally different style to our own .. and yet we still judge them ! However in many respects a GK is easier because much of his work is independent and unrelated to team dynamics ; catching, command of his area, kicking accuracy, shot stopping and so on.
Click to expand...
I don't completely disagree. I don't think it's any easier to judge a keeper though, in many ways I think it's harder.

There's a lot of anecdotal (perhaps that's the wrong word actually) evidence to suggest that keepers at sides that allow a lot of shots will be better shot stoppers since they're always 'switched on' mentally though.

We often have games where the keeper may only need to be used three of four times.

Having the ability to perform at their best having been stood almost idly or just playing almost as a defender for 95% of the time is a very different beast to that of a keeper who is making saves every five minutes.

The defence & midfield setup in front if the keeper at a smaller or different club can often be very rigid. A Moyes or an Allardyce side for example, even the way Sean Dyche sets up, is all about restricting shots from the danger areas & if forced to concede a shooting opportunity its usually from a low scoring opportunity area. They literally drill that constantly.

They play with consistent defence whenever possible, rotation at the back is very rare at the majority of clubs.

Contrast that with a side like ours, where we often play with just two real defenders, & try to defend from the front & the personnel can vary from match to match.

So you then have a situation where a keeper is facing only a few risks a game, & when they do the defence is often outnumbered, the keeper & their teammates perhaps not always completely in tune with each other as they don't always play together, & the attackers in more dangerous positions.

I'd say the closest analogy is a striker role, a striker can bang a lot of goals in for Utd due to the service he's getting, but throw him in a side at the bottom of the league & he'll be lucky to get a couple of chances a match to try to use that due to the lack of service.
 
If we're in 119th minute and we have one sub left and Karius is in goal. I'd definitely sub him for Mignolet.
 
Modo said:
Why "...." they won didn't they?
Click to expand...

Worked fantastic for me. I had all kind of scum friends pinpointing what a genious they already had hired, and they couldn't wait for his arrival. And a few weeks later they couldn't wait for that airpplane to circle over their shithole stadium.
 
Hansern said:
Yes, which means it worked out very well?! It was more that its a very bizarre thing to do, and you'd have to be a lunatic like Van Gaal.
Click to expand...
I remember Martin O'Neill did it when he was Leicester manager. They were 1 minute from the end of extra time in a vital play off game and he subbed his very good and very established keeper (Tim Flowers) for a relatively unknown, inexperience giant who was about 6'8" (203cm). Flowers looked furious as he came off but when I saw the size of the sub keeper I thought it was a decent decision because he filled the goal. As it happens it was all for nowt because 30 seconds later Steve Claridge scored for Leicester and penalties weren't needed. I remember the after-match celebration and when O'Neill went to give Flowers a hug Flowers looked thoroughly unimpressed.
 
We need to bring him off the bench for the Champions League Final if it goes to Penalties though

Mingolet is 'da shit' at saving Penalties whilst Karius is just shit..

What is it 7-8 penalties Mingolet has saved for us?

Despite his inadequacies, that's really is quite decent when you think about it..
 
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