Square peg in a round hole, Harvey Elliott?
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Really?
He’s been one of our better players when he played.
He’s been one of our better players when he played.
The kid is decent, but when he does start, it all feels unbalanced. I don't think him as a CAM works out for us in a 4-3-3 formation.If he is to have a future, I would say he should learn to play much deeper.
CDM? Those short legs aren't taking the ball away from anyone.
The only thing Harvey got going for him now is the fact that he's talented and young. So there's room for improvement. He can either turn into some kinda Iniesta type player or diet Joe Cole.
That's totally up to him.
There's simply no need to make any sweeping conclusions about him at 20. There's lots to like about Elliott. He's grown up and matured very quickly, technically he's decent and his decision making is above his years. He's never going to be the best off the ball, or have the pace and strength to do what Salah and Diaz can do, so I agree with Modo that he needs moulding into some Iniesta-lite style CM that retains the ball and damage teams with his movement and passing. He'll still only be 22/23 when Klopp leaves Liverpool, so I do not see it as the end of the world if he's not a natural fit at this moment in time.
Oh FFS. Stop talking sense
As I said above he is decent but isn't suited as an attacking player in our system. I said he needs to learn to play in a deeper role.
What deeper role do you mean?
He generally plays in a position where if he goes any deeper he’d be playing as a DM instead of Fabs, a centre back or Keeper.
If Trent continues to be listed as a RB who moves into a central midfield position while the right CB covers the space at RB - then Harvey in the Hendo role means one of his main responsibilities is providing the support for Salah & some width at times - while also pressing and retaining possession.
He needs to improve his physicality as he gets pushed off the ball too much, both otherwise he has the tools.
I think the issue with Elliott is that he's technically nice, but not elite. A lot of young players with nice technique make it playing in wide positions, where they have a lot of space to operate. But the moment they come up the ranks, they realise that to play out wide, you need a lot of pace and power, and the nice technique alone doesn't cut it.
It's why Elliott's forced to now play in midfield even though he started off as a winger in the youth teams. For a CM though, when you're operating in extremely tight spaces, the level of technique required is even higher, especially if you're trying to establish yourself as a playmaker. Elliott is tidy and comfortable on the ball, but he takes too many touches, and wastes a lot of time trying to get the ball on his favoured left foot. It's an issue which plagued Lallana all through his career - he dawdled on the ball too much. Elliott needs to sharpen his technique, focus on quicker execution of passes with both feet. The alternative is to become the runner type of midfielder - I think he has the attitude and mentality for that, but not sure if he has the athleticism. He's still only 19, so there is time for him to develop physically.
The bottom line however has to be clean up the execution aspects of his game. At the moment, he offers comfort in possession but no actual threat in terms of incisive passing or crossing, and nor does he provide elite off-ball running.
But there is plenty of time for him to work these issues out. The good thing is that his attitude seems top notch.
Of course, he has time on his side to develop (and the right attitude to boot), but at the end of another season I still can’t shake the feeling he’s something off a Shaqiri clone.
He’ll have a career that most players will envy, but will never quite establish himself at the top and be perpetually caught between positions in different systems.
He’ll have a career that most players will envy, but will never quite establish himself at the top and be perpetually caught between positions in different systems.
We all agree with his current physical profile he isn't equipped to play CAM. Now, I think with training he could be a Deep Lying Play Maker where speed isn't necessary but guile and intelligence is
Quite. It's like there's the fascination with deciding at the earliest opportunity whether someone is good enough. I know we can surmise about any player whether they have something or not, but when players have shown quality at such a relatively tender age, there's no need to rush anything. Many would have sold Jones a few months ago, now he looks worth persevering with again, Elliott is out of favour a bit while we try to strike some balance, cue determining now whether he's good enough or whatever.
I know positionally he's a bit of a conundrum, but it might not be down to physicality and suitability, it could just be down to inexperience and learning the demands and expectations. We're so fucking hung up on deciding prematurely whether players are ever going to be good enough.
I'd still sell Jones if an offer came in above £20m. How long before he is out for 3M+? Other than @Gary25 no one has concluded that he isn't good enough. several people including e are voicing concerns. I think he could have a future in an Alonso-type role but needs to evolve.
Iniesta struck me as an intelligent, humble 22/23 year old focused on purely development and football.
Harvey strikes me as a bit of a chav, his attention split on football and what people think of him.
For the intelligence alone, I can't see him becoming the player we would need him to be (for a player who lacks any outstanding physical quality; heh, even Iniesta had a surprising burst of pace on the ball).
Unless he is going to grow taller, run faster or get stronger, whether he is 20 years old or not, he won't make it in our midfield. Same for Fabio.
It's cruel but that's how it is.
He will hang around because he is home-grown but he will never be able to cement a first team spot consistently.
It's cruel but that's how it is.
He will hang around because he is home-grown but he will never be able to cement a first team spot consistently.
He's obviously a good player, he wouldn't be here otherwise. I prefer Jones by a distance at the moment but that's not to say Harvey doesn't have a higher ceiling. I'd be loathed to get rid of him because there's a player there but, he's not good enough for a start at the moment, but then he is 20. We shouldn't be putting someone with that talent in the bin at 20.
That’s only half the problem, there’s so much he needs to improve or add to his game, do you really see a club like Liverpool waiting around for him? Course not. We’re going to sign 2 maybe 3 midfielders, hopefully they all stay fit which will mean his game time will be limited….kinda like it has been the last 5 games.
Foden's a good example isn't he? How many years were people baying for him to be in City's team? The wait paid off.
What was his actual position when he played for Blackburn ? was it as a right forward winger ? because I think if it was - is that not his best position ? he is not the type to take on defenders - he needs to play his one-two with someone overlapping to be effective. What I like about him is that he is comfortable on the ball, and running with it, and his decision making going forward is good. I honestly don't think he has the body frame to play in midfield or anywhere close to our defensive line.
What works in the Championship won't necessarily work with us. Watch the video I posted, the kid can pass (not the 5-yard passes a certain player is being raved about doing). That's the side of the game he should develop but from a deeper role, where he may get more time. He does need to get stronger, because a slight bit of contact, and he is flying
Just watch back the defeat against Bournemouth, where average journeyman like Billing and Solanke physically destroyed Baj and Harvey. Harvey especially, it's literally men against boys.
Harvey could do well if we play against teams like City or the european teams where they play football. When you come against physical teams in the league, Harvey is a liability. What's the point of grooming and persisting with a player, whose lack of physicality puts us at a disadvantage and that's never going to change.
If you wonder why we have struggled against the bottom clubs this season, a big part of it's because Hendo, Fab don't have the legs to put in any sort of challenge anymore, while wee Harvey, Thiago, Keita, Ox are just falling all over the place when physical teams come at us.
Harvey could do well if we play against teams like City or the european teams where they play football. When you come against physical teams in the league, Harvey is a liability. What's the point of grooming and persisting with a player, whose lack of physicality puts us at a disadvantage and that's never going to change.
If you wonder why we have struggled against the bottom clubs this season, a big part of it's because Hendo, Fab don't have the legs to put in any sort of challenge anymore, while wee Harvey, Thiago, Keita, Ox are just falling all over the place when physical teams come at us.
That last bit is not entirely true, prior to Thiago's injury I think there were stats that made him one of the most active DM's in the world in terms of tackles and interceptions - because the two others he has had to play with were utter garbage. The only relief he had during that period was when we introduced Bajceitc - because he could run and play ball.
That's attitude not physique, look at the likes of Mascher, Kante, Makelele midfielders can be small and still dominate in the PL if they have the right attitude. Even in attackers its a requirement you don't see Mo get knocked around and give up just because he's 20lbs lighter than the defenders he comes up against. Elliott is the same size as Caicedo and nobody considers him too small.
For a midfielder in a Klopp team the main attributes required are workrate, tenacity and tactical awareness. You don't need to look like one of the Avengers.
I think that is partly my point. You can be small but physically strong. Caicedo is only 20 and he is obviously much stronger than Harvey even when they are almost the same size. Harvey and Fabio are physically weak. They are far too weak for us to persist with. Thiago, Ox and Keita we can make a point for, whether they are just mentality weak or their attitude is poor I can't pinpoint, but none of them impose themselves in midfield, at least recently. 2 are out of the door now and 1 is on the way out. We are not getting any returns off them because we persisted too long.
The odds of that happening were 3,720 to 1!
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