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VAR

Discussion in 'The Football Forum' started by binomial, Sep 17, 2019.

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  1. Insignificance

    Insignificance Bad to the bone Member

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    VAR ruling out a goal after 25 mins for offside doesn't help any team win a game. We crafted out a good win in a difficult away game scoring 2 beautiful goals along the way. Goals have a tendency to change games. Their was ruled out (correctly) and we scored just after. Assuming that our team would crumble and fall if the decision to allow the offside goal stood can of course be debated, but a team that has lost 1 League game since may 2018 should have the benefit of the doubts. Could we have won anyway? All evidence points in that direction.
     
  2. Farkmaster

    Farkmaster Very Well-Known Member

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    VAR is like gps.

    If you use GPS, you'll on average not get lost as much, but it isn't faultless.  Its chief success is that instead of yelling at each other when you end up with a bad outcome, you get to yell at this faceless technology.
     
  3. juniormember

    juniormember Well-Known Member

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    Fox, it’s not about broadcasting at 100 or 120fps. The current 50fps footage isn’t broadcasted that way either. They’re simply showing the back room staff going through the 50fps footage on your 25-30fps broadcast. They ONLY need to upgrade the cameras and transmission system for the VAR officials’ room. It’s easy.
     
  4. HC

    HC Very Well-Known Member

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    Doesnt VAR use broadcast footage, therefore you would have to uprgrade broadcasters cameras?
     
  5. Markeh

    Markeh Very Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was confirmed they don't use broadcast footage and it was supposed to be 200fps+like other sporting systems?
     
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  6. FoxForceFive

    FoxForceFive Administrator Administrator

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    Just found this:

    33 cameras are used in one match, including 8 Super Slow Motion cameras and 4 Ultra Slow Motion cameras with speeds up to 120 frames per second, in addition to normal speed cameras with degrees Ultra HD resolution.

    You'd hope the 120fps cameras are the ones in place for offside, the fact there are just 4 suggests they are.

    That explains the lengthy delay on offside decisions, as finding the correct frame would be very fucking tricky, as once you've narrowed down the exact second the move happens (which is of course subjective), you've then got to go through 120 frames to get the exact moment that phase of play starts, or the exact moment the ball leaves the foot.

    It'd be easy if you could spin around the action, like in a FIFA replay, but of course they can't, so with a side on view that's a bastard to envisage doing.
     
  7. Markeh

    Markeh Very Well-Known Member

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    Yea totally agree with you on this, I also think the answer involves a margin of error being factored into the decision. At least two of the variables are subjective, where the players shoulder/arm starts/ends and like you said which frame the foot first contacts the ball. As far as I'm aware the men sitting at the screens manually decide the frame to freeze on and place the lines themselves.

    The higher the frame rate the smaller the margin of error, if the margin is negligible then maybe decisions within that margin should be ignored by VAR.
     
  8. HC

    HC Very Well-Known Member

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    Nah knew I'd seen it was broadcast footage this is swarbrick talking in the middle of August , he's like the PGMOLs lead on var..

    What about tight offside calls and the accuracy of the footage available to the VAR to make judgments. What is the situation here?

    All that the VARs can use is the technology that’s there for them.

    At this moment the cameras that the broadcasters operate with have 50 frames per second, so that’s all we can use.

    So the point of contact with the ball is one of those frames inside the 50 per second.

    The technology we’ve got, with 3D lines to judge whether a player is offside, is obviously better than the 2D lines of last season, so we’ve progressed.
     
  9. HC

    HC Very Well-Known Member

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    I think your severely underestimating the costs involved of capturing and broadcasting footage at 50fps let alone 3/4x greater that. It's not something sky or the club's are going to want to absorb.

    I think we will require a change in tact or approach to see improvements

    Pretty sure the idea that purpose used var cameras were used was partially born from BT saying how they had access to camera angles that var didn't have , for some reason
     
  10. FoxForceFive

    FoxForceFive Administrator Administrator

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    Looks like you're right, did some more googling.

    FIFA using VAR at the world cup was the system I found above with 120fps cameras for offside. The PL uses broadcast cameras for all decisions.

    Fuck me. That's an astonishing margin of error that's introduced, even assuming the correct frame (or as close to correct as you can get) has been chosen.

    13cm, I'd argue, is more than the human error if you just used a lino & his eyes.
     
  11. Mystic

    Mystic Moderator Moderator

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    The cost is absolutely negligible for the premier league or Sky, I mean, of course they aren't going to want to spend money for the sake of it, but they should, and could easily afford it.
     
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  12. HC

    HC Very Well-Known Member

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    Nah you're clearly totally unaware of the costs involved here , they're far from negligible for any business !

    Just because you can afford something it doesn't mean you should/want or even need to it.

    In Sky's case , they're already under attack from multiple angles in regards to sports broadcasting and their subscriptions , investing money into a market they're under great stress when the return on investment to them is approximately 0 at this point in time is just mad
     
  13. Brizzle

    Brizzle Very Well-Known Member

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    For offsides I think we just need to accept that it is applying the same rules for everyone and not get caught up in the whole "but it was millimetres" chat. I don't think its use in offsides is for 'clear and obvious' but for all decisions. The 'clear and obvious' is for subjective decisions e.g. pens, serious fouls, handballs etc.
     
  14. Markeh

    Markeh Very Well-Known Member

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    It's really not sky's responsibility either is it. The other systems in sport are not tied to the broadcaster.

    I wonder if the maths came up in a meeting, there's a big margin of error at 50fps guys Vs free existing cameras.
     
  15. HC

    HC Very Well-Known Member

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    I can't imagine it's changed much , sky , itv and Bbc used to own all the broadcasting equipment in the stadiums and people to pay to use their feeds .

    Imagine it's sky and BT owning much or the infrastructure now and yeah exactly , it's nothing to do with them , they get zero value from it

    I'm sure I've read somewhere that in cases of great speed , the margin of error could be nigh on the length of the boot at present potentially completely rendering a decision useless
     
  16. ibromurph

    ibromurph Well-Known Member

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    Like has been said. It's not VAR that's the problem, but the humans applying it.

    They should just come out and say, we're only using VAR for offsides, goal-line tech, fouls inside/outside the box, mistaken red card identity and nothing else. Basically all objective calls.

    There is no point talking about stepping in when a "clear and obvious error" has been made, because that's subjective. And as we've seen this year, when those clear and obvious mistakes have been shown on TV, the VAR does NOT overrule the referee; I don't think they've even asked him to come over to the side of the pitch once, in any game.

    That Arsenal handball last night was one of the clearest handballs I've ever seen, and yet the referee wasn't even advised to go and see it. It's a complete farce!
     
  17. Hyena

    Hyena Well-Known Member

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    They should allow each manager limited opportunites to demand that the Ref come over and view the replay ( in addition to the VAR team).

    Over time, sides that can afford it will invest into better technology so they know when it's worth making the call.

    Other than that I'm not sure what's so wrong about VAR
     
  18. Nir.Barak

    Nir.Barak Very Active Member

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    Why not just use the first frame in which the passing player makes contact with the ball before the actual pass.

    It's just like what the linesman sees and looks for, and if it's offside then, it's definitely offside when the ball leaves his foot.

    Inspecting over dozens of frames is inapplicable.
     
  19. svennis

    svennis SCM Follower Member

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    Teams would just start using it to waste time. Imagine leading 1-0 and being under pressure. Just demand VAR and get couple of minutes break and kill the other teams momentum.
     
  20. juniormember

    juniormember Well-Known Member

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    Well, what if the frame doesn’t catch the precise point of contact? With only 50fps that’s easily possible and is the point of discussion here.
    Multiple frames aren’t used to determine offside, they scroll around multiple frames to determine that exact frame. But it’s too imprecise right now.
     
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