Poll When Magic returns...
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You may well have a point, but what about the "we win more games when Lucas plays instead of Alonso" stat?
I can't remember, I assume it was proven to be so in that massive thread of Rebels?
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=39102.msg1062037#msg1062037 date=1267396671]
When Johnson was in the team at RB we scored less goals and conceded more goals (on average) than we did last season.
[/quote]
this season there has been disruption in CM and there has been disruption at center back and usually reliable people like carra and masher where struggling for form so its a little harsh to blame johnson for that.
When Johnson was in the team at RB we scored less goals and conceded more goals (on average) than we did last season.
[/quote]
this season there has been disruption in CM and there has been disruption at center back and usually reliable people like carra and masher where struggling for form so its a little harsh to blame johnson for that.
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=39102.msg1062044#msg1062044 date=1267396927]
I can't remember, I assume it was proven to be so in that massive thread of Rebels?
[/quote]
Well I'll put it to you this way, this season is the first one that Lucas has been a first choice midfielder and started regularly.
We were out of the CL by Crimbo, as well as the FA Cup and Carling Cup. We're sixth in the league. So I'd be willing to bet if that stat was ever true it was on account of a small sample size. A bit like the N'Gog having the best goals to minutes ratio earlier in the season.
I can't remember, I assume it was proven to be so in that massive thread of Rebels?
[/quote]
Well I'll put it to you this way, this season is the first one that Lucas has been a first choice midfielder and started regularly.
We were out of the CL by Crimbo, as well as the FA Cup and Carling Cup. We're sixth in the league. So I'd be willing to bet if that stat was ever true it was on account of a small sample size. A bit like the N'Gog having the best goals to minutes ratio earlier in the season.
Of course Johnson's attacking thrust and defensive weaknesses cost us early in the season, but is that reason enough never to play him there again?
The way some of you are going on, he's either to be played at right-wing or not at all. He's a right-back, it's where he's played his whole career and why he was bought (and before some smartarse points out the Kuyt signing, don't - they're entirely different circumstances). Besides, our early season malaise can't wholly be attributed to him and his presence in the team. Carra was having (an admitted) slump, Skrtel was off-form, Kygriakos was new also, and Agger injured. We were conceeding from set-pieces regularly, and worryingly for Glenjo he seems to be lumbered with this can't defend tag because Arshavin made a mug out of him once.
I agree he needs to improve defensively, but as I said at the time that could and will improve by playing regularly alongside the likes of Carra et al. ILook at Cole and Evra - the two best attacking full-backs in the league, both of them were defensively horrendous for the best part of 1-2 years at Arsenal and United. The 'move them forward to the wing' argument was proffered with them too, and rightly ignored. After years of playing alongside excellent defenders, learning how to play the position from an attacking and defensive perspective, improving their positioning defensively, and adjusting to the team's style of play they're now the two best full-backs in the league. Glenjo can go that way - he's strong, quick, is absolutely excellent on the ball and young. He can play the game, he just needs time to adjust.
I agree re the point made earlier that it's foolhardy to play two atacking full-backs. There's a reason why Ivanovic has een preferred at right-back in the big games to Bosingwa of late, similarly O'Shea at right-back was de rigeur when United went to the CL Final to compensate for Evra on the other flank.
The way some of you are going on, he's either to be played at right-wing or not at all. He's a right-back, it's where he's played his whole career and why he was bought (and before some smartarse points out the Kuyt signing, don't - they're entirely different circumstances). Besides, our early season malaise can't wholly be attributed to him and his presence in the team. Carra was having (an admitted) slump, Skrtel was off-form, Kygriakos was new also, and Agger injured. We were conceeding from set-pieces regularly, and worryingly for Glenjo he seems to be lumbered with this can't defend tag because Arshavin made a mug out of him once.
I agree he needs to improve defensively, but as I said at the time that could and will improve by playing regularly alongside the likes of Carra et al. ILook at Cole and Evra - the two best attacking full-backs in the league, both of them were defensively horrendous for the best part of 1-2 years at Arsenal and United. The 'move them forward to the wing' argument was proffered with them too, and rightly ignored. After years of playing alongside excellent defenders, learning how to play the position from an attacking and defensive perspective, improving their positioning defensively, and adjusting to the team's style of play they're now the two best full-backs in the league. Glenjo can go that way - he's strong, quick, is absolutely excellent on the ball and young. He can play the game, he just needs time to adjust.
I agree re the point made earlier that it's foolhardy to play two atacking full-backs. There's a reason why Ivanovic has een preferred at right-back in the big games to Bosingwa of late, similarly O'Shea at right-back was de rigeur when United went to the CL Final to compensate for Evra on the other flank.
I suggested earlier this season that we should play Johnson at RM, but that was only really to boost his confidence as he was looking pretty fragile and scared of making a mistake.
At RB, he has more space to run into and is marked less consistently than he would at RM and this suits his game. If he was played in midfield, he might also have to drift infield to create space for the fullback getting forward and I'm not sure whether that would be a good thing either.
All the top teams have managed to play with attacking fullbacks for years now - Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca et al. If we can't, I think we should be looking at the defence and midfield (we should be doing in the summer anyways) and asking why.
At RB, he has more space to run into and is marked less consistently than he would at RM and this suits his game. If he was played in midfield, he might also have to drift infield to create space for the fullback getting forward and I'm not sure whether that would be a good thing either.
All the top teams have managed to play with attacking fullbacks for years now - Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca et al. If we can't, I think we should be looking at the defence and midfield (we should be doing in the summer anyways) and asking why.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=39102.msg1062155#msg1062155 date=1267426865]
I suggested earlier this season that we should play Johnson at RM, but that was only really to boost his confidence as he was looking pretty fragile and scared of making a mistake.
At RB, he has more space to run into and is marked less consistently than he would at RM and this suits his game. If he was played in midfield, he might also have to drift infield to create space for the fullback getting forward and I'm not sure whether that would be a good thing either.
All the top teams have managed to play with attacking fullbacks for years now - Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca et al. If we can't, I think we should be looking at the defence and midfield (we should be doing in the summer anyways) and asking why.
[/quote]
^^^
I suggested earlier this season that we should play Johnson at RM, but that was only really to boost his confidence as he was looking pretty fragile and scared of making a mistake.
At RB, he has more space to run into and is marked less consistently than he would at RM and this suits his game. If he was played in midfield, he might also have to drift infield to create space for the fullback getting forward and I'm not sure whether that would be a good thing either.
All the top teams have managed to play with attacking fullbacks for years now - Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barca et al. If we can't, I think we should be looking at the defence and midfield (we should be doing in the summer anyways) and asking why.
[/quote]
^^^
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39102.msg1062053#msg1062053 date=1267397649]
Of course Johnson's attacking thrust and defensive weaknesses cost us early in the season, but is that reason enough never to play him there again?
The way some of you are going on, he's either to be played at right-wing or not at all. He's a right-back, it's where he's played his whole career and why he was bought (and before some smartarse points out the Kuyt signing, don't - they're entirely different circumstances). Besides, our early season malaise can't wholly be attributed to him and his presence in the team. Carra was having (an admitted) slump, Skrtel was off-form, Kygriakos was new also, and Agger injured. We were conceeding from set-pieces regularly, and worryingly for Glenjo he seems to be lumbered with this can't defend tag because Arshavin made a mug out of him once.
I agree he needs to improve defensively, but as I said at the time that could and will improve by playing regularly alongside the likes of Carra et al. ILook at Cole and Evra - the two best attacking full-backs in the league, both of them were defensively horrendous for the best part of 1-2 years at Arsenal and United. The 'move them forward to the wing' argument was proffered with them too, and rightly ignored. After years of playing alongside excellent defenders, learning how to play the position from an attacking and defensive perspective, improving their positioning defensively, and adjusting to the team's style of play they're now the two best full-backs in the league. Glenjo can go that way - he's strong, quick, is absolutely excellent on the ball and young. He can play the game, he just needs time to adjust.
I agree re the point made earlier that it's foolhardy to play two atacking full-backs. There's a reason why Ivanovic has een preferred at right-back in the big games to Bosingwa of late, similarly O'Shea at right-back was de rigeur when United went to the CL Final to compensate for Evra on the other flank.
[/quote]
Good post Ryan.
I'm really not convinced that Johnson would cut it as a winger. We just need a better-balanced defence to allow him to attack from full-back.
And spidey, Insua definitely IS an attacking full-back. The fact that he's not all that good at it is neither here nor there. He's not a solid defender, and neither is Magic - and the combination leaves us too vulnerable.
The other advantage to having a more defensive defence, of course, is that it would allow us to play with only one DM.
Of course Johnson's attacking thrust and defensive weaknesses cost us early in the season, but is that reason enough never to play him there again?
The way some of you are going on, he's either to be played at right-wing or not at all. He's a right-back, it's where he's played his whole career and why he was bought (and before some smartarse points out the Kuyt signing, don't - they're entirely different circumstances). Besides, our early season malaise can't wholly be attributed to him and his presence in the team. Carra was having (an admitted) slump, Skrtel was off-form, Kygriakos was new also, and Agger injured. We were conceeding from set-pieces regularly, and worryingly for Glenjo he seems to be lumbered with this can't defend tag because Arshavin made a mug out of him once.
I agree he needs to improve defensively, but as I said at the time that could and will improve by playing regularly alongside the likes of Carra et al. ILook at Cole and Evra - the two best attacking full-backs in the league, both of them were defensively horrendous for the best part of 1-2 years at Arsenal and United. The 'move them forward to the wing' argument was proffered with them too, and rightly ignored. After years of playing alongside excellent defenders, learning how to play the position from an attacking and defensive perspective, improving their positioning defensively, and adjusting to the team's style of play they're now the two best full-backs in the league. Glenjo can go that way - he's strong, quick, is absolutely excellent on the ball and young. He can play the game, he just needs time to adjust.
I agree re the point made earlier that it's foolhardy to play two atacking full-backs. There's a reason why Ivanovic has een preferred at right-back in the big games to Bosingwa of late, similarly O'Shea at right-back was de rigeur when United went to the CL Final to compensate for Evra on the other flank.
[/quote]
Good post Ryan.
I'm really not convinced that Johnson would cut it as a winger. We just need a better-balanced defence to allow him to attack from full-back.
And spidey, Insua definitely IS an attacking full-back. The fact that he's not all that good at it is neither here nor there. He's not a solid defender, and neither is Magic - and the combination leaves us too vulnerable.
The other advantage to having a more defensive defence, of course, is that it would allow us to play with only one DM.
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39102.msg1062163#msg1062163 date=1267430208]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39102.msg1062053#msg1062053 date=1267397649]
Of course Johnson's attacking thrust and defensive weaknesses cost us early in the season, but is that reason enough never to play him there again?
The way some of you are going on, he's either to be played at right-wing or not at all. He's a right-back, it's where he's played his whole career and why he was bought (and before some smartarse points out the Kuyt signing, don't - they're entirely different circumstances). Besides, our early season malaise can't wholly be attributed to him and his presence in the team. Carra was having (an admitted) slump, Skrtel was off-form, Kygriakos was new also, and Agger injured. We were conceeding from set-pieces regularly, and worryingly for Glenjo he seems to be lumbered with this can't defend tag because Arshavin made a mug out of him once.
I agree he needs to improve defensively, but as I said at the time that could and will improve by playing regularly alongside the likes of Carra et al. ILook at Cole and Evra - the two best attacking full-backs in the league, both of them were defensively horrendous for the best part of 1-2 years at Arsenal and United. The 'move them forward to the wing' argument was proffered with them too, and rightly ignored. After years of playing alongside excellent defenders, learning how to play the position from an attacking and defensive perspective, improving their positioning defensively, and adjusting to the team's style of play they're now the two best full-backs in the league. Glenjo can go that way - he's strong, quick, is absolutely excellent on the ball and young. He can play the game, he just needs time to adjust.
I agree re the point made earlier that it's foolhardy to play two atacking full-backs. There's a reason why Ivanovic has een preferred at right-back in the big games to Bosingwa of late, similarly O'Shea at right-back was de rigeur when United went to the CL Final to compensate for Evra on the other flank.
[/quote]
Good post Ryan.
I'm really not convinced that Johnson would cut it as a winger. We just need a better-balanced defence to allow him to attack from full-back.
And spidey, Insua definitely IS an attacking full-back. The fact that he's not all that good at it is neither here nor there. He's not a solid defender, and neither is Magic - and the combination leaves us too vulnerable.
The other advantage to having a more defensive defence, of course, is that it would allow us to play with only one DM.
[/quote]
Two bang on posts there. I think Spidey really misses the wood over this issue. We all want to try and win games, but a stable defence without that holds it's line well is a lot more productive than us trying to pretend we can be Barcelona in the Premiership and get away with it.
The defence needs tweaking to keep it's solidity with Johnson in there, and Johnson himself needs alot of work to get up to speed with our defensive play. The main thing is he's got all the attributes to do so, he's certainly physically more suited to it than an Evra or a Cole, and they don't fair too badly at it either, because as Ryan pointed out, they always have a solid fullback on the otherside, meaning one can tuck in and compress the space in the centre when needed. And as you said BM, a solid defence would also negate the need for two DM's, which to me is a bigger issue than our defence not being attacking enough.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39102.msg1062053#msg1062053 date=1267397649]
Of course Johnson's attacking thrust and defensive weaknesses cost us early in the season, but is that reason enough never to play him there again?
The way some of you are going on, he's either to be played at right-wing or not at all. He's a right-back, it's where he's played his whole career and why he was bought (and before some smartarse points out the Kuyt signing, don't - they're entirely different circumstances). Besides, our early season malaise can't wholly be attributed to him and his presence in the team. Carra was having (an admitted) slump, Skrtel was off-form, Kygriakos was new also, and Agger injured. We were conceeding from set-pieces regularly, and worryingly for Glenjo he seems to be lumbered with this can't defend tag because Arshavin made a mug out of him once.
I agree he needs to improve defensively, but as I said at the time that could and will improve by playing regularly alongside the likes of Carra et al. ILook at Cole and Evra - the two best attacking full-backs in the league, both of them were defensively horrendous for the best part of 1-2 years at Arsenal and United. The 'move them forward to the wing' argument was proffered with them too, and rightly ignored. After years of playing alongside excellent defenders, learning how to play the position from an attacking and defensive perspective, improving their positioning defensively, and adjusting to the team's style of play they're now the two best full-backs in the league. Glenjo can go that way - he's strong, quick, is absolutely excellent on the ball and young. He can play the game, he just needs time to adjust.
I agree re the point made earlier that it's foolhardy to play two atacking full-backs. There's a reason why Ivanovic has een preferred at right-back in the big games to Bosingwa of late, similarly O'Shea at right-back was de rigeur when United went to the CL Final to compensate for Evra on the other flank.
[/quote]
Good post Ryan.
I'm really not convinced that Johnson would cut it as a winger. We just need a better-balanced defence to allow him to attack from full-back.
And spidey, Insua definitely IS an attacking full-back. The fact that he's not all that good at it is neither here nor there. He's not a solid defender, and neither is Magic - and the combination leaves us too vulnerable.
The other advantage to having a more defensive defence, of course, is that it would allow us to play with only one DM.
[/quote]
Two bang on posts there. I think Spidey really misses the wood over this issue. We all want to try and win games, but a stable defence without that holds it's line well is a lot more productive than us trying to pretend we can be Barcelona in the Premiership and get away with it.
The defence needs tweaking to keep it's solidity with Johnson in there, and Johnson himself needs alot of work to get up to speed with our defensive play. The main thing is he's got all the attributes to do so, he's certainly physically more suited to it than an Evra or a Cole, and they don't fair too badly at it either, because as Ryan pointed out, they always have a solid fullback on the otherside, meaning one can tuck in and compress the space in the centre when needed. And as you said BM, a solid defence would also negate the need for two DM's, which to me is a bigger issue than our defence not being attacking enough.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39102.msg1062172#msg1062172 date=1267432078]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39102.msg1062163#msg1062163 date=1267430208]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39102.msg1062053#msg1062053 date=1267397649]
Of course Johnson's attacking thrust and defensive weaknesses cost us early in the season, but is that reason enough never to play him there again?
The way some of you are going on, he's either to be played at right-wing or not at all. He's a right-back, it's where he's played his whole career and why he was bought (and before some smartarse points out the Kuyt signing, don't - they're entirely different circumstances). Besides, our early season malaise can't wholly be attributed to him and his presence in the team. Carra was having (an admitted) slump, Skrtel was off-form, Kygriakos was new also, and Agger injured. We were conceeding from set-pieces regularly, and worryingly for Glenjo he seems to be lumbered with this can't defend tag because Arshavin made a mug out of him once.
I agree he needs to improve defensively, but as I said at the time that could and will improve by playing regularly alongside the likes of Carra et al. ILook at Cole and Evra - the two best attacking full-backs in the league, both of them were defensively horrendous for the best part of 1-2 years at Arsenal and United. The 'move them forward to the wing' argument was proffered with them too, and rightly ignored. After years of playing alongside excellent defenders, learning how to play the position from an attacking and defensive perspective, improving their positioning defensively, and adjusting to the team's style of play they're now the two best full-backs in the league. Glenjo can go that way - he's strong, quick, is absolutely excellent on the ball and young. He can play the game, he just needs time to adjust.
I agree re the point made earlier that it's foolhardy to play two atacking full-backs. There's a reason why Ivanovic has een preferred at right-back in the big games to Bosingwa of late, similarly O'Shea at right-back was de rigeur when United went to the CL Final to compensate for Evra on the other flank.
[/quote]
Good post Ryan.
I'm really not convinced that Johnson would cut it as a winger. We just need a better-balanced defence to allow him to attack from full-back.
And spidey, Insua definitely IS an attacking full-back. The fact that he's not all that good at it is neither here nor there. He's not a solid defender, and neither is Magic - and the combination leaves us too vulnerable.
The other advantage to having a more defensive defence, of course, is that it would allow us to play with only one DM.
[/quote]
Two bang on posts there. I think Spidey really misses the wood over this issue. We all want to try and win games, but a stable defence without that holds it's line well is a lot more productive than us trying to pretend we can be Barcelona in the Premiership and get away with it.
The defence needs tweaking to keep it's solidity with Johnson in there, and Johnson himself needs alot of work to get up to speed with our defensive play. The main thing is he's got all the attributes to do so, he's certainly physically more suited to it than an Evra or a Cole, and they don't fair too badly at it either, because as Ryan pointed out, they always have a solid fullback on the otherside, meaning one can tuck in and compress the space in the centre when needed. And as you said BM, a solid defence would also negate the need for two DM's, which to me is a bigger issue than our defence not being attacking enough.
[/quote]
I see the woods just fine what I want to know is what is the point of having two holding midfielders if doesn't shiled the CB and give licence for the fullbacks to push up? fucking hell even gh didn't play with two holding midfielders
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39102.msg1062163#msg1062163 date=1267430208]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39102.msg1062053#msg1062053 date=1267397649]
Of course Johnson's attacking thrust and defensive weaknesses cost us early in the season, but is that reason enough never to play him there again?
The way some of you are going on, he's either to be played at right-wing or not at all. He's a right-back, it's where he's played his whole career and why he was bought (and before some smartarse points out the Kuyt signing, don't - they're entirely different circumstances). Besides, our early season malaise can't wholly be attributed to him and his presence in the team. Carra was having (an admitted) slump, Skrtel was off-form, Kygriakos was new also, and Agger injured. We were conceeding from set-pieces regularly, and worryingly for Glenjo he seems to be lumbered with this can't defend tag because Arshavin made a mug out of him once.
I agree he needs to improve defensively, but as I said at the time that could and will improve by playing regularly alongside the likes of Carra et al. ILook at Cole and Evra - the two best attacking full-backs in the league, both of them were defensively horrendous for the best part of 1-2 years at Arsenal and United. The 'move them forward to the wing' argument was proffered with them too, and rightly ignored. After years of playing alongside excellent defenders, learning how to play the position from an attacking and defensive perspective, improving their positioning defensively, and adjusting to the team's style of play they're now the two best full-backs in the league. Glenjo can go that way - he's strong, quick, is absolutely excellent on the ball and young. He can play the game, he just needs time to adjust.
I agree re the point made earlier that it's foolhardy to play two atacking full-backs. There's a reason why Ivanovic has een preferred at right-back in the big games to Bosingwa of late, similarly O'Shea at right-back was de rigeur when United went to the CL Final to compensate for Evra on the other flank.
[/quote]
Good post Ryan.
I'm really not convinced that Johnson would cut it as a winger. We just need a better-balanced defence to allow him to attack from full-back.
And spidey, Insua definitely IS an attacking full-back. The fact that he's not all that good at it is neither here nor there. He's not a solid defender, and neither is Magic - and the combination leaves us too vulnerable.
The other advantage to having a more defensive defence, of course, is that it would allow us to play with only one DM.
[/quote]
Two bang on posts there. I think Spidey really misses the wood over this issue. We all want to try and win games, but a stable defence without that holds it's line well is a lot more productive than us trying to pretend we can be Barcelona in the Premiership and get away with it.
The defence needs tweaking to keep it's solidity with Johnson in there, and Johnson himself needs alot of work to get up to speed with our defensive play. The main thing is he's got all the attributes to do so, he's certainly physically more suited to it than an Evra or a Cole, and they don't fair too badly at it either, because as Ryan pointed out, they always have a solid fullback on the otherside, meaning one can tuck in and compress the space in the centre when needed. And as you said BM, a solid defence would also negate the need for two DM's, which to me is a bigger issue than our defence not being attacking enough.
[/quote]
I see the woods just fine what I want to know is what is the point of having two holding midfielders if doesn't shiled the CB and give licence for the fullbacks to push up? fucking hell even gh didn't play with two holding midfielders
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39102.msg1062180#msg1062180 date=1267432571]
Errr.. that was my point Spidey, it doesn't work. So the two defensive midfielders issue is a bigger issue than how dazzling our fullbacks are.
[/quote]
yeah but why doesn't work with out the obligatory 'lucas is shit' comment? the system sounds so simple
1) we have no genuine (quality) wingers
2) the play we play on the wings moe often then not move inside
3) the fullbacks overlapp and create space and width
4) our TWO holding midfielders fill in the gaps they leave
so basically people want one of the sources of width to remain deep to ensure solidity? so what are the holding midfielders doing?
Errr.. that was my point Spidey, it doesn't work. So the two defensive midfielders issue is a bigger issue than how dazzling our fullbacks are.
[/quote]
yeah but why doesn't work with out the obligatory 'lucas is shit' comment? the system sounds so simple
1) we have no genuine (quality) wingers
2) the play we play on the wings moe often then not move inside
3) the fullbacks overlapp and create space and width
4) our TWO holding midfielders fill in the gaps they leave
so basically people want one of the sources of width to remain deep to ensure solidity? so what are the holding midfielders doing?
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39102.msg1062181#msg1062181 date=1267432909]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39102.msg1062180#msg1062180 date=1267432571]
Errr.. that was my point Spidey, it doesn't work. So the two defensive midfielders issue is a bigger issue than how dazzling our fullbacks are.
[/quote]
yeah but why doesn't work with out the obligatory 'lucas is shit' comment? the system sounds so simple
1) we have no genuine (quality) wingers
2) the play we play on the wings moe often then not move inside
3) the fullbacks overlapp and create space and width
4) our TWO holding midfielders fill in the gaps they leave
so basically people want one of the sources of width to remain deep to ensure solidity? so what are the holding midfielders doing?
[/quote]
I think you're overcomplicating things to accommodate/justify attacking fullbacks.
It's simple. We need:
Fullbacks that defend, generally hold the line well and support the wide men as and when. When one pushes forward the other needs to show awareness. When we're pressed we need to be compact and compress the space, which usually requires one or both fullbacks to tuck inside, minimising the space. We just don't do this with both Johnson and Insua/Aurelio in the side.
We need one defensive midfielder, it has to be Masher and he has to be more disciplined in his role and 'sit' more. At the minute, because Lucas is also there, he's given licence to press, which means he's doing the defensive play all over the place, wide, in the opponents half, etc (like people used to question over Momo). With a more complimentary partner in the centre he needs to be told to sit and to protect the back four.
We need quality outwide, particularly on the left.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39102.msg1062180#msg1062180 date=1267432571]
Errr.. that was my point Spidey, it doesn't work. So the two defensive midfielders issue is a bigger issue than how dazzling our fullbacks are.
[/quote]
yeah but why doesn't work with out the obligatory 'lucas is shit' comment? the system sounds so simple
1) we have no genuine (quality) wingers
2) the play we play on the wings moe often then not move inside
3) the fullbacks overlapp and create space and width
4) our TWO holding midfielders fill in the gaps they leave
so basically people want one of the sources of width to remain deep to ensure solidity? so what are the holding midfielders doing?
[/quote]
I think you're overcomplicating things to accommodate/justify attacking fullbacks.
It's simple. We need:
Fullbacks that defend, generally hold the line well and support the wide men as and when. When one pushes forward the other needs to show awareness. When we're pressed we need to be compact and compress the space, which usually requires one or both fullbacks to tuck inside, minimising the space. We just don't do this with both Johnson and Insua/Aurelio in the side.
We need one defensive midfielder, it has to be Masher and he has to be more disciplined in his role and 'sit' more. At the minute, because Lucas is also there, he's given licence to press, which means he's doing the defensive play all over the place, wide, in the opponents half, etc (like people used to question over Momo). With a more complimentary partner in the centre he needs to be told to sit and to protect the back four.
We need quality outwide, particularly on the left.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
Some bad use of statistics on here that needs to be addressed. Using stuff like "we won the 4 games Aqua started" as any kind of serious argument is pure nonsense. The same goes for our record with Johnson in the team. By using limited samples like that you can "prove" anything. It is like saying "it has been raining the last 3 Mondays, which proves that Mondays are really rainy". Please stop it, it is retarded.
Blaming our first half of the season on Johnson is completely unfair. If we are to have any ambition of improving our utterly mediocre football we need players like him - i.e. good ones.
Blaming our first half of the season on Johnson is completely unfair. If we are to have any ambition of improving our utterly mediocre football we need players like him - i.e. good ones.
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39102.msg1061976#msg1061976 date=1267394236]
Personally, I think we need one attacking full-back (Magic) and one ultra-solid full-back (Carra, given the dearth of options) so my suggested solution is that we play Carra at LB. You might remember he was a very good LB for several seasons - I always thought he looked more comfortable there, in fact, than at RB. Our best defence in the past 20 years was the one with Carra at LB and Babbel at RB. Obviously this isn't a long-term solution, but our options at LB are really crap and I can't think of a better solution at the moment.
Can anyone else?
[/quote]
I do see where this is coming from, I have long advocated the need for balance all across the team; ie if Kuyt plays on the right, ideally you'd want a bit more pace and verve on the left; Masher's CM partner should not be just a shit version of him, but someone who can pass and attack and contribute goals; blah blah blah. It's about blends and complimentary players, not a series of similar, one-paced, plodding clones.
It's also why Kuyt is a decent player to have ahead of a very attacking full-back because of his work-rate and ability to track back and cover.
So, yeah, I do see some merit in your argument, but I think the main issue on the left is that Insua is slow and not very good at defending, and while this is exacerbated by the Magic's predilection for attacking and occasional defensive lapses, it would be a major issue *whoever* plays on the right, and I don't think Magic should be "punished" or shifted simply because Insua is poor.
Just buy a good Left-back. Simple. Or actually, not, given the disasters we've had out there since Riise left.
And I also think that Magic's purported lack of defensive ability has been rather exaggerated..
Personally, I think we need one attacking full-back (Magic) and one ultra-solid full-back (Carra, given the dearth of options) so my suggested solution is that we play Carra at LB. You might remember he was a very good LB for several seasons - I always thought he looked more comfortable there, in fact, than at RB. Our best defence in the past 20 years was the one with Carra at LB and Babbel at RB. Obviously this isn't a long-term solution, but our options at LB are really crap and I can't think of a better solution at the moment.
Can anyone else?
[/quote]
I do see where this is coming from, I have long advocated the need for balance all across the team; ie if Kuyt plays on the right, ideally you'd want a bit more pace and verve on the left; Masher's CM partner should not be just a shit version of him, but someone who can pass and attack and contribute goals; blah blah blah. It's about blends and complimentary players, not a series of similar, one-paced, plodding clones.
It's also why Kuyt is a decent player to have ahead of a very attacking full-back because of his work-rate and ability to track back and cover.
So, yeah, I do see some merit in your argument, but I think the main issue on the left is that Insua is slow and not very good at defending, and while this is exacerbated by the Magic's predilection for attacking and occasional defensive lapses, it would be a major issue *whoever* plays on the right, and I don't think Magic should be "punished" or shifted simply because Insua is poor.
Just buy a good Left-back. Simple. Or actually, not, given the disasters we've had out there since Riise left.
And I also think that Magic's purported lack of defensive ability has been rather exaggerated..
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062218#msg1062218 date=1267436762]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[/quote]
This might help. Agger and Skrtel were not particularly on the cheap, both records for Liverpool as far as defenders go, and both relatively unknown. Arbeloa was an average right back really.
I think that list pretty appalling
Josemi Rey Poo
Mauricio Pellegrino Poo
Antonio Barragan Poo
Jack Hobbs Never given a chance
Jan Kromkamp Average to poo
Daniel Agger Liverpool record for defender at time
Gabriel Paletta Poo
Fábio Aurélio Average to Poo but free
Ãlvaro Arbeloa Average
San José On loan who knows?
Emiliano Insúa Maybe, but not on this seasons form
Andrea Dossena Least said
Martin Skrtel Decent, but new record for Defender
Sotirios Kyrgiakos Possibly best value for money
Daniel Ayala Not being given a chance, but good
Philipp Degen Average to poo
Glen Johnson Liverpool record signing
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[/quote]
This might help. Agger and Skrtel were not particularly on the cheap, both records for Liverpool as far as defenders go, and both relatively unknown. Arbeloa was an average right back really.
I think that list pretty appalling
Josemi Rey Poo
Mauricio Pellegrino Poo
Antonio Barragan Poo
Jack Hobbs Never given a chance
Jan Kromkamp Average to poo
Daniel Agger Liverpool record for defender at time
Gabriel Paletta Poo
Fábio Aurélio Average to Poo but free
Ãlvaro Arbeloa Average
San José On loan who knows?
Emiliano Insúa Maybe, but not on this seasons form
Andrea Dossena Least said
Martin Skrtel Decent, but new record for Defender
Sotirios Kyrgiakos Possibly best value for money
Daniel Ayala Not being given a chance, but good
Philipp Degen Average to poo
Glen Johnson Liverpool record signing
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39102.msg1062186#msg1062186 date=1267433568]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39102.msg1062181#msg1062181 date=1267432909]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39102.msg1062180#msg1062180 date=1267432571]
Errr.. that was my point Spidey, it doesn't work. So the two defensive midfielders issue is a bigger issue than how dazzling our fullbacks are.
[/quote]
yeah but why doesn't work with out the obligatory 'lucas is shit' comment? the system sounds so simple
1) we have no genuine (quality) wingers
2) the play we play on the wings moe often then not move inside
3) the fullbacks overlapp and create space and width
4) our TWO holding midfielders fill in the gaps they leave
so basically people want one of the sources of width to remain deep to ensure solidity? so what are the holding midfielders doing?
[/quote]
I think you're overcomplicating things to accommodate/justify attacking fullbacks.
It's simple. We need:
Fullbacks that defend, generally hold the line well and support the wide men as and when. When one pushes forward the other needs to show awareness. When we're pressed we need to be compact and compress the space, which usually requires one or both fullbacks to tuck inside, minimising the space. We just don't do this with both Johnson and Insua/Aurelio in the side.
We need one defensive midfielder, it has to be Masher and he has to be more disciplined in his role and 'sit' more. At the minute, because Lucas is also there, he's given licence to press, which means he's doing the defensive play all over the place, wide, in the opponents half, etc (like people used to question over Momo). With a more complimentary partner in the centre he needs to be told to sit and to protect the back four.
We need quality outwide, particularly on the left.
[/quote]
^^^
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39102.msg1062181#msg1062181 date=1267432909]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39102.msg1062180#msg1062180 date=1267432571]
Errr.. that was my point Spidey, it doesn't work. So the two defensive midfielders issue is a bigger issue than how dazzling our fullbacks are.
[/quote]
yeah but why doesn't work with out the obligatory 'lucas is shit' comment? the system sounds so simple
1) we have no genuine (quality) wingers
2) the play we play on the wings moe often then not move inside
3) the fullbacks overlapp and create space and width
4) our TWO holding midfielders fill in the gaps they leave
so basically people want one of the sources of width to remain deep to ensure solidity? so what are the holding midfielders doing?
[/quote]
I think you're overcomplicating things to accommodate/justify attacking fullbacks.
It's simple. We need:
Fullbacks that defend, generally hold the line well and support the wide men as and when. When one pushes forward the other needs to show awareness. When we're pressed we need to be compact and compress the space, which usually requires one or both fullbacks to tuck inside, minimising the space. We just don't do this with both Johnson and Insua/Aurelio in the side.
We need one defensive midfielder, it has to be Masher and he has to be more disciplined in his role and 'sit' more. At the minute, because Lucas is also there, he's given licence to press, which means he's doing the defensive play all over the place, wide, in the opponents half, etc (like people used to question over Momo). With a more complimentary partner in the centre he needs to be told to sit and to protect the back four.
We need quality outwide, particularly on the left.
[/quote]
^^^
[quote author=iseeredpeople link=topic=39102.msg1062189#msg1062189 date=1267433929]
Some bad use of statistics on here that needs to be addressed. Using stuff like "we won the 4 games Aqua started" as any kind of serious argument is pure nonsense. The same goes for our record with Johnson in the team. By using limited samples like that you can "prove" anything. It is like saying "it has been raining the last 3 Mondays, which proves that Mondays are really rainy". Please stop it, it is retarded.
Blaming our first half of the season on Johnson is completely unfair. If we are to have any ambition of improving our utterly mediocre football we need players like him - i.e. good ones.
[/quote]
fucking hell that's a good post.
Some bad use of statistics on here that needs to be addressed. Using stuff like "we won the 4 games Aqua started" as any kind of serious argument is pure nonsense. The same goes for our record with Johnson in the team. By using limited samples like that you can "prove" anything. It is like saying "it has been raining the last 3 Mondays, which proves that Mondays are really rainy". Please stop it, it is retarded.
Blaming our first half of the season on Johnson is completely unfair. If we are to have any ambition of improving our utterly mediocre football we need players like him - i.e. good ones.
[/quote]
fucking hell that's a good post.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062221#msg1062221 date=1267437090]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062218#msg1062218 date=1267436762]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[/quote]
This might help. Agger and Skrtel were not particularly on the cheap, both records for Liverpool as far as defenders go, and both relatively unknown. Arbeloa was an average right back really.
I think that list pretty appalling
Josemi Rey Poo
Mauricio Pellegrino Poo
Antonio Barragan Poo
Jack Hobbs Never given a chance
Jan Kromkamp Average to poo
Daniel Agger Liverpool record for defender at time
Gabriel Paletta Poo
Fábio Aurélio Average to Poo but free
Ãlvaro Arbeloa Average
San José On loan who knows?
Emiliano Insúa Maybe, but not on this seasons form
Andrea Dossena Least said
Martin Skrtel Decent, but new record for Defender
Sotirios Kyrgiakos Possibly best value for money
Daniel Ayala Not being given a chance, but good
Philipp Degen Average to poo
Glen Johnson Liverpool record signing
[/quote]
I was not praising his ability to sign defenders. Not at all. I was merely pointing out examples of decent defenders that cost under 6mil approx. I'm well aware that for every Arbeloa there is a Josemi etc.
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062218#msg1062218 date=1267436762]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[/quote]
This might help. Agger and Skrtel were not particularly on the cheap, both records for Liverpool as far as defenders go, and both relatively unknown. Arbeloa was an average right back really.
I think that list pretty appalling
Josemi Rey Poo
Mauricio Pellegrino Poo
Antonio Barragan Poo
Jack Hobbs Never given a chance
Jan Kromkamp Average to poo
Daniel Agger Liverpool record for defender at time
Gabriel Paletta Poo
Fábio Aurélio Average to Poo but free
Ãlvaro Arbeloa Average
San José On loan who knows?
Emiliano Insúa Maybe, but not on this seasons form
Andrea Dossena Least said
Martin Skrtel Decent, but new record for Defender
Sotirios Kyrgiakos Possibly best value for money
Daniel Ayala Not being given a chance, but good
Philipp Degen Average to poo
Glen Johnson Liverpool record signing
[/quote]
I was not praising his ability to sign defenders. Not at all. I was merely pointing out examples of decent defenders that cost under 6mil approx. I'm well aware that for every Arbeloa there is a Josemi etc.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062221#msg1062221 date=1267437090]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062218#msg1062218 date=1267436762]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[/quote]
This might help. Agger and Skrtel were not particularly on the cheap, both records for Liverpool as far as defenders go, and both relatively unknown. Arbeloa was an average right back really.
I think that list pretty appalling
Josemi Rey Poo
Mauricio Pellegrino Poo
Antonio Barragan Poo
Jack Hobbs Never given a chance
Jan Kromkamp Average to poo
Daniel Agger Liverpool record for defender at time
Gabriel Paletta Poo
Fábio Aurélio Average to Poo but free
Ãlvaro Arbeloa Average
San José On loan who knows?
Emiliano Insúa Maybe, but not on this seasons form
Andrea Dossena Least said
Martin Skrtel Decent, but new record for Defender
Sotirios Kyrgiakos Possibly best value for money
Daniel Ayala Not being given a chance, but good
Philipp Degen Average to poo
Glen Johnson Liverpool record signing
[/quote]
Lol.
How is Ayala "good" and Arbeloa "average"?
And Barragan "poo", Hobbs "never given a chance", when Hobbs played more games than the spaniard
This should be good.
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062218#msg1062218 date=1267436762]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[/quote]
This might help. Agger and Skrtel were not particularly on the cheap, both records for Liverpool as far as defenders go, and both relatively unknown. Arbeloa was an average right back really.
I think that list pretty appalling
Josemi Rey Poo
Mauricio Pellegrino Poo
Antonio Barragan Poo
Jack Hobbs Never given a chance
Jan Kromkamp Average to poo
Daniel Agger Liverpool record for defender at time
Gabriel Paletta Poo
Fábio Aurélio Average to Poo but free
Ãlvaro Arbeloa Average
San José On loan who knows?
Emiliano Insúa Maybe, but not on this seasons form
Andrea Dossena Least said
Martin Skrtel Decent, but new record for Defender
Sotirios Kyrgiakos Possibly best value for money
Daniel Ayala Not being given a chance, but good
Philipp Degen Average to poo
Glen Johnson Liverpool record signing
[/quote]
Lol.
How is Ayala "good" and Arbeloa "average"?
And Barragan "poo", Hobbs "never given a chance", when Hobbs played more games than the spaniard
This should be good.
[quote author=Mike Hunt link=topic=39102.msg1062253#msg1062253 date=1267440579]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062221#msg1062221 date=1267437090]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062218#msg1062218 date=1267436762]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[/quote]
This might help. Agger and Skrtel were not particularly on the cheap, both records for Liverpool as far as defenders go, and both relatively unknown. Arbeloa was an average right back really.
I think that list pretty appalling
Josemi Rey Poo
Mauricio Pellegrino Poo
Antonio Barragan Poo
Jack Hobbs Never given a chance
Jan Kromkamp Average to poo
Daniel Agger Liverpool record for defender at time
Gabriel Paletta Poo
Fábio Aurélio Average to Poo but free
Ãlvaro Arbeloa Average
San José On loan who knows?
Emiliano Insúa Maybe, but not on this seasons form
Andrea Dossena Least said
Martin Skrtel Decent, but new record for Defender
Sotirios Kyrgiakos Possibly best value for money
Daniel Ayala Not being given a chance, but good
Philipp Degen Average to poo
Glen Johnson Liverpool record signing
[/quote]
Lol.
How is Ayala "good" and Arbeloa "average"?
And Barragan "poo", Hobbs "never given a chance", when Hobbs played more games than the spaniard
This should be good.
[/quote]
Well, it won't be that goodArdja, Mike.
Barragan, never made it anywhere and was lost in the reserves too.
Jack Hobbs on the other hand did pretty well in the reserves and , if my memory is correct was made capatin, he made a couple of appearances and did OK in the first team, then Skrtle arrived, and Jacks Days were numbered.
Ayala and Arbeloa, I have rated Ayala more potentially he is a young lad that has looked very capable in the reserves and had at least one decent game in the prem for us this year, and cost £160,000 . Arbeloa on the other hand was an established player who cost us £2,500,000, and was no more than a decent right back.
Hope that helps, thanks for taking an interest.
regards
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062221#msg1062221 date=1267437090]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062218#msg1062218 date=1267436762]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[/quote]
This might help. Agger and Skrtel were not particularly on the cheap, both records for Liverpool as far as defenders go, and both relatively unknown. Arbeloa was an average right back really.
I think that list pretty appalling
Josemi Rey Poo
Mauricio Pellegrino Poo
Antonio Barragan Poo
Jack Hobbs Never given a chance
Jan Kromkamp Average to poo
Daniel Agger Liverpool record for defender at time
Gabriel Paletta Poo
Fábio Aurélio Average to Poo but free
Ãlvaro Arbeloa Average
San José On loan who knows?
Emiliano Insúa Maybe, but not on this seasons form
Andrea Dossena Least said
Martin Skrtel Decent, but new record for Defender
Sotirios Kyrgiakos Possibly best value for money
Daniel Ayala Not being given a chance, but good
Philipp Degen Average to poo
Glen Johnson Liverpool record signing
[/quote]
Lol.
How is Ayala "good" and Arbeloa "average"?
And Barragan "poo", Hobbs "never given a chance", when Hobbs played more games than the spaniard
This should be good.
[/quote]
Well, it won't be that good
Barragan, never made it anywhere and was lost in the reserves too.
Jack Hobbs on the other hand did pretty well in the reserves and , if my memory is correct was made capatin, he made a couple of appearances and did OK in the first team, then Skrtle arrived, and Jacks Days were numbered.
Ayala and Arbeloa, I have rated Ayala more potentially he is a young lad that has looked very capable in the reserves and had at least one decent game in the prem for us this year, and cost £160,000 . Arbeloa on the other hand was an established player who cost us £2,500,000, and was no more than a decent right back.
Hope that helps, thanks for taking an interest.
regards
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062246#msg1062246 date=1267439512]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062221#msg1062221 date=1267437090]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062218#msg1062218 date=1267436762]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[/quote]
This might help. Agger and Skrtel were not particularly on the cheap, both records for Liverpool as far as defenders go, and both relatively unknown. Arbeloa was an average right back really.
I think that list pretty appalling
Josemi Rey Poo
Mauricio Pellegrino Poo
Antonio Barragan Poo
Jack Hobbs Never given a chance
Jan Kromkamp Average to poo
Daniel Agger Liverpool record for defender at time
Gabriel Paletta Poo
Fábio Aurélio Average to Poo but free
Ãlvaro Arbeloa Average
San José On loan who knows?
Emiliano Insúa Maybe, but not on this seasons form
Andrea Dossena Least said
Martin Skrtel Decent, but new record for Defender
Sotirios Kyrgiakos Possibly best value for money
Daniel Ayala Not being given a chance, but good
Philipp Degen Average to poo
Glen Johnson Liverpool record signing
[/quote]
I was not praising his ability to sign defenders. Not at all. I was merely pointing out examples of decent defenders that cost under 6mil approx. I'm well aware that for every Arbeloa there is a Josemi etc.
[/quote]
I know David, it was more in response to Squiggles post really
regards
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062221#msg1062221 date=1267437090]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062218#msg1062218 date=1267436762]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062187#msg1062187 date=1267433619]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1061998#msg1061998 date=1267394828]
I believe we should buy two new fullbacks and push Johnson up to RW.
RB - Cheapish Arbeloa/Finnan MKII; solid, consistent, injury free, etc.
LB - Strong, quick, can beat a man, compliment Riera, etc.
Rafa has shown he can buy good defenders on the cheap (admittedly not many fullbacks!) but I hope he can find two.
We've been crying out for width and creativity on our attacking flanks for years. Now Johnson is here, I think it would be a crime not to use him. With a limited budget, too, fullbacks generally come cheaper than attacking midfielders, so it makes sense with our budget to concentrate on these positions.
(Ha, should of read the thread first. More appropriate reply coming soon!)
[/quote]
Who were you thinking of?
regards
[/quote]
Arbeloa, Skrtel and Agger perhaps? All arrived for under 6 million or under.
[/quote]
This might help. Agger and Skrtel were not particularly on the cheap, both records for Liverpool as far as defenders go, and both relatively unknown. Arbeloa was an average right back really.
I think that list pretty appalling
Josemi Rey Poo
Mauricio Pellegrino Poo
Antonio Barragan Poo
Jack Hobbs Never given a chance
Jan Kromkamp Average to poo
Daniel Agger Liverpool record for defender at time
Gabriel Paletta Poo
Fábio Aurélio Average to Poo but free
Ãlvaro Arbeloa Average
San José On loan who knows?
Emiliano Insúa Maybe, but not on this seasons form
Andrea Dossena Least said
Martin Skrtel Decent, but new record for Defender
Sotirios Kyrgiakos Possibly best value for money
Daniel Ayala Not being given a chance, but good
Philipp Degen Average to poo
Glen Johnson Liverpool record signing
[/quote]
I was not praising his ability to sign defenders. Not at all. I was merely pointing out examples of decent defenders that cost under 6mil approx. I'm well aware that for every Arbeloa there is a Josemi etc.
[/quote]
I know David, it was more in response to Squiggles post really
regards
Jack Hobbs was given a chance and did not do well at all.
Barragan was not given a chance. They both are pretty shit, but your assessment was inconsistent.
Arbeloa was a very good full back. He's currently a starting full back for the most decorated club in the world, and for a player with no commercial attraction, that's pretty good. He made Messi, one of the best players in the last 20 years look pretty inept the last time we played Barcelona.
Arbeloa at 2.5 million was a steal.
Barragan was not given a chance. They both are pretty shit, but your assessment was inconsistent.
Arbeloa was a very good full back. He's currently a starting full back for the most decorated club in the world, and for a player with no commercial attraction, that's pretty good. He made Messi, one of the best players in the last 20 years look pretty inept the last time we played Barcelona.
Arbeloa at 2.5 million was a steal.
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