Poll When Magic returns...

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39102.msg1062704#msg1062704 date=1267492107]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=39102.msg1062649#msg1062649 date=1267488355]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39102.msg1062545#msg1062545 date=1267479241]
Dreamy, you do realise that Magic is injured and thus unable to play at RB, or anywhere else?

Just checking
[/quote]

Ha ha I mean when he is fit. It seems now that many advocating not playing him at right back as he is a liablity
[/quote]

I don't think he's a liability as a RB, far from it. I believe his defensive lapses are exaggerated. But I think he should be tried at RW, firstly because he can be one of the most devastating players in the Premier League and I'd like to see what he can do there; secondly, because it pushes Dirk into the striking positions where I think he's best, and thirdly because we can hopefully pick up a solid RB fairly cheaply - or even persist with Carragher there and blood in Kelly.
[/quote]

All valid points but if we can replace our 18M RB with a cheap option then we shouldn't have spent 18M on that position in the first place.

 

[Squiggles]

It doesn't matter.

If Johnson suddenly gets moved up the pitch (which he won't, I must stress) it hardly makes him a terrible signing.

 

[Ryan]

If we've learned one lesson from this discussion, it's that we should definitely make ultimate judgements on all of our signings after they've played 20 times for us.

It's only fair on them.

 

[Mamma Mia]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39102.msg1062723#msg1062723 date=1267499411]
If we've learned one lesson from this discussion, it's that we should definitely make ultimate judgements on all of our signings after they've played 20 times for us.

It's only fair on them.
[/quote]

I seem to recall you posting some words of caution when Magic got off to a flyer in his first few games. You predicted this fall from SCM grace didn't you?

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=39102.msg1062731#msg1062731 date=1267510476]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39102.msg1062723#msg1062723 date=1267499411]
If we've learned one lesson from this discussion, it's that we should definitely make ultimate judgements on all of our signings after they've played 20 times for us.

It's only fair on them.
[/quote]

I seem to recall you posting some words of caution when Magic got off to a flyer in his first few games. You predicted this fall from SCM grace didn't you?
[/quote]

Can't really remember, but yes I probably did. I'm light years ahead of my time on here.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=39102.msg1062586#msg1062586 date=1267483042]
Hyypia was on trial at oldham before us, who decided not to pursue him.
[/quote]

sami is one of the greatest ever premiership defenders but is totally underrated as he never seems to make the all time premiership team despite 10 year of flawless service.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062497#msg1062497 date=1267472413]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39102.msg1062475#msg1062475 date=1267468499]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062351#msg1062351 date=1267449526]
Agger is 26 this year, so as far as potential goes he is leaving it a bit late.
I like Agger, but to suggest he is close to the £20m bracket is wrong. I don't mind Skrtel either, but he is pretty limited, and to be honest even among Liverpool fans people are pretty split on how good they are, and a many would rather see a thirty six year old Finn still be here taking a place.


regards

PS did I mention that Agger is from the same Lladro collection as Aurellio, one reason why he ain't in the £20m bracket
[/quote]

Agger's just turned 25-years-old Vlad and as central defenders normally mature and play their best at around 30+ he's somewhat still in the 'talent' bracket.

The Big Finn as you mention yourself first came here as a 26-year-old and where by no means the finished article at that point.

A player of Aggers caliber would demand a transfer in the region of £15-20M should he be sold, I'm absolute certain.
[/quote]

Whoahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, I like a good chuckle KHL. As I said he is a decent defender, and I rate him higher than Skrtel , but the way you big-him-up all the time is fucking daft.

To say a CB reaches their peak at 30 is wildly off the mark too, they should have been at their peak for two years by then, at that point they will start losing their pace, some might get another four years at a decent level, the exceptions like Sami, will get longer.
A made of glass decent defender like Agger is in the £12m-£13m mark, as I said he has not even proved himself with us consistently yet.

Mo. Arbeloa , like Agger, is a decent player, an average full back, he is not a spanking good defender, nor is he fantastic at getting forward, we might have got a little more than we paid for, but the way some are bulling him up is laughable. I don't remember everyone wailing pitilessly when he went.
We paid sensible money,£2,500,000 for him and sold him for a million pounds more in a highly inflated market.

Trust me on all this

regards
[/quote]
Chuckle all you want big man I'm almost 100 percent certain Agger wouldn't leave for anything less than £15M should he be sold. (Baring his contract isn't running down).

He'd be on his way to a club like Real, Barca or AC Milan and they're happily spunking out loads on decent to great defenders - especially the ones with potential to be the very best. As in Aggers case.

You are aware that our defence - especially when Skrtel and Agger are playing together - is by far the youngest compared to the ones in the other topclubs in England? This is not just coincidence that's simply because most top defenders peak at around their thirties. If this wasn't the case and pace was be all end all why on earth would anyone want Sami back? He's got snails-pace for starters but is still 'rocking' in the Bundelsliga it appears?

That's because age has got more or less the same effect on defenders as with good wine.

If your arguing that Agger's injury-record should somewhat hold down his prize then just you have a look at one Mr. Aquilani who's recently been sold for the massive sum of £18M.

PS If you really reckon defenders like Pepe, Garay etc are 'out of Agger's league' you've really lost it Vlad. It's the other way around if anything.

 

[the_khl]

On a sidenote, if the tickling in my right knee is anything to go by, our defense will hit an all time.. ehm.. youngness next Season with 20-year-old Simon Kjaer beeing brought in.

Can someone send these pics to our defensive-coach please?

 

[Fabio]

He's like an octopus

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=39102.msg1062769#msg1062769 date=1267519384]
He's like an octopus
[/quote]

Haha...

He is.




*Who is?

**Am i beeing whooshed?

***Where?

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39102.msg1062757#msg1062757 date=1267518051]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062497#msg1062497 date=1267472413]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39102.msg1062475#msg1062475 date=1267468499]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062351#msg1062351 date=1267449526]
Agger is 26 this year, so as far as potential goes he is leaving it a bit late.
I like Agger, but to suggest he is close to the £20m bracket is wrong. I don't mind Skrtel either, but he is pretty limited, and to be honest even among Liverpool fans people are pretty split on how good they are, and a many would rather see a thirty six year old Finn still be here taking a place.


regards

PS did I mention that Agger is from the same Lladro collection as Aurellio, one reason why he ain't in the £20m bracket
[/quote]

Agger's just turned 25-years-old Vlad and as central defenders normally mature and play their best at around 30+ he's somewhat still in the 'talent' bracket.

The Big Finn as you mention yourself first came here as a 26-year-old and where by no means the finished article at that point.

A player of Aggers caliber would demand a transfer in the region of £15-20M should he be sold, I'm absolute certain.
[/quote]

Whoahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, I like a good chuckle KHL. As I said he is a decent defender, and I rate him higher than Skrtel , but the way you big-him-up all the time is fucking daft.

To say a CB reaches their peak at 30 is wildly off the mark too, they should have been at their peak for two years by then, at that point they will start losing their pace, some might get another four years at a decent level, the exceptions like Sami, will get longer.
A made of glass decent defender like Agger is in the £12m-£13m mark, as I said he has not even proved himself with us consistently yet.

Mo. Arbeloa , like Agger, is a decent player, an average full back, he is not a spanking good defender, nor is he fantastic at getting forward, we might have got a little more than we paid for, but the way some are bulling him up is laughable. I don't remember everyone wailing pitilessly when he went.
We paid sensible money,£2,500,000 for him and sold him for a million pounds more in a highly inflated market.

Trust me on all this

regards
[/quote]
Chuckle all you want big man I'm almost 100 percent certain Agger wouldn't leave for anything less than £15M should he be sold. (Baring his contract isn't running down).

He'd be on his way to a club like Real, Barca or AC Milan and they're happily spunking out loads on decent to great defenders - especially the ones with potential to be the very best. As in Aggers case.

You are aware that our defence - especially when Skrtel and Agger are playing together - is by far the youngest compared to the ones in the other topclubs in England? This is not just coincidence that's simply because most top defenders peak at around their thirties. If this wasn't the case and pace was be all end all why on earth would anyone want Sami back? He's got snails-pace for starters but is still 'rocking' in the Bundelsliga it appears?

That's because age has got more or less the same effect on defenders as with good wine.

If your arguing that Agger's injury-record should somewhat hold down his prize then just you have a look at one Mr. Aquilani who's recently been sold for the massive sum of £18M.

PS If you really reckon defenders like Pepe, Garay etc are 'out of Agger's league' you've really lost it Vlad. It's the other way around if anything.
[/quote]

That is precisely what I am arguing and the reason we did get Aqualani "on the cheap"

regards

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062790#msg1062790 date=1267521107]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39102.msg1062757#msg1062757 date=1267518051]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062497#msg1062497 date=1267472413]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39102.msg1062475#msg1062475 date=1267468499]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062351#msg1062351 date=1267449526]
Agger is 26 this year, so as far as potential goes he is leaving it a bit late.
I like Agger, but to suggest he is close to the £20m bracket is wrong. I don't mind Skrtel either, but he is pretty limited, and to be honest even among Liverpool fans people are pretty split on how good they are, and a many would rather see a thirty six year old Finn still be here taking a place.


regards

PS did I mention that Agger is from the same Lladro collection as Aurellio, one reason why he ain't in the £20m bracket
[/quote]

Agger's just turned 25-years-old Vlad and as central defenders normally mature and play their best at around 30+ he's somewhat still in the 'talent' bracket.

The Big Finn as you mention yourself first came here as a 26-year-old and where by no means the finished article at that point.

A player of Aggers caliber would demand a transfer in the region of £15-20M should he be sold, I'm absolute certain.
[/quote]

Whoahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, I like a good chuckle KHL. As I said he is a decent defender, and I rate him higher than Skrtel , but the way you big-him-up all the time is fucking daft.

To say a CB reaches their peak at 30 is wildly off the mark too, they should have been at their peak for two years by then, at that point they will start losing their pace, some might get another four years at a decent level, the exceptions like Sami, will get longer.
A made of glass decent defender like Agger is in the £12m-£13m mark, as I said he has not even proved himself with us consistently yet.

Mo. Arbeloa , like Agger, is a decent player, an average full back, he is not a spanking good defender, nor is he fantastic at getting forward, we might have got a little more than we paid for, but the way some are bulling him up is laughable. I don't remember everyone wailing pitilessly when he went.
We paid sensible money,£2,500,000 for him and sold him for a million pounds more in a highly inflated market.

Trust me on all this

regards
[/quote]
Chuckle all you want big man I'm almost 100 percent certain Agger wouldn't leave for anything less than £15M should he be sold. (Baring his contract isn't running down).

He'd be on his way to a club like Real, Barca or AC Milan and they're happily spunking out loads on decent to great defenders - especially the ones with potential to be the very best. As in Aggers case.

You are aware that our defence - especially when Skrtel and Agger are playing together - is by far the youngest compared to the ones in the other topclubs in England? This is not just coincidence that's simply because most top defenders peak at around their thirties. If this wasn't the case and pace was be all end all why on earth would anyone want Sami back? He's got snails-pace for starters but is still 'rocking' in the Bundelsliga it appears?

That's because age has got more or less the same effect on defenders as with good wine.

If your arguing that Agger's injury-record should somewhat hold down his prize then just you have a look at one Mr. Aquilani who's recently been sold for the massive sum of £18M.

PS If you really reckon defenders like Pepe, Garay etc are 'out of Agger's league' you've really lost it Vlad. It's the other way around if anything.
[/quote]

That is precisely what I am arguing and the reason we did get Aqualani "on the cheap"

regards
[/quote]

I really don't get that?

 

[Vlads Quiff]

Well he looks the part, strong athletic and plain black boots, I like that in a player

regards

 

[Vlads Quiff]

What makes you think Kjaer is coming anyway?

regards

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=39102.msg1062866#msg1062866 date=1267528745]
What makes you think Kjaer is coming anyway?

regards
[/quote]
He's going to come rather cheap. (£9M due to a sell-on clause in his contract - as in Chelsea, United etc can't outbid us on this one).

He's a boyhood Liverpool-fan. Something he's adapted from his agent whom also happens to be his father.

He's looking up to Agger and feels he can learn a lot from him. He says so whenever he plays alongside him at International-level.

He's more similar in type to Sami than anyone else we've got (apart from Kyrgiakos perhaps). Very strong and composed and very good in the air too. Not Agbonlahor-pacy but fast enough.

I don't know. It's just a hunch mate. And a tickling in me knee.

 

[ILD]

I have taken it for granted now that we are signing Kjaer. I don't know much about him but I'm sold.
KHL will be intolerable though with two Danes at the back for us.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062876#msg1062876 date=1267530528]
I have taken it for granted now that we are signing Kjaer. I don't know much about him but I'm sold.
KHL will be intolerable though with two Danes at the back for us.
[/quote]

At least he won't be biased as to which one's better though..

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=39102.msg1062880#msg1062880 date=1267531260]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062876#msg1062876 date=1267530528]
I have taken it for granted now that we are signing Kjaer. I don't know much about him but I'm sold.
KHL will be intolerable though with two Danes at the back for us.
[/quote]

At least he won't be biased as to which one's better though..
[/quote]
Haha...

 

[Biggus Dickus]

If your knees twinkling well its just got to happen...right?

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Biggus Dickus link=topic=39102.msg1062920#msg1062920 date=1267535666]
If your knees twinkling well its just got to happen...right?
[/quote]
I've got sparkling knees alright.

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39102.msg1062041#msg1062041 date=1267396787]
We just won't play a 4-4-2 very often though (if ever), and for good reason.
[/quote]

I'll bite.

Not disputing the "we won't play it" business, but what's the good reason?

 

[manwithnoname]

If Torres isn't fit, we don't really have anyone who *can* play as the lone striker in a 4231 or whatever, as anyone who has watched Eggnog play in that formation would attest

Therefore, to continue with a formation that you do not have the personnel to play, would appear to be slightly mad

 

[Avmenon]

Why would that would stop Rafa?

 

[DHSC]

[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062876#msg1062876 date=1267530528]
I have taken it for granted now that we are signing Kjaer. I don't know much about him but I'm sold.
KHL will be intolerable though with two Danes at the back for us.
[/quote]

Can you imagine if we sign Bendtner too?

Spunk all around.

 

[drizzt]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39102.msg1061976#msg1061976 date=1267394236]
I like Johnson a lot, but you can't deny the fact we've been much more defensively solid since Carra moved to RB. I think this is simply because a four-man defence with two attacking full-backs is naturally unbalanced. Barca can get away with it, but they play with a different system (and have better footballers).

Personally, I think we need one attacking full-back (Magic) and one ultra-solid full-back (Carra, given the dearth of options) so my suggested solution is that we play Carra at LB. You might remember he was a very good LB for several seasons - I always thought he looked more comfortable there, in fact, than at RB. Our best defence in the past 20 years was the one with Carra at LB and Babbel at RB. Obviously this isn't a long-term solution, but our options at LB are really crap and I can't think of a better solution at the moment.

Can anyone else?
[/quote]

I like Johnson a lot, but you can't deny the fact we've been much more defensively solid since we sat back and Carra was moved out of the center.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=DHSC link=topic=39102.msg1063372#msg1063372 date=1267590875]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39102.msg1062876#msg1062876 date=1267530528]
I have taken it for granted now that we are signing Kjaer. I don't know much about him but I'm sold.
KHL will be intolerable though with two Danes at the back for us.
[/quote]

Can you imagine if we sign Bendtner too?

Spunk all around.
[/quote]

The thing is, about ten years ago there really weren't any potential world class players coming out of the ranks over here, but ever since Agger popped up it seems like we've hit the motherload.

It's still early days but I can see the blueprint of a Danish Nationalteam emulating the one back in 1986.

Agger, Kjaer, Eriksen and Bendtner has all got the potential to be part of such a team and we'd be in a good position to have a few of them on board.

 

[Avmenon]

Hopefully said team never meets Butragueno. ;D

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39102.msg1063441#msg1063441 date=1267611651]
Hopefully said team never meets Butragueno. ;D
[/quote]
Ha ha.. indeed.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=39102.msg1063036#msg1063036 date=1267555518]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39102.msg1062041#msg1062041 date=1267396787]
We just won't play a 4-4-2 very often though (if ever), and for good reason.
[/quote]

I'll bite.

Not disputing the "we won't play it" business, but what's the good reason?
[/quote]

Sorry Single, didn't see this post yesterday.

Basically, teams rarely play 4-4-2 these days due to the space it leaves full-backs (if you stick two 4-4-2 teams out onto a pitch, the only players with nor direct opponent and with space in front of them are the full-backs). It now means that the only player in today's football with space in front of them is one of your centre-backs - in our case Agger, but that's an entirely different discussion. The way the modern game has gone, full-backs are effectively an extra attacker in your side and usually provide far more width than your traditional wide midfielder anyway. So, if you line up 4-4-2 and are playing against say Chelsea who've got Cole and Bosingwa on the flanks, you're likely to get murdered.

Besides, all sides (and I'm taking everyone from Barcelona to Chelsea to United to us) revert to 4-5-1 when they don't have the ball anyway.

Brendan's personnel point is pretty much spot on too. Torres and the team play better with him as the focal point of the attack - it requires less for him to do from a defensive sandpoint, gives him the room to work in, and very importantly - it allows Kuyt and Riera (usually him) to attack the space between full-back and centre-half by cutting in from wide. It's why Kuyt gets so many goals, and why Rafa's been willing to play Maxi (amongst other right-footers) to play on the left.

Basically, it's because it's a system that suits us, and one that's en vogue at the moment.

 

[Avmenon]

Fair point, but teams should have the flexibility to adapt to different formations over games, I feel.

We do play better with 4-5-1, but I really do think we should be able to put out enough quality and employ suffiecient nous to switch it up with 4-4-2 when situation demands it

The fact that we don't is criminally frustrating.