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But what about City? WHAT ABOUT CITY!!!!!

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I want the titles.
Which ones are in question? I'm assuming it is 2008-2016 we are talking about so just two City titles to wipe off the books.

2011/2 United came second
2013/4 We came second

I think I'd rather it stays as unawarded than Fergie/United get another

Even worse if you it extends to the 2017/8 title which would go to Mauren/United!

Be careful what you wish for!
 
Which ones are in question? I'm assuming it is 2008-2016 we are talking about so just two City titles to wipe off the books.

2011/2 United came second
2013/4 We came second

I think I'd rather it stays as unawarded than Fergie/United get another

Even worse if you it extends to the 2017/8 title which would go to Mauren/United!

Be careful what you wish for!
The charges cover 2009 to 2018, so would include the second United one. I think in practice that if the charges are found for those years then they'll be extended to subsequent ones (I suspect the 2018 cut-off is because that's when Der Spiegel published, and when the Premier League began investigating).
The runners up from 2009 onwards (only seasons when City won the League) were:
2011/12 - United
2013/14 - Us
2017/18 - United
2018/19 - Us
2020/21 - United
2021/22 - Us
2022/23 - Arsenal
More shockingly, if Chelsea were to get done for 2016/17 (NB don't know which years are at risk for them), it would be Spurs!
 
The charges cover 2009 to 2018, so would include the second United one. I think in practice that if the charges are found for those years then they'll be extended to subsequent ones (I suspect the 2018 cut-off is because that's when Der Spiegel published, and when the Premier League began investigating).
The runners up from 2009 onwards (only seasons when City won the League) were:
2011/12 - United
2013/14 - Us
2017/18 - United
2018/19 - Us
2020/21 - United
2021/22 - Us
2022/23 - Arsenal
More shockingly, if Chelsea were to get done for 2016/17 (NB don't know which years are at risk for them), it would be Spurs!

I got the impression that aside from the ongoing Etihad sponsorship deal City had cleaned up their act post-Spiegel and so 2018 was the line
 
I got the impression that aside from the ongoing Etihad sponsorship deal City had cleaned up their act post-Spiegel and so 2018 was the line
That sponsorship income could still tip them into £105m+ territory. And even if the numbers weren't high enough for that, there'd still be charges of filing misleading information.
I would also argue that the only reason they got their house in order was a legacy of past cheating, I don't think 2018 is the line, I just think it's just the years that the PL already have under investigation.
 
That sponsorship income could still tip them into £105m+ territory. And even if the numbers weren't high enough for that, there'd still be charges of filing misleading information.
I would also argue that the only reason they got their house in order was a legacy of past cheating, I don't think 2018 is the line, I just think it's just the years that the PL already have under investigation.
Would the post 2018 transgressions rank as serious enough to have a title annulled though? Fine instead more likely?
 
I got the impression that aside from the ongoing Etihad sponsorship deal City had cleaned up their act post-Spiegel and so 2018 was the line
Haven't they signed a sponsorship deal in the last couple of years with, a betting company I think, that really doesn't exist?
 


Well according to the expert it's going to be impossible to prove.

They previously said that City were being uncooperative but to what extent? Was it like, "please show us where you got these funds" and they said "no, we don't need to"?
 
Would the post 2018 transgressions rank as serious enough to have a title annulled though? Fine instead more likely?
Hard to tell. The only precedent we have is Everton which is obviously a different situation. However, in the Everton case, the Premier League wanted a penalty of 6 points for the initial breach and then 1 point per £5m over the limit. It's arguable that they would push for a 6 point penalty for a technical breach of the rules if they can prove false accounting.
Bearing in mind that's a pretty egregious breach. I think if we were dealing with an innocent error then they would probably settle for a slap on the wrists.
 
An angle I have also thought would be interesting if there were ever 'power of the people' would be the players and staff in every team who came second to City launching a lawsuit for loss of earnings, related to bonuses they would get for winning the league.

Is this just weird wishful thinking @Beamrider or do you think that if City were stripped of their titles (even if it were recorded as "no winner") that something like this would be possible? I could imagine this being something fringe players with no honours might be more likely to do than more senior and well known players.
I'd sue them for loss of a mad celebration and a 3 week hangover
 


Well according to the expert it's going to be impossible to prove.

They previously said that City were being uncooperative but to what extent? Was it like, "please show us where you got these funds" and they said "no, we don't need to"?


I was having a nosey on blue moon last night and they were largely waiting on what this guy was going to say on talk sport before starting to worry.

Kind of concerning that he thinks they’ll be ok. Hopefully there’s a real will within the premier league to make something happen here.
 
I was having a nosey on blue moon last night and they were largely waiting on what this guy was going to say on talk sport before starting to worry.

Kind of concerning that he thinks they’ll be ok. Hopefully there’s a real will within the premier league to make something happen here.
I'll have a listen later and let you know what I think, but the Fumers waiting on his opinion has a whiff of the covidiots waiting on Karol Sikora or Carl Henegan's latest pronouncements before going off to the conspiracy sites.
 


Well according to the expert it's going to be impossible to prove.

They previously said that City were being uncooperative but to what extent? Was it like, "please show us where you got these funds" and they said "no, we don't need to"?


He's their ex financial advisor. Hardly impartial. He was always going to say something like this.
 
OK, I've had a listen now. A reasonable discussion I thought. This guy's not an idiot, he knows they're fucked if found guilty, but the fan in him is in denial. He chooses to believe there would have to be a big conspiracy (there wouldn't, just a bit of collusion) so he can stick to believing his boys are innocent, and he's clinging to the hope that the commission will somehow let them get away with it.
I'm reminded of all those Tory ministers who were trotted out to say Boris Johnson wasn't a liar. They knew he was, but they had to support their boy, and they hoped he'd somehow get away with it at the commission. A similar outcome would be nice, and as this guys says (and he's right) "at least" relegation will follow.
I think where he is over-confident is when he talks about the PL having to "prove" their case. The Premier League's rules state that the standard of proof is "balance of probabilities" - this isn't like a criminal case where the standard is "beyond reasonable doubt", even thought the charges are essentially fraud, which would be a criminal offence. I wouldn't be so cocky about it when the bar is set so low.
I also noticed, when checking the burden of proof point, that witnesses can be asked to testify under oath. Which is... interesting.
As for all the bleating and mud-slinging at Masters about how they don't know what the case is about, of course you don't. Because your lot haven't given the PL the information. On that point, he's being disingenuous.
 
@Beamrider

This is a great thread mate - well done.

I think the key in all of this will be that burden of proof and what City will do if they’re found guiltily on “balance of probabilities” - because that bit feels like it’s open to be a bit loose given the unlimited resources they have to challenge this.

My City fan, I think, expects them to ruin the Premier League with litigation if City get a negative outcome - he expects compensation from the Premier League for harming their name, etc

Mind you - he also thinks John Henry is behind it - particularly the leaks published in Der Speigel which he thinks Henry secretly controls.
 
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Which ones are in question? I'm assuming it is 2008-2016 we are talking about so just two City titles to wipe off the books.

2011/2 United came second
2013/4 We came second

I think I'd rather it stays as unawarded than Fergie/United get another

Even worse if you it extends to the 2017/8 title which would go to Mauren/United!

Be careful what you wish for!
Couldn’t a fuck about others. They are rightfully our titles and we’ll get the rest too as they are failing to cooperate.
 
@Beamrider

This is a great thread mate - well done.

I think the key in all of this will be that burden of proof and what City will do if they’re found guiltily on “balance of probabilities” - because that bit feels like it’s open to be a bit loose given the unlimited resources they have to challenge this.

My City fan, I think, expects them to ruin the Premier League with litigation if City get a negative outcome - he expects compensation from the Premier League for harming their name, etc

Mind you - he also thinks John Henry is behind it - particularly the keaks published in Der Speigel which he thinks Henry secretly controls.
If that’s the case then Henry is an even bigger legend than I already thought.
 
Nick Harris seems the most reliable source and he seems to already have ex-city employees giving him the scoop

 
Nick Harris seems the most reliable source and he seems to already have ex-city employees giving him the scoop



I’d love to read more and see the replies - but that would mean signing up to that cesspool.
 
I’d love to read more and see the replies - but that would mean signing up to that cesspool.

There wasn't really a lot. Basically said he called the owners out..so he's no longer welcome.

Said the Brahim Diaz deal was illegal and the powers that be covered it up.

Asked other disgruntled employees to contact him.
 
Look, at the end of the day, I don't understand the financials and the legalities of it all. I'm sure Beamrider has done stellar work, as per, and has nailed all the information. I'm happy to take his word on the ins and outs.

What I do know, however, is how the world works. Sometimes the simplest outcome is most likely. Where there's money there is power, greed and corruption. City have an awful lot of money. The Premier League, at the end of the day, are interested in money and their "brand". The outcome is obvious. Just as it has been with previous "charges" thrown at City.

City will grind everything down with their hotshot team of lawyers to such a point that there will be endless appeals, filibusters and general lack of cooperation. We will be waiting years/decades for any potential meaningful outcome. At which point, what will suit all parties is perhaps some monetary fine, a transfer ban maybe, some sort of suspended punishment. The Premier League can then say they've cracked down on transgressions while lining their coffers, but without bringing their brand into significant disrepute, upsetting the structure of the league, or upsetting one of their golden geese. They will have also avoided a political/diplomatic nightmare between the UK and the Middle East by handing down such a ruling.

I'm very aware that a lot more effort and consideration has gone into Beamrider's posts, but this is what's going to happen. By hook or by crook. The horse bolted decades ago. There will be the odd show of dominance against clubs like Everton and Forest - clubs just the right size of which to make an example. Any bigger and it gets too messy. Any smaller and nobody cares.

City will be fine.
 
I kind of get where you are coming from. Hal. But optics matter for the PL.

Fan power is a big thing. If all fan bases made a stand when playing them. Unfurled banners referring to them as Club 115 (as an example) while doing the poznan shit thing

There may actually be a correct decision.
 
Look, at the end of the day, I don't understand the financials and the legalities of it all. I'm sure Beamrider has done stellar work, as per, and has nailed all the information. I'm happy to take his word on the ins and outs.

What I do know, however, is how the world works. Sometimes the simplest outcome is most likely. Where there's money there is power, greed and corruption. City have an awful lot of money. The Premier League, at the end of the day, are interested in money and their "brand". The outcome is obvious. Just as it has been with previous "charges" thrown at City.

City will grind everything down with their hotshot team of lawyers to such a point that there will be endless appeals, filibusters and general lack of cooperation. We will be waiting years/decades for any potential meaningful outcome. At which point, what will suit all parties is perhaps some monetary fine, a transfer ban maybe, some sort of suspended punishment. The Premier League can then say they've cracked down on transgressions while lining their coffers, but without bringing their brand into significant disrepute, upsetting the structure of the league, or upsetting one of their golden geese. They will have also avoided a political/diplomatic nightmare between the UK and the Middle East by handing down such a ruling.

I'm very aware that a lot more effort and consideration has gone into Beamrider's posts, but this is what's going to happen. By hook or by crook. The horse bolted decades ago. There will be the odd show of dominance against clubs like Everton and Forest - clubs just the right size of which to make an example. Any bigger and it gets too messy. Any smaller and nobody cares.

City will be fine.

This reads like someone who would have “university of life” in their Facebook profile
 
I kind of get where you are coming from. Hal. But optics matter for the PL.

Fan power is a big thing. If all fan bases made a stand when playing them. Unfurled banners referring to them as Club 115 (as an example) while doing the poznan shit thing

There may actually be a correct decision.
I wouldn't bank on it, mate. Plus, nobody would do what you're suggesting. They'll get off with it, there'll be grumbling for a bit, then everyone will shrug their shoulders and get on with it.
 
Look, at the end of the day, I don't understand the financials and the legalities of it all. I'm sure Beamrider has done stellar work, as per, and has nailed all the information. I'm happy to take his word on the ins and outs.

What I do know, however, is how the world works. Sometimes the simplest outcome is most likely. Where there's money there is power, greed and corruption. City have an awful lot of money. The Premier League, at the end of the day, are interested in money and their "brand". The outcome is obvious. Just as it has been with previous "charges" thrown at City.

City will grind everything down with their hotshot team of lawyers to such a point that there will be endless appeals, filibusters and general lack of cooperation. We will be waiting years/decades for any potential meaningful outcome. At which point, what will suit all parties is perhaps some monetary fine, a transfer ban maybe, some sort of suspended punishment. The Premier League can then say they've cracked down on transgressions while lining their coffers, but without bringing their brand into significant disrepute, upsetting the structure of the league, or upsetting one of their golden geese. They will have also avoided a political/diplomatic nightmare between the UK and the Middle East by handing down such a ruling.

I'm very aware that a lot more effort and consideration has gone into Beamrider's posts, but this is what's going to happen. By hook or by crook. The horse bolted decades ago. There will be the odd show of dominance against clubs like Everton and Forest - clubs just the right size of which to make an example. Any bigger and it gets too messy. Any smaller and nobody cares.

City will be fine.

I didn't even have to read to the bottom of this post to click the like button.

I'll believe serious consequences when they're levied and when they hold up under appeal.
 
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