CL Last 16 draw

[ibromurph]

Yeah, I agree. I dont think it was meant in a negative way by the 4th official, and I agree with your post.
I just think in this charged climate that identifying players by their kit number is the safest way without causing any miscommunication, given any language that the officiating team might use.

100%.

UEFA need to train their officials a little better, it seems. Especially in the current climate.

This was the first time such a thing has happened, so it's understandable.

But action, in terms of better education, needs to come from this.

 

[Frogfish]

On this 4th point. It was Webo who objects. And then Demba Ba, who steps in and tries to educate the official on how to speak English.

The last line, whilst being true (are we now being racist? Ha!), I doubt was intended as a slur, simply because he knows he was mic'ed up. This isn't something he whispered, or said once. The man said it 2 or 3 times, not understanding the fuss Webo was making of it.

Yep - I missed that. And Demba Ba seems have imprinted his own understanding of what was said into the debate. I'm not sure (not understanding Romanian, which I'm certain Ba doesn't either), whether the 4th Official said "this" or "the" which could in English be construed as derogatory depending on the emphasis and tone (though maybe not in Romanian). Ba uses his own interpretation to berate the 4th Official who seems totally bemused and doesn't understand what it going on !

I hope we're not being racist but may be racial profiling .. even though it's true Is it not allowed to state the truth now ?

 

[dantes]

On this 4th point. It was Webo who objects. And then Demba Ba, who steps in and tries to educate the official on how to speak English.

The last line, whilst being true (are we now being racist? Ha!), I doubt was intended as a slur, simply because he knows he was mic'ed up. This isn't something he whispered, or said once. The man said it 2 or 3 times, not understanding the fuss Webo was making of it.

FA v Suarez (2011) established in clear terms that everything you just said there is completely irrelevant. Dantes (2011) pointed out with great anger the damage that fucking absurd corrupt ferguson cock blowjobing of a finding would do to solving the problem of racism. Alas, it was what it was. Liverpool fans should only be saying we told you so, and everyone else can go fuck themselves. There's no other response to these incidents than that.

Webo is entitled to "justice". Ban the ref. Job done.

 

[Frogfish]

I don’t see it the same issue, you missed the point. Let’s remove the difference in cultural context, would a fellow white person call another white person white person? Even within a minority in a group of black people and not in my 30yrs of working with in Europe so have to disagree with you there.
...............

Yes. I even gave the example above It would be the obvious clarifier in that situation. Not only would I use it but very likely have done so ! Though I can't state that with absolute certainty.

 

[Halmeister]

I reckon if you plonked a white man in the middle of Nigeria (as Froggy has mentioned) and across the road amongst a group of local black men was another white man, you'd refer to him as the white men.

That said, the official shouldn't have referred to the player by his skin colour. At the very least it's extremely unprofessional and asking for trouble in this current climate. Use his name, squad number, point him out, anything.

However, all of this has wound me up a little bit. I do think there are scenarios where a white person would be singled out and identified for his colour.

But given the nature of the world at the moment, the fact that there are actual racists mixed in with a minority of people who want to be outraged by everything and the virtue signallers, we have created this environment where people are petrified to even say the word "black".

A year or two ago, I worked with two lads, both called Lee. One white, one black. Another lad I worked with was telling me a story about "Lee", and he got flustered when I asked which one he meant. He began to describe his height, his job, where exactly he worked, everything on order to avoid saying "black". Is this the world we want to live in?

Obviously, things aren't as simple as I'm making out. Some sensitivity is required at certain times. But the ideal scenario, for me at least, is for skin colour to be seen as irrelevant as hair colour or eye colour. It's just another physical feature. Not malice, no intent, no judgement.

However, such is the way of the world now, there is a part of me that fears getting flamed for saying this, so let me caveat with...

The official was wrong. I'm mixed race (though you might not realise it to look at me), and I have experienced racist abuse. So there, you can't cancel me or sack me or whatever.

 

[Frogfish]

I reckon if you plonked a white man in the middle of Nigeria (as Froggy has mentioned) and across the road amongst a group of local black men was another white man, you'd refer to him as the white men.

That said, the official shouldn't have referred to the player by his skin colour. At the very least it's extremely unprofessional and asking for trouble in this current climate. Use his name, squad number, point him out, anything.

However, all of this has wound me up a little bit. I do think there are scenarios where a white person would be singled out and identified for his colour.

But given the nature of the world at the moment, the fact that there are actual racists mixed in with a minority of people who want to be outraged by everything and the virtue signallers, we have created this environment where people are petrified to even say the word "black".

A year or two ago, I worked with two lads, both called Lee. One white, one black. Another lad I worked with was telling me a story about "Lee", and he got flustered when I asked which one he meant. He began to describe his height, his job, where exactly he worked, everything on order to avoid saying "black". Is this the world we want to live in?

Obviously, things aren't as simple as I'm making out. Some sensitivity is required at certain times. But the ideal scenario, for me at least, is for skin colour to be seen as irrelevant as hair colour or eye colour. It's just another physical feature. Not malice, no intent, no judgement.

However, such is the way of the world now, there is a part of me that fears getting flamed for saying this, so let me caveat with...

The official was wrong. I'm mixed race (though you might not realise it to look at me), and I have experienced racist abuse. So there, you can't cancel me or sack me or whatever.

In a nutshell. Amen.

 

[rubans]

Yes. I even gave the example above It would be the obvious clarifier in that situation. Not only would I use it but very likely have done so ! Though I can't state that with absolute certainty.

As I said that’s your own experience and as mentioned I gave my own including the player’s own right to be offended even of mindful of difference in culture.

May not agree but then that’s the player’s own prerogative and right to be so.

In this example, as mentioned already, Uefa surely have protocol and 4th official at very least was just plain lazy, just use his name or number for fck sake, its on the back of the shirt. When a referee books a player, does write down black player in his little book? No, he would write the number and presumably name from the back of the shirt so 4th official should follow the same process. Presumably this 4th official is a full blown tier 1 uefa referee normally due to his role so no excuses, should know better.

Agree to disagree and move on...

 

[gkmacca]

Ba bars black sheep as well as any wools, yes sir, yes sir, knee bends all.

 

[rurikbird]

Switching gears for a sec...

 

[gkmacca]

Are they doing the draw via zoom? If so, surely at least one of the blazers will go on mute and resort to a wank after the first hour or so, like that New Yorker bloke did.

 

[dantes]

I reckon if you plonked a white man in the middle of Nigeria (as Froggy has mentioned) and across the road amongst a group of local black men was another white man, you'd refer to him as the white men.

That said, the official shouldn't have referred to the player by his skin colour. At the very least it's extremely unprofessional and asking for trouble in this current climate. Use his name, squad number, point him out, anything.

However, all of this has wound me up a little bit. I do think there are scenarios where a white person would be singled out and identified for his colour.

But given the nature of the world at the moment, the fact that there are actual racists mixed in with a minority of people who want to be outraged by everything and the virtue signallers, we have created this environment where people are petrified to even say the word "black".

A year or two ago, I worked with two lads, both called Lee. One white, one black. Another lad I worked with was telling me a story about "Lee", and he got flustered when I asked which one he meant. He began to describe his height, his job, where exactly he worked, everything on order to avoid saying "black". Is this the world we want to live in?

Obviously, things aren't as simple as I'm making out. Some sensitivity is required at certain times. But the ideal scenario, for me at least, is for skin colour to be seen as irrelevant as hair colour or eye colour. It's just another physical feature. Not malice, no intent, no judgement.

However, such is the way of the world now, there is a part of me that fears getting flamed for saying this, so let me caveat with...

The official was wrong. I'm mixed race (though you might not realise it to look at me), and I have experienced racist abuse. So there, you can't cancel me or sack me or whatever.

The alternative world would have seen Gerrard lift the title for us just under a decade ago. They stole that world from us. The idea that they can now reclaim it, after what their stupidity cost us? Fuck that right off. We ain't through with this new world yet, not by a long shot. Let them suffer.

 

[dantes]

Need I remind you they called Dalglish a racist when he tried to hold on to that better world?

 

[rubans]

Need I remind you they called Dalglish a racist when he tried to hold on to that better world?

Surely you are still living in that alternate world so it’s really not an issue for you is it?

 

[Hansern]

I dont think the 4th official meant anything by the words he chose last night, and I dont think it was in his intention to make a racist slur.
It was unfortunate, and poorly chosen words in a explosively charged situation that we are in these days.
But with the reaction that followed, the investigation, the reaction from Demba Ba and Webo and even the Turkish president. The 4th official is probably finished regardless of what is uncovered from UEFAs own investigation. How do you come back from that?

So potentially one man has his career ruined for speaking in his native language and describing a situation in probably similar fashion to what they have done in several games before this one. I'm guessing its nigh on impossible to hear this when the crowds are in the stadium.
UEFA really needs to adress this. The communication has to be made easier for the officiating team, and a guideline to how you adress the players and staff.
Just so that something that probably wasnt meant offensive, could be interpreted that way.

And although we still have a big fight on our hands to kick racism out of the game completely, there has to be drawn a line somewhere about wheter or not everything is said or done to offend.
I dont think it helps in regards to kicking it out of football and society all together, that some are scrutinizing everything that is said and done to see if there is something that can offend someone. It takes away the focus of the real fight in my opinion.
Not that I'm saying thats what happened here. Webo was clearly upset and must have heard and interpreted this in a way that was not okay.

 

[Markeh]

UEFA should just apologise and instruct officials never to use racial descriptors when referring to someone. It’s multinational competition with too many languages, nuances and sensitivities for there not to be guidance on this.

 

[dantes]

Surely you are still living in that alternate world so it’s really not an issue for you is it?

I live in all the worlds. It is John Barnes who lives in that one that, although I would have thought he'd have got fed up of trying to educate these woke idiots by now. But soon he will, I estimate a half dozen more "racial" incidents and he will snap, then start taking the fake knee and virtue signalling out of pure spite. I for one will love to see it.

 

[Modo]

I live in all the worlds. It is John Barnes who lives in that one that, although I would have thought he'd have got fed up of trying to educate these woke idiots by now. But soon he will, I estimate a half dozen more "racial" incidents and he will snap, then start taking the fake knee and virtue signalling out of pure spite. I for one will love to see it.

As a black person, I can definitely understand where Barnes is coming from.
A lot of what he says makes sense, but he definitely disappointed me regarding the Silva incident.

To be completely honest, I think this whole thing is exaggerated. The ref should just have apologised and the players should have accepted his apology and carried on.

It's great that Demba Ba and the rest tried to educate the ref, hopefully he got the jist of it. But this is not comparable to crowds doing monkey noises or whatever.

What was exactly gained from them walking off the pitch? One ref learned that he shouldn't refer to someone as black in a professional environment?
Great.
What about if the stadium was full with paying fans?

 

[tombrown]

Thing is, if the word for black in Romanian was "black".. and he said, it was the black one, Webo and then Ba, would not have been offended. They would have just been contesting the red card.

It's the fact he said "Negru", which sounds like "Negro/Nigger" and thus is interpreted as such, that has caused this confusion.

The official wasn't being racist in his own mind. No one is THAT stupid to do so, when they know they a mic'ed up. But he did say a word, that sounded racist so I understand the backlash.

Did you listen to what Demba Ba says in that clip? He is not complaining about the word in Romanian, he is complaining that he used the adjective "balck" to identify him.

And to those saying, if it was Africa and you were the only white person around then "white" would be OK are firstly using exactly the argument people use when they counter "Black Lives Matter" with "All lives matter", and, secondly, you are ignoring the obvious that in most top tier football teams now there is seldom such thing as one black player among a load of white players, so the comparison is not relevant.

 

[ibromurph]

I reckon if you plonked a white man in the middle of Nigeria (as Froggy has mentioned) and across the road amongst a group of local black men was another white man, you'd refer to him as the white men.

That said, the official shouldn't have referred to the player by his skin colour. At the very least it's extremely unprofessional and asking for trouble in this current climate. Use his name, squad number, point him out, anything.

However, all of this has wound me up a little bit. I do think there are scenarios where a white person would be singled out and identified for his colour.

But given the nature of the world at the moment, the fact that there are actual racists mixed in with a minority of people who want to be outraged by everything and the virtue signallers, we have created this environment where people are petrified to even say the word "black".

A year or two ago, I worked with two lads, both called Lee. One white, one black. Another lad I worked with was telling me a story about "Lee", and he got flustered when I asked which one he meant. He began to describe his height, his job, where exactly he worked, everything on order to avoid saying "black". Is this the world we want to live in?

Obviously, things aren't as simple as I'm making out. Some sensitivity is required at certain times. But the ideal scenario, for me at least, is for skin colour to be seen as irrelevant as hair colour or eye colour. It's just another physical feature. Not malice, no intent, no judgement.

However, such is the way of the world now, there is a part of me that fears getting flamed for saying this, so let me caveat with...

The official was wrong. I'm mixed race (though you might not realise it to look at me), and I have experienced racist abuse. So there, you can't cancel me or sack me or whatever.

As a Nigerian, I can tell you for a fact that we'd refer to the skin colour and without fear of racism accusations. In fact, a common phrase for white people in Nigeria does refer to their pale skin. But that's the privilege Nigerians get living in their own land; and largely because we haven't had a history of oppressing white people in Nigeria, so no one is sensitive about it.

In the West, that's clearly different. And black people haven't ever been compensated for it (like for example the Jewish community were). So thus, what black people get is apologies and cancel culture. To be honest, it's pretty much the ONE privilege that black people have over white people in the West; the "race card" privilege when it comes to words (and the "penis" conversation). Is it fair that a black man can speak about race more freely than a white man without being accused of racism (unless you're Wiley)? No. But white people have traditionally held their own "race card" privilege in other areas of Western society; such as jobs, housing, loans, wealth etc.

Now I'm not one to care much for words, and unintentional or even casual racism. But some people do, and a lot. Some black people in the West do so, because it's the only thing they have that they can easily prove; it's easy to prove someone's words are racist; it's much harder to prove someone's action (denying of a loan/job/house/opportunity) as racist. True racists are people who act in a racist, bigoted, biased manner but navigate the words (unless they slip up unintentionally).

Thing is, we can all use racist words, without being racist. If you call me a black twat in a fit of anger. Should I be more concerned with the fact you called me black or a twat? Should I be saying you're racist because you should have just called me a twat? I think it's all about intention. The word "nigger" and "negro" is well known in *English/American culture* to be offensive and racist terminology, so to use it, would be to intentionally try to offend. Anyone born there, using that, racist or not, deserves the backlash coming to them if they do. But that's not the same in other European cultures.

Most black people really care about actions which are racist more than words anyway. Cancel culture is a white liberal thing, probably stemming from white liberal guilt.

I do find it a bit funny though that white conservative folk complain about fairness in terms of words, and how "what if a group of black men said X, Y and Z about a white man, it's not considered racist and that's not fair".. well yeah, duh, sure.. like I said, it's the one privilege a black person has in the West; that we can talk colour more freely than white people without fear of accused racism. Because, y'know, of all that unpaid, slavery that took place not too long ago.

Trust me, most black people would swap that one privilege over words if it meant they had better opportunities in other areas of society, and didn't HAVE to do things such as Google "what is the racism statistics in Spain/China/Liverpool/Leeds", every time I want to go on holiday/abroad/to a game.

 

[dantes]

As black person, I can definitely understand where Barnes is coming from.
A lot of what he says makes sense, but he definitely disappointed me regarding the whole Silva incident.

To be completely honest, I think this whole thing is exaggerated. The ref should just have apologised and the players should have accepted his apology and carried on.

It's great that Demba Ba and the rest tried to educate the ref, hopefully he got the jist of it. But this is not comparable to crowds doing monkey noises or whatever.

What was exactly gained from them walking off the pitch? One ref learned that he shouldn't refer to someone as black in professional environment?
Great.
What about if the stadium was full with paying fans?

And the crowd doing monkey noises is not comparable to the racist discrimination existing in the institutions, corporations and other aspects of society. So when those institutions then point to the monkey chants, then start using them to lecture all fans about racism, it's hilariously insane, and you end up with millwall fans correctly booing them for the utter and probably just as racist as they always have been cunts that they are.

 

[Halmeister]

As a Nigerian, I can tell you for a fact that we'd refer to the skin colour and without fear of racism accusations. In fact, a common phrase for white people in Nigeria does refer to their pale skin. But that's the privilege Nigerians get living in their own land; and largely because we haven't had a history of oppressing white people in Nigeria, so no one is sensitive about it.

In the West, that's clearly different. And black people haven't ever been compensated for it (like for example the Jewish community were). So thus, what black people get is apologies and cancel culture. To be honest, it's pretty much the ONE privilege that black people have over white people in the West; the "race card" privilege when it comes to words (and the "penis" conversation). Is it fair that a black man can speak about race more freely than a white man without being accused of racism (unless you're Wiley)? No. But white people have traditionally held their own "race card" privilege in other areas of Western society; such as jobs, housing, loans, wealth etc.

Now I'm not one to care much for words, and unintentional or even casual racism. But some people do, and a lot. Some black people in the West do so, because it's the only thing they have that they can easily prove; it's easy to prove someone's words are racist; it's much harder to prove someone's action (denying of a loan/job/house/opportunity) as racist. True racists are people who act in a racist, bigoted, biased manner but navigate the words (unless they slip up unintentionally).

Thing is, we can all use racist words, without being racist. If you call me a black twat in a fit of anger. Should I be more concerned with the fact you called me black or a twat? Should I be saying you're racist because you should have just called me a twat? I think it's all about intention. The word "nigger" and "negro" is well known in *English/American culture* to be offensive and racist terminology, so to use it, would be to intentionally try to offend. Anyone born there, using that, racist or not, deserves the backlash coming to them if they do. But that's not the same in other European cultures.

Most black people really care about actions which are racist more than words anyway. Cancel culture is a white liberal thing, probably stemming from white liberal guilt.

I do find it a bit funny though that white conservative folk complain about fairness in terms of words, and how "what if a group of black men said X, Y and Z about a white man, it's not considered racist and that's not fair".. well yeah, duh, sure.. like I said, it's the one privilege a black person has in the West; that we can talk colour more freely than white people without fear of accused racism. Because, y'know, of all that unpaid, slavery that took place not too long ago.

Trust me, most black people would swap that one privilege over words if it meant they had better opportunities in other areas of society, and didn't HAVE to do things such as Google "what is the racism statistics in Spain/China/Liverpool/Leeds", every time I want to go on holiday/abroad/to a game.

All interesting points. I want to give it the considered response it deserves, but unfortunately I'm in work. If I remember later on, I'd love to reply.

 

[Modo]

And the crowd doing monkey noises is not comparable to the racist discrimination existing in the institutions, corporations and other aspects of society. So when those institutions then point to the monkey chants, then start using them to lecture all fans about racism, it's hilariously insane, and you end up with millwall fans correctly booing them for the utter and probably just as racist as they always have been cunts that they are.

That's true.

 

[dantes]

As a Nigerian, I can tell you for a fact that we'd refer to the skin colour and without fear of racism accusations. In fact, a common phrase for white people in Nigeria does refer to their pale skin. But that's the privilege Nigerians get living in their own land; and largely because we haven't had a history of oppressing white people in Nigeria, so no one is sensitive about it.

In the West, that's clearly different. And black people haven't ever been compensated for it (like for example the Jewish community were). So thus, what black people get is apologies and cancel culture. To be honest, it's pretty much the ONE privilege that black people have over white people in the West; the "race card" privilege when it comes to words (and the "penis" conversation). Is it fair that a black man can speak about race more freely than a white man without being accused of racism (unless you're Wiley)? No. But white people have traditionally held their own "race card" privilege in other areas of Western society; such as jobs, housing, loans, wealth etc.

Now I'm not one to care much for words, and unintentional or even casual racism. But some people do, and a lot. Some black people in the West do so, because it's the only thing they have that they can easily prove; it's easy to prove someone's words are racist; it's much harder to prove someone's action (denying of a loan/job/house/opportunity) as racist. True racists are people who act in a racist, bigoted, biased manner but navigate the words (unless they slip up unintentionally).

Thing is, we can all use racist words, without being racist. If you call me a black twat in a fit of anger. Should I be more concerned with the fact you called me black or a twat? Should I be saying you're racist because you should have just called me a twat? I think it's all about intention. The word "nigger" and "negro" is well known in *English/American culture* to be offensive and racist terminology, so to use it, would be to intentionally try to offend. Anyone born there, using that, racist or not, deserves the backlash coming to them if they do. But that's not the same in other European cultures.

Most black people really care about actions which are racist more than words anyway. Cancel culture is a white liberal thing, probably stemming from white liberal guilt.

I do find it a bit funny though that white conservative folk complain about fairness in terms of words, and how "what if a group of black men said X, Y and Z about a white man, it's not considered racist and that's not fair".. well yeah, duh, sure.. like I said, it's the one privilege a black person has in the West; that we can talk colour more freely than white people without fear of accused racism. Because, y'know, of all that unpaid, slavery that took place not too long ago.

Trust me, most black people would swap that one privilege over words if it meant they had better opportunities in other areas of society, and didn't HAVE to do things such as Google "what is the racism statistics in Spain/China/Liverpool/Leeds", every time I want to go on holiday/abroad/to a game.

This is how intelligence works. Don't use it again, cheers.

 

[rubans]

And the crowd doing monkey noises is not comparable to the racist discrimination existing in the institutions, corporations and other aspects of society. So when those institutions then point to the monkey chants, then start using them to lecture all fans about racism, it's hilariously insane, and you end up with millwall fans correctly booing them for the utter and probably just as racist as they always have been cunts that they are.

So those same Millwall fans let themselves down yesterday for clapping for QPR players who knelt before them after scoring embarrassed themselves by contradicting their stance from few days earlier?

 

[Woland]

It's not like he had a number on his shirt or anything is it?

 

[dantes]

So those same Millwall fans let themselves down yesterday for clapping for QPR players who knelt before them after scoring embarrassed themselves by contradicting their stance from few days earlier?

No, they fell in line so as not to receive stadium bans. Which I love to see. Small steps like that bringing us closer and closer to the world I so want to see everyone live in before the end of my days.

 

[peterhague]

Did you listen to what Demba Ba says in that clip? He is not complaining about the word in Romanian, he is complaining that he used the adjective "balck" to identify him.

And to those saying, if it was Africa and you were the only white person around then "white" would be OK are firstly using exactly the argument people use when they counter "Black Lives Matter" with "All lives matter", and, secondly, you are ignoring the obvious that in most top tier football teams now there is seldom such thing as one black player among a load of white players, so the comparison is not relevant.

Yeah, but was he the black one? I'm not sure why else he'd have used the phrase except to distinguish the one from the others. Unless he was being deliberately racist. In which case you'd think he'd use a genuinely offensive term.

So if he was the only black one then it's equivalent to a black guy picking out the one white guy.

Except insofar as any kind of reference to black people is just a more sensitive issue. But then, only sententious cunts want to deliberately make trouble for people out of that messy situation.

 

[dantes]

It's not like he had a number on his shirt or anything is it?

I presume he didn't. All the coaching staff are all dressed in the same way, in PE teacher outfits, all sat on the same bench. The "3rd one from the left" is probably the only other way to have instantly distinguished him, but then you'd be asking the referee to count which is far beyond the skills they are employed to carry out.

 

[Woland]

Oh shit I didn't know it was a coach. I'll shut up

 

[dantes]

Yes, the red card must have been for something abusive he screamed at the 4th official after some decision, then that official grassed him up to the ref, the ref jogged over and asked who it was, and the rest is history.