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England's Top Tackler

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[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=44935.msg1314848#msg1314848 date=1302694440]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314846#msg1314846 date=1302694057]
A Liverpool player makes the top in a particular statistic and 'fans' queue up to rubbish the stat and him in particular as it doesn't tally with their perception of the player.

I'll say it and I'll say it again, he wins more tackles than any other DM and his pass completion rate is also very high. That indicates he wins the ball and he keeps it. Masher was never top tackler when he was here, and his passing also left a lot to be desired.

Even under Roy, Lucas was a consistent performer. It is the nature of the DM role to be almost invisible. That role is not about killer passes or 60 yard diaganol Hollywood balls. cf Claude Makalele, Didier Deschamps.
[/quote]

Masher's pass completion stats were every bit as good as Lucas'. He was consistently amongst the highest in the league. Yet you seem to think Masher's passing was poor. Perhaps the stats don't tell the full story?
[/quote]

What was Masher's passing completion rate? Lucas is high 80's I believe. Mashers passing was exposed in the Barcelona team that's why he hardly plays. Lucas wouldn't have that problem in my opinion. Lucas can take the ball in any position and shift it first time to a red shirt. It's why he plays for Brazil a higher ranked team than Argentina. Rafa, Hodgson, Kenny, Commoli all rate him. Don't you think there's a reason for that? Go tell Kenny the stats don't tell the whole story and Lucas is really rubbish.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314846#msg1314846 date=1302694057]
A Liverpool player makes the top in a particular statistic and 'fans' queue up to rubbish the stat and him in particular as it doesn't tally with their perception of the player.

I'll say it and I'll say it again, he wins more tackles than any other DM and his pass completion rate is also very high. That indicates he wins the ball and he keeps it. Masher was never top tackler when he was here, and his passing also left a lot to be desired.

Even under Roy, Lucas was a consistent performer. It is the nature of the DM role to be almost invisible. That role is not about killer passes or 60 yard diaganol Hollywood balls. cf Claude Makalele, Didier Deschamps.
[/quote]

I'm not queuing up to rubbish his stats. I've used those stats to stick up for him in debates with work colleagues. I like Lucas and rate him, just don't think he was as good as Masher as a DM and not convinced he can be our first choice DM next season. Would you trust him and Raul in there together for example? Do we need a more effective destroyer so we can allow the advanced midfielder the freedom to express himself?

As for Masher, didn't he come second in the opta stats for passing in his final season?

I think Masher and Lucas are a different type of player but in a head to head as a DM, Mash was better.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314846#msg1314846 date=1302694057]
A Liverpool player makes the top in a particular statistic and 'fans' queue up to rubbish the stat and him in particular as it doesn't tally with their perception of the player.

I'll say it and I'll say it again, he wins more tackles than any other DM and his pass completion rate is also very high. That indicates he wins the ball and he keeps it. Masher was never top tackler when he was here, and his passing also left a lot to be desired.

Even under Roy, Lucas was a consistent performer. It is the nature of the DM role to be almost invisible. That role is not about killer passes or 60 yard diaganol Hollywood balls. cf Claude Makalele, Didier Deschamps.
[/quote]

Well, you are obviously reading the stats wrong then. He makes the most tackles but his win rate is the worst of the five players listed. Saying Lucas is the best tackler based on these stats is like saying whoever takes the most shots is the best shooter. Other players in that top-5 are from Blackpool, Bolton, West Ham and Fulham, wonder why there are no players from the top teams?
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=44935.msg1314856#msg1314856 date=1302695433]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314846#msg1314846 date=1302694057]
A Liverpool player makes the top in a particular statistic and 'fans' queue up to rubbish the stat and him in particular as it doesn't tally with their perception of the player.

I'll say it and I'll say it again, he wins more tackles than any other DM and his pass completion rate is also very high. That indicates he wins the ball and he keeps it. Masher was never top tackler when he was here, and his passing also left a lot to be desired.

Even under Roy, Lucas was a consistent performer. It is the nature of the DM role to be almost invisible. That role is not about killer passes or 60 yard diaganol Hollywood balls. cf Claude Makalele, Didier Deschamps.
[/quote]

I'm not queuing up to rubbish his stats. I've used those stats to stick up for him in debates with work colleagues. I like Lucas and rate him, just don't think he was as good as Masher as a DM and not convinced he can be our first choice DM next season. Would you trust him and Raul in there together for example? Do we need a more effective destroyer so we can allow the advanced midfielder the freedom to express himself?

As for Masher, didn't he come second in the opta stats for passing in his final season?

I think Masher and Lucas are a different type of player but in a head to head as a DM, Mash was better.
[/quote]

I'd trust Lucas with any midfield player. He's played alongside them all and most of all he WANTS to play for us and wants to help improve us and wont go on fucking strike to get a move despite barracking from a section of fans and Purslow's attempts to get him out. He's thoroughly earned his contract and if all players showed his level of commitment, character and selflessness we'd be doing a lot better than we were over the last 18 months. Lucas would never have floundered at West Ham.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314853#msg1314853 date=1302695004]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=44935.msg1314848#msg1314848 date=1302694440]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314846#msg1314846 date=1302694057]
A Liverpool player makes the top in a particular statistic and 'fans' queue up to rubbish the stat and him in particular as it doesn't tally with their perception of the player.

I'll say it and I'll say it again, he wins more tackles than any other DM and his pass completion rate is also very high. That indicates he wins the ball and he keeps it. Masher was never top tackler when he was here, and his passing also left a lot to be desired.

Even under Roy, Lucas was a consistent performer. It is the nature of the DM role to be almost invisible. That role is not about killer passes or 60 yard diaganol Hollywood balls. cf Claude Makalele, Didier Deschamps.
[/quote]

Masher's pass completion stats were every bit as good as Lucas'. He was consistently amongst the highest in the league. Yet you seem to think Masher's passing was poor. Perhaps the stats don't tell the full story?
[/quote]

What was Masher's passing completion rate? Lucas is high 80's I believe. Mashers passing was exposed in the Barcelona team that's why he hardly plays. Lucas wouldn't have that problem in my opinion. Lucas can take the ball in any position and shift it first time to a red shirt. It's why he plays for Brazil a higher ranked team than Argentina. Rafa, Hodgson, Kenny, Commoli all rate him. Don't you think there's a reason for that? Go tell Kenny the stats don't tell the whole story and Lucas is really rubbish.
[/quote]

KK, I like Lucas but Masher was clearly a better DM. Also, Masher's passing has not been exposed at Barca. His passing isn't a problem. I think that has been debated to death in other threads. He doesn't play that much for Barca as they don't actually need a DM and certainly don't need to deploy a specialist DM when they also have Busquets. Yaya left and they filled the void in midfield with Masher, because they could and it completed their squad once again. Masher's talent is not in question there. Barca play with an ethos where all their players have a desire to win the ball back and spring board another attack. Many opponents relinquish possession to them and getting rid is the only option the have when faced with wave after wave of Barca attack. Watch Barca and observe how good they are as a team to win the ball back. Playing with two DM isn't needed, buying Masher was greedy and we lost out on a world class DM.

The question is now whether we can cope with Lucas as our main DM next season or do we need a more specialist DM?? I want Lucas to stay but not 100% convinced he can be number one in that position for us.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314861#msg1314861 date=1302695984]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=44935.msg1314856#msg1314856 date=1302695433]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314846#msg1314846 date=1302694057]
A Liverpool player makes the top in a particular statistic and 'fans' queue up to rubbish the stat and him in particular as it doesn't tally with their perception of the player.

I'll say it and I'll say it again, he wins more tackles than any other DM and his pass completion rate is also very high. That indicates he wins the ball and he keeps it. Masher was never top tackler when he was here, and his passing also left a lot to be desired.

Even under Roy, Lucas was a consistent performer. It is the nature of the DM role to be almost invisible. That role is not about killer passes or 60 yard diaganol Hollywood balls. cf Claude Makalele, Didier Deschamps.
[/quote]

I'm not queuing up to rubbish his stats. I've used those stats to stick up for him in debates with work colleagues. I like Lucas and rate him, just don't think he was as good as Masher as a DM and not convinced he can be our first choice DM next season. Would you trust him and Raul in there together for example? Do we need a more effective destroyer so we can allow the advanced midfielder the freedom to express himself?

As for Masher, didn't he come second in the opta stats for passing in his final season?

I think Masher and Lucas are a different type of player but in a head to head as a DM, Mash was better.
[/quote]

I'd trust Lucas with any midfield player. He's played alongside them all and most of all he WANTS to play for us and wants to help improve us and wont go on fucking strike to get a move despite barracking from a section of fans and Purslow's attempts to get him out. He's thoroughly earned his contract and if all players showed his level of commitment, character and selflessness we'd be doing a lot better than we were over the last 18 months. Lucas would never have floundered at West Ham.
[/quote]

I know Masher fucked us over with his move to Barca and it pissed me off but I can still see he was a good player for us.

KK you need to relax and notice I'm not having a go at Lucas, not questioning his character or his commitment. Plus I think he deserved his contract. You are a bit ott in your defence for him when in fact i'm barely criticising him, if i'm criticising him at all.

I'm questioning whether he should be first choice DM next season. I've read on various sites that Stevie can't play CM anymore and leaves Lucas too exposed. We we're over ran in a lot of away games this season, Wigan, Blackpool, Newcastle being three off the top of my head. I'm not 100% convinced that Lucas plus an advanced midfielder will work. I would have more confident in Masher plus one in there as Masher had the attributes to be an effective DM. He is gone so it's probably pointless talking about him.

All we can hope is Lucas continues to improve and if he cements his place as first choice DM (which he is at the mo) then fair play. The summer will be interesting and I can see us going for another DM to share the workload with Lucas.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314853#msg1314853 date=1302695004]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=44935.msg1314848#msg1314848 date=1302694440]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314846#msg1314846 date=1302694057]
A Liverpool player makes the top in a particular statistic and 'fans' queue up to rubbish the stat and him in particular as it doesn't tally with their perception of the player.

I'll say it and I'll say it again, he wins more tackles than any other DM and his pass completion rate is also very high. That indicates he wins the ball and he keeps it. Masher was never top tackler when he was here, and his passing also left a lot to be desired.

Even under Roy, Lucas was a consistent performer. It is the nature of the DM role to be almost invisible. That role is not about killer passes or 60 yard diaganol Hollywood balls. cf Claude Makalele, Didier Deschamps.
[/quote]

Masher's pass completion stats were every bit as good as Lucas'. He was consistently amongst the highest in the league. Yet you seem to think Masher's passing was poor. Perhaps the stats don't tell the full story?
[/quote]

What was Masher's passing completion rate? Lucas is high 80's I believe. Mashers passing was exposed in the Barcelona team that's why he hardly plays. Lucas wouldn't have that problem in my opinion. Lucas can take the ball in any position and shift it first time to a red shirt. It's why he plays for Brazil a higher ranked team than Argentina. Rafa, Hodgson, Kenny, Commoli all rate him. Don't you think there's a reason for that? Go tell Kenny the stats don't tell the whole story and Lucas is really rubbish.
[/quote]

All I'm saying is that the stas can't be looked at in isolation. You've proved that with your damning assessment of Masher's passing. He averaged in the high 80s too, and I believe as high as 90 one season. Where does that leave your assessment?

You are demonstrating precisely the same prejudice that you accused the forum of.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=44935.msg1314844#msg1314844 date=1302694000]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=44935.msg1314839#msg1314839 date=1302693822]
[quote author=themn link=topic=44935.msg1314829#msg1314829 date=1302693272]
Last year, Masher, along with Pepe was one of our best players.

You are talking doo-doo, Fox.
[/quote]

put beautifully ;D

agree to disagree, never liked Masher
[/quote]

I would have chosen another word but the *shit* option was taken.
[/quote]

Sorry.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=44935.msg1314844#msg1314844 date=1302694000]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=44935.msg1314839#msg1314839 date=1302693822]
[quote author=themn link=topic=44935.msg1314829#msg1314829 date=1302693272]
Last year, Masher, along with Pepe was one of our best players.

You are talking doo-doo, Fox.
[/quote]

put beautifully ;D

agree to disagree, never liked Masher
[/quote]

I would have chosen another word but the *shit* option was taken.
[/quote]

ha, you can duplicate there is no rule on not doing it
 
[quote author=refugee link=topic=44935.msg1314888#msg1314888 date=1302697331]
[quote author=themn link=topic=44935.msg1314844#msg1314844 date=1302694000]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=44935.msg1314839#msg1314839 date=1302693822]
[quote author=themn link=topic=44935.msg1314829#msg1314829 date=1302693272]
Last year, Masher, along with Pepe was one of our best players.

You are talking doo-doo, Fox.
[/quote]

put beautifully ;D

agree to disagree, never liked Masher
[/quote]

I would have chosen another word but the *shit* option was taken.
[/quote]

Sorry.
[/quote]

Don't apologise. I laughed my head off when I read it.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44935.msg1314679#msg1314679 date=1302680959]
Lucas Leiva has made more tackles in the Barclays Premier League than any other player this season.

Eight challenges against Manchester City took the Brazilian's total to 139 for the 2010-11 campaign, according to Opta stats.

That's an average of a tackle every 16.7 minutes.

Lucas has played 41 games for Liverpool this term - more than any other player except Martin Skrtel (43) and Pepe Reina (44).

Last month the club rewarded his fine form with a new long-term contract.
[/quote]

Lucas is by no means the best defensive midfielder in the league but he is improving in leaps and bounds, thats a fact. That he is putting in the tackles is great, he is supposed to. However, he needs to stop giving away silly fouls in dangerous areas and improve the pace of his passing. He still gets caught in possession. At least he is passing the ball forward more often and contributing to attacking play which is a plus

What is his pass completion rate?
 
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=44935.msg1314938#msg1314938 date=1302700843]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44935.msg1314679#msg1314679 date=1302680959]
Lucas Leiva has made more tackles in the Barclays Premier League than any other player this season.

Eight challenges against Manchester City took the Brazilian's total to 139 for the 2010-11 campaign, according to Opta stats.

That's an average of a tackle every 16.7 minutes.

Lucas has played 41 games for Liverpool this term - more than any other player except Martin Skrtel (43) and Pepe Reina (44).

Last month the club rewarded his fine form with a new long-term contract.
[/quote]

Lucas is by no means the best defensive midfielder in the league but he is improving in leaps and bounds, thats a fact. That he is putting in the tackles is great, he is supposed to. However, he needs to stop giving away silly fouls in dangerous areas and improve the pace of his passing. He still gets caught in possession. At least he is passing the ball forward more often and contributing to attacking play which is a plus

What is his pass completion rate?
[/quote]

But as I stated earlier in the thread, he hasnt been giving those freekicks in dangerous areas away in recent times. It seems its another area of his game that people are ignoring.

As the saying goes "if you have a reputation for getting up early in the morning, you can lie in bed all day"
 
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=44935.msg1314938#msg1314938 date=1302700843]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44935.msg1314679#msg1314679 date=1302680959]
Lucas Leiva has made more tackles in the Barclays Premier League than any other player this season.

Eight challenges against Manchester City took the Brazilian's total to 139 for the 2010-11 campaign, according to Opta stats.

That's an average of a tackle every 16.7 minutes.

Lucas has played 41 games for Liverpool this term - more than any other player except Martin Skrtel (43) and Pepe Reina (44).

Last month the club rewarded his fine form with a new long-term contract.
[/quote]

Lucas is by no means the best defensive midfielder in the league but he is improving in leaps and bounds, thats a fact. That he is putting in the tackles is great, he is supposed to. However, he needs to stop giving away silly fouls in dangerous areas and improve the pace of his passing. He still gets caught in possession. At least he is passing the ball forward more often and contributing to attacking play which is a plus

What is his pass completion rate?
[/quote]

Agreed.

And it's actually very good (about 82% I believe), but I'm unsure as to what percentage could be called a forward pass which seems to be the argument against any stat involving Lucas; "What good does it actually do for the team?".
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44935.msg1314975#msg1314975 date=1302705515]
Jack were you listening to news talk last night?
[/quote]

No I wasnt Ross. Enlighten me
 
Because I had never heard that phrase before last night, possibly monday, when it was used on off the ball
 
[quote author=Fallon link=topic=44935.msg1314980#msg1314980 date=1302705987]
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=44935.msg1314938#msg1314938 date=1302700843]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44935.msg1314679#msg1314679 date=1302680959]
Lucas Leiva has made more tackles in the Barclays Premier League than any other player this season.

Eight challenges against Manchester City took the Brazilian's total to 139 for the 2010-11 campaign, according to Opta stats.

That's an average of a tackle every 16.7 minutes.

Lucas has played 41 games for Liverpool this term - more than any other player except Martin Skrtel (43) and Pepe Reina (44).

Last month the club rewarded his fine form with a new long-term contract.
[/quote]

Lucas is by no means the best defensive midfielder in the league but he is improving in leaps and bounds, thats a fact. That he is putting in the tackles is great, he is supposed to. However, he needs to stop giving away silly fouls in dangerous areas and improve the pace of his passing. He still gets caught in possession. At least he is passing the ball forward more often and contributing to attacking play which is a plus

What is his pass completion rate?
[/quote]

Agreed.

And it's actually very good (about 82% I believe), but I'm unsure as to what percentage could be called a forward pass which seems to be the argument against any stat involving Lucas; "What good does it actually do for the team?".
[/quote]

I accept it may be a rhetorical question but surely you cannot be serious? Do you not think that keeping possession is important in the midfield? Have you ever played football? Not rhetorical
 
To sumarise then
Lucas has stats for being the most prolific tackler in the prem.
It does not mean he is a good tackler, in fact most of the time he is a shite tackler.
Lucas has improved this season, yes he has, but where he came from was a pretty lowly place and he should be no more than a squad player.
Some people a little foolishly think that it is reasonable to compare Lucas with Mascherano
Some people have caught the Levia virus from YNWA.

regards
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=44935.msg1314877#msg1314877 date=1302696749]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314861#msg1314861 date=1302695984]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=44935.msg1314856#msg1314856 date=1302695433]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1314846#msg1314846 date=1302694057]
A Liverpool player makes the top in a particular statistic and 'fans' queue up to rubbish the stat and him in particular as it doesn't tally with their perception of the player.

I'll say it and I'll say it again, he wins more tackles than any other DM and his pass completion rate is also very high. That indicates he wins the ball and he keeps it. Masher was never top tackler when he was here, and his passing also left a lot to be desired.

Even under Roy, Lucas was a consistent performer. It is the nature of the DM role to be almost invisible. That role is not about killer passes or 60 yard diaganol Hollywood balls. cf Claude Makalele, Didier Deschamps.
[/quote]

I'm not queuing up to rubbish his stats. I've used those stats to stick up for him in debates with work colleagues. I like Lucas and rate him, just don't think he was as good as Masher as a DM and not convinced he can be our first choice DM next season. Would you trust him and Raul in there together for example? Do we need a more effective destroyer so we can allow the advanced midfielder the freedom to express himself?

As for Masher, didn't he come second in the opta stats for passing in his final season?

I think Masher and Lucas are a different type of player but in a head to head as a DM, Mash was better.
[/quote]

I'd trust Lucas with any midfield player. He's played alongside them all and most of all he WANTS to play for us and wants to help improve us and wont go on fucking strike to get a move despite barracking from a section of fans and Purslow's attempts to get him out. He's thoroughly earned his contract and if all players showed his level of commitment, character and selflessness we'd be doing a lot better than we were over the last 18 months. Lucas would never have floundered at West Ham.
[/quote]

I know Masher fucked us over with his move to Barca and it pissed me off but I can still see he was a good player for us.

KK you need to relax and notice I'm not having a go at Lucas, not questioning his character or his commitment. Plus I think he deserved his contract. You are a bit ott in your defence for him when in fact i'm barely criticising him, if i'm criticising him at all.

I'm questioning whether he should be first choice DM next season. I've read on various sites that Stevie can't play CM anymore and leaves Lucas too exposed. We we're over ran in a lot of away games this season, Wigan, Blackpool, Newcastle being three off the top of my head. I'm not 100% convinced that Lucas plus an advanced midfielder will work. I would have more confident in Masher plus one in there as Masher had the attributes to be an effective DM. He is gone so it's probably pointless talking about him.

All we can hope is Lucas continues to improve and if he cements his place as first choice DM (which he is at the mo) then fair play. The summer will be interesting and I can see us going for another DM to share the workload with Lucas.
[/quote]

I am relaxed mate, believe it or not and a lot of my remarks were not necessarily directed at you, but the narrative of other posters that Lucas isn't worthy of the shirt is plain wrong. You're right Lucas is a young ever improving player who has improved season by season and is now a current Brazil international who does his job efficiently and more effectively than pretty much most DM's in the league. If we get someone better, he wont come cheap.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=44935.msg1314927#msg1314927 date=1302700066]
Masher is 1000000 times the player Lucas is or ever will be.
[/quote]

What a shame then that he refused to play for us and disrespected the shirt and the club. Masher can fuck right off. 1000000 times.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44935.msg1315029#msg1315029 date=1302708530]
Because I had never heard that phrase before last night, possibly monday, when it was used on off the ball
[/quote]

Im amazed Ross. I thought it was an Irish one.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44935.msg1315062#msg1315062 date=1302710113]
[quote author=Fallon link=topic=44935.msg1314980#msg1314980 date=1302705987]
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=44935.msg1314938#msg1314938 date=1302700843]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44935.msg1314679#msg1314679 date=1302680959]
Lucas Leiva has made more tackles in the Barclays Premier League than any other player this season.

Eight challenges against Manchester City took the Brazilian's total to 139 for the 2010-11 campaign, according to Opta stats.

That's an average of a tackle every 16.7 minutes.

Lucas has played 41 games for Liverpool this term - more than any other player except Martin Skrtel (43) and Pepe Reina (44).

Last month the club rewarded his fine form with a new long-term contract.
[/quote]

Lucas is by no means the best defensive midfielder in the league but he is improving in leaps and bounds, thats a fact. That he is putting in the tackles is great, he is supposed to. However, he needs to stop giving away silly fouls in dangerous areas and improve the pace of his passing. He still gets caught in possession. At least he is passing the ball forward more often and contributing to attacking play which is a plus

What is his pass completion rate?
[/quote]

Agreed.

And it's actually very good (about 82% I believe), but I'm unsure as to what percentage could be called a forward pass which seems to be the argument against any stat involving Lucas; "What good does it actually do for the team?".
[/quote]

I accept it may be a rhetorical question but surely you cannot be serious? Do you not think that keeping possession is important in the midfield? Have you ever played football? Not rhetorical
[/quote]

Didn't say it was my argument did I? I would have thought the quotation marks might have given it away.
 
I predict that Lucas will some day have his Dirk moment.

That point when, suddenly, all Liverpool fans talk as if they've always appreciated what he brings to us.
 
I'm afraid I don't agree. I'm not really sure Deadly's had a moment like that, but either way I don't think Lucas will.
 
Much as I hate mascherano (and of course, like Lucas) even I'd admit Mascherano's a better player.

Still, Lucas is a good tackler. And I've said this for a while - while the rest of you were (trying to) ridicule me. Unlike masher, he doesn't need to go to ground to make a fucking tackle. He's got a canny ability to win the ball back by nicking it off a toe, or intercepting. That's to be admired regardless of what your opinion of him is.

Some people prefer the all-action eye-bulging theatrics of a Mascherano, or a Spearing for example. I'm not sold on it at all.
 
Someone mentioned a littler earlier that Lucas is not the sliding, bone crunching tackler that Mascher was and this is exactly right. Mascher would go in for thumping challenges - win more than he lost but give away plenty of free's. Lucas just puts a foot in to touch the ball away. The number of times the player dives without any contact is exceptional and I somtimes wonder if Refs haven't got Lucas on the "cheap foul" list before the game starts.


All that said, Mascher was by some way a better player; his passing was never as good as Lucas but it wasn't as bad as some try to remember it. He got in trouble when he tried to go forward with a defence splitting pass but otherwise kept possession.


Also, just for the comments on who the other top tacklers are; Chelsea don't have one cause Essien and Lampard have been injured so much, Mikel has been in and out of the team and Ramirez can't tackle. The mancs don't have one cause all their players do it - Carric, Fletcher, Rooney; they all go back and tackle. Arsenal aren't in there cause none of them go in for the tackle.

Lucas is in there cause he's the only one (apart from Poulsen..... so, still the only one) who does the tackling. Ming rarely gets involved, Stevie has been injured or guilty of leaving it to Lucas. Spearing hasn't been in the team enough. The number of times that Lucas has been left to face the oncoming hordes on his own is huge this season and the main reason, IMO, that he's in the top tacklers brigade.
 
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