[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44935.msg1315371#msg1315371 date=1302764458]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44935.msg1315355#msg1315355 date=1302753293]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=44935.msg1315348#msg1315348 date=1302751565]
Someone mentioned a littler earlier that Lucas is not the sliding, bone crunching tackler that Mascher was and this is exactly right. Mascher would go in for thumping challenges - win more than he lost but give away plenty of free's. Lucas just puts a foot in to touch the ball away. The number of times the player dives without any contact is exceptional and I somtimes wonder if Refs haven't got Lucas on the "cheap foul" list before the game starts.
All that said, Mascher was by some way a better player; his passing was never as good as Lucas but it wasn't as bad as some try to remember it. He got in trouble when he tried to go forward with a defence splitting pass but otherwise kept possession.
Also, just for the comments on who the other top tacklers are; Chelsea don't have one cause Essien and Lampard have been injured so much, Mikel has been in and out of the team and Ramirez can't tackle. The mancs don't have one cause all their players do it - Carric, Fletcher, Rooney; they all go back and tackle. Arsenal aren't in there cause none of them go in for the tackle.
Lucas is in there cause he's the only one (apart from Poulsen..... so, still the only one) who does the tackling. Ming rarely gets involved, Stevie has been injured or guilty of leaving it to Lucas. Spearing hasn't been in the team enough. The number of times that Lucas has been left to face the oncoming hordes on his own is huge this season and the main reason, IMO, that he's in the top tacklers brigade.
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Of course. It couldn't actually be that he's any good at it. No way. It's all those other reasons.
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ryan, why is it that you think lucas is anything other than average?
he has no exceptional pace, power, passing ability, crossing ability, goal scoring ability, awareness, vison. so why on earth do you take exception to people calling lucas average? he is an average performer in a currently decididly average team.
I do get why you take exception to people calling him shit, he isn't shit.
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Spidey, I've been through this too many times before to start again. In this case I was simply suggesting that because facts and stats show he's a good tackler, that he might actually be one. I'm sure you've noticed but I've been banging the 'Lucas can atckle' drum for quite some time now, and don't need to reinforce that opinion simply because somebody's pulled out some stats to show I was right all along.
Besides, as your opinions have demonstrated over the years (Babel & Mascherano = good, Didi Hamman & Lucas = bad) it's quite obvious you value the simple, identifiable and generic assets in footballers; pace, tackling, aggression.
Whilst I have an appreciation for those, I also feel the more subtle elements; reading the play, setting tempo, finding space, touch, technique, etc of the game are - whilst less appreciated - invaluable.
Your list above of antiquated values a player must possess (why would a holding midfielder need "crossing ability" for fucks sake?) is anathema to me I'm afraid, so this discussion is going to get us nowhere. If you applied that list of 'must-haves' to everyone, then the footballign world would never have seen a Jamie Carragher, a Didier Deschamps, a Alan Hansen, etc etc.
Move on Spidey.