Who let Trevor Brooking in here? 😉
England's Top Tackler
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[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44935.msg1355624#msg1355624 date=1309103328]
Good point, but if you only counted the tackles he made in those 5 months he wouldn't be nearly as high in the table, so it cuts both ways.
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Very true. Think my problem is I'm too defensive of Lucas. He gets a lot of undeserved stick as he's been a model professional for us and and been instrumental in some victories.
Good point, but if you only counted the tackles he made in those 5 months he wouldn't be nearly as high in the table, so it cuts both ways.
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Very true. Think my problem is I'm too defensive of Lucas. He gets a lot of undeserved stick as he's been a model professional for us and and been instrumental in some victories.
Debates too often get needlessly polarised on here (probably on the Internet generally, though I wouldn't know as I don't go on other forums). Lucas is a decent player whose attitude, on and off the field, is first rate and who never deserved the more raucous criticism he got. IMO legitimate questions remain about whether he is good enough to be a first team regular in a side with genuine title ambitions, but I would be quite happy to keep him as a squaddie.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44935.msg1355618#msg1355618 date=1309102897]
Fabio - I don't think the assumption is as limited as that, but in any case I do remember the lad making a fair number of such tackles (and a fair few of those resulting in dangerous free-kicks against us). The stats themselves suggest that he did - 111 fair tackles out of 172 means 61 unfair ones, a pretty high proportion.
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Not to continue the debate meaninglessly JJ but that's not actually what the stat means is it?
172 tackles with 111 fair tackles completed simply means that 61 tackles weren't completed fairly. That could mean the tackle resulted in a foul or that it simply wasn't successful in dispossessing the opponent of the ball.
Maybe I'm reading the stat wrong but I don't think it makes a distinction between the tackle not being successful or the tackle resulting in a foul.
Fabio - I don't think the assumption is as limited as that, but in any case I do remember the lad making a fair number of such tackles (and a fair few of those resulting in dangerous free-kicks against us). The stats themselves suggest that he did - 111 fair tackles out of 172 means 61 unfair ones, a pretty high proportion.
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Not to continue the debate meaninglessly JJ but that's not actually what the stat means is it?
172 tackles with 111 fair tackles completed simply means that 61 tackles weren't completed fairly. That could mean the tackle resulted in a foul or that it simply wasn't successful in dispossessing the opponent of the ball.
Maybe I'm reading the stat wrong but I don't think it makes a distinction between the tackle not being successful or the tackle resulting in a foul.
Fair point, but I don't think it ultimately detracts from the one I was making, though I don't necessarily expect you to agree. 😉
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44935.msg1356131#msg1356131 date=1309192557]
Fair point, but I don't think it ultimately detracts from the one I was making, though I don't necessarily expect you to agree. 😉
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Ha! Now you've got me double guessing the point you were actually making. :-\
But, if you were suggesting that quite a high proportion of Lucas' tackles resulted in fouls I would think that the number was more likely about 30 and therefore not a very high proportion.
Either way, I know you like Spearing and, if I had to choose a player for the DM role in a given match I'd probably go for him too. If I had to choose a midfielder for a season I'd take Lucas every time.
Fair point, but I don't think it ultimately detracts from the one I was making, though I don't necessarily expect you to agree. 😉
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Ha! Now you've got me double guessing the point you were actually making. :-\
But, if you were suggesting that quite a high proportion of Lucas' tackles resulted in fouls I would think that the number was more likely about 30 and therefore not a very high proportion.
Either way, I know you like Spearing and, if I had to choose a player for the DM role in a given match I'd probably go for him too. If I had to choose a midfielder for a season I'd take Lucas every time.
What I had in mind was the fundamental point was that 61 unsuccessful tackles out of 172 *is* a high tally, whether those tackles were actually fouls or simply not completed.
Current evidence does suggest Lucas has more in his locker than Spearing in terms of constructive play. Some of Lucas' passing in the second half of the season was massively improved and made a real contribution to the renaissance under Kenny. I'd need to see Spearing play as often as Lucas has before being absolutely sure though.
Current evidence does suggest Lucas has more in his locker than Spearing in terms of constructive play. Some of Lucas' passing in the second half of the season was massively improved and made a real contribution to the renaissance under Kenny. I'd need to see Spearing play as often as Lucas has before being absolutely sure though.
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44935.msg1355606#msg1355606 date=1309101877]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44935.msg1355565#msg1355565 date=1309098635]
It does make sense. A player with Sami's or the Kaiser's sense of position usually won't have to hurry to get to where the ball is, and will rely on jockeying his opponent rather than tackling him for much of the time.
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Is jockeying not a form of tackling then?
What with the dispossessing of a ball and whatnot
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I think to settle this debate we need to see who got the highest number of 'jockies' last season and compare accordingly.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44935.msg1355565#msg1355565 date=1309098635]
It does make sense. A player with Sami's or the Kaiser's sense of position usually won't have to hurry to get to where the ball is, and will rely on jockeying his opponent rather than tackling him for much of the time.
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Is jockeying not a form of tackling then?
What with the dispossessing of a ball and whatnot
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I think to settle this debate we need to see who got the highest number of 'jockies' last season and compare accordingly.
Yes, but we need to distinguish between Lester Piggotts (successful jockeys) and Ishmael Van Burens (unsuccessful jockeys).
The good thing about Lucas is topics like this. Stats getting rolled out and people building a case for him, and I can feel myself getting dragged in but then I remember that he's played over 100 games for us, I was at most of them, and I'm struggling to remember him ever doing anything good.
Lovely stuff.
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44935.msg1358087#msg1358087 date=1309474708]
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[/quote]
I don't rate you.
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[/quote]
I don't rate you.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44935.msg1358151#msg1358151 date=1309478787]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44935.msg1358087#msg1358087 date=1309474708]
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[/quote]
I don't rate you.
[/quote]
Well that's a cretinous comment if ever i've heard one.....
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44935.msg1358087#msg1358087 date=1309474708]
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[/quote]
I don't rate you.
[/quote]
Well that's a cretinous comment if ever i've heard one.....
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44935.msg1358087#msg1358087 date=1309474708]
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[/quote]
Nitpicking.com
You not going to say Carra hoofs the ball too much? Gerrard takes shit set pieces? Suarez is wasteful in front of goal?
What's next, Lucas breathes too much?
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[/quote]
Nitpicking.com
You not going to say Carra hoofs the ball too much? Gerrard takes shit set pieces? Suarez is wasteful in front of goal?
What's next, Lucas breathes too much?
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44935.msg1358087#msg1358087 date=1309474708]
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[/quote]
Would people be saying the same thing about Spearing (him being a better natural dm than Lucas) if he had long blonde hair and a pretty face instead of an ugly bulldog like face and a shaved head?
I ask this because to me he's not and never has been a natural dm. Yes, he tracks back well and stays on his man, but that doesn't equal a defensive midfielder.
Does his demeanor cloud peoples' judgement?
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[/quote]
Would people be saying the same thing about Spearing (him being a better natural dm than Lucas) if he had long blonde hair and a pretty face instead of an ugly bulldog like face and a shaved head?
I ask this because to me he's not and never has been a natural dm. Yes, he tracks back well and stays on his man, but that doesn't equal a defensive midfielder.
Does his demeanor cloud peoples' judgement?
[quote author=juniormember link=topic=44935.msg1358171#msg1358171 date=1309487646]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44935.msg1358087#msg1358087 date=1309474708]
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[/quote]
Would people be saying the same thing about Spearing (him being a better natural dm than Lucas) if he had long blonde hair and a pretty face instead of an ugly bulldog like face and a shaved head?
I ask this because to me he's not and never has been a natural dm. Yes, he tracks back well and stays on his man, but that doesn't equal a defensive midfielder.
Does his demeanor cloud peoples' judgement?
[/quote]
No. For one thing he's a good enough player defensively to have played CB and done well there for the ressies, despite being a short@rse. For another, when he's had his chance for the first team he's looked - to some of us at any rate - more at home than Lucas in the sheer trench warfare of midfield, in the ways described pretty specifically (and accurately IMO) by robinhood above. Lucas' passing is better but, specifically as a midfield terrier biting opposition legs and getting the ball off them (which I'd have thought was the DM's job description) before giving it to better ball players, Spearing's a better bet.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44935.msg1358087#msg1358087 date=1309474708]
I don't rate Lucas.
He may have improved. Some stats *may* suggest some stuff. But the bottom line is, he fouls too much when he shouldn't, often in dangerous areas, he doesn't have the natural *way* of a defensive midfielder; he doesn't get into feet quickly; he's not crafty; he's not tough at all... Spearing is much better equipped for this stuff, and Lucas is not all that great going forward either. With Gerrard, Meireles, Aquilani coming back, probably Henderson is better too... he doesn't obviously have a first team role as far as I can see.
He'll probably keep playing a lot for the first half of the season, but I bet by next year he isn't a first team guarantee anymore.
[/quote]
Would people be saying the same thing about Spearing (him being a better natural dm than Lucas) if he had long blonde hair and a pretty face instead of an ugly bulldog like face and a shaved head?
I ask this because to me he's not and never has been a natural dm. Yes, he tracks back well and stays on his man, but that doesn't equal a defensive midfielder.
Does his demeanor cloud peoples' judgement?
[/quote]
No. For one thing he's a good enough player defensively to have played CB and done well there for the ressies, despite being a short@rse. For another, when he's had his chance for the first team he's looked - to some of us at any rate - more at home than Lucas in the sheer trench warfare of midfield, in the ways described pretty specifically (and accurately IMO) by robinhood above. Lucas' passing is better but, specifically as a midfield terrier biting opposition legs and getting the ball off them (which I'd have thought was the DM's job description) before giving it to better ball players, Spearing's a better bet.
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