Ged

[Oncy]

[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45549.msg1342073#msg1342073 date=1307018630]
It's uncanny how both men are so similar, both deserving credit for similar achievements, and criticism for similar actions.

Rafa was clearly the superior manager, but it's a fitting comparison.
[/quote]Yeah. I think Houllier gets far too little credit for what he did here.
I only think back on the good times, he won us trophies.
Now we move on.

 

[cochyn]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45549.msg1342075#msg1342075 date=1307018731]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45549.msg1342073#msg1342073 date=1307018630]
It's uncanny how both men are so similar, both deserving credit for similar achievements, and criticism for similar actions.

Rafa was clearly the superior manager, but it's a fitting comparison.
[/quote]Yeah. I think Houllier gets far too little credit for what he did here.
I only think back on the good times, he won us trophies.
Now we move on.
[/quote]

amen to that!

 

[Oncy]

For the record, this is the team he inherited



Goalkeepers

1 David James
19 Brad Friedel
26 Jorgen Nielsen

Defenders

Mark Wright
3 Bjorn Tore Kvarme
6 Phil Babb
20 Stig Inge Bjornebye
21 Dominic Matteo
25 Neil Ruddock
29 Stephen Wright

Midfielders

Paul Ince
Øyvind Leonhardsen
Steve Mc Manaman - Class but left
Steven Gerrard - Class
Jason McAteer
Steve Harkness
Michael Thomas
Phil Charnock
11 Jamie Redknapp
15 Patrik Berger - Class
19 Mark Kennedy
23 Jamie Carragher
24 Danny Murphy - Good
25 David Thompson
33 Leyton Maxwell

Forwards

9 Robbie Fowler - Class
10 Michael Owen - Class
13 Karl Heinze Riedle
27 Haukur Ingi Gudnason


And this is what he left

Goalkeepers

1 Jurek Dudek
22 Chris Kirkland
29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders

Carl Medjani
John Welsh
2 Stephane Henchoz - Class
3 Steve Finnan - Class
4 Sami Hyypia - Class
15 Salif Diao
21 Djimi Traore
23 Jamie Carragher - Class
36 Jon Otsemobor
Midfielders

11 Vladimir Smicer - Good
13 Danny Murphy - Good
16 Dietmar Hamann - Class
17 Steven Gerrard - Class
18 John Arne Riise - Class
25 Igor Biscan
28 Bruno Cheyrou
Forwards

5 Milan Baros
7 Harry Kewell - Hmmmm
8 Emile Heskey
9 El Hadji Diouf
10 Michael Owen - Class
20 Anthony Le Tallec
24 Florent Sinama Pongolle - Good
26 Richie Partridge
Djibril Cisse - Good

What a difference in 5 years.

 

[Le Chacal]

I often said Ged and Rafa's reigns were quite similar.
I wanted both to be sacked way before they were.

Having said that, I keep better and fond memories of Houiller's era. He was a gentleman unlike his machiavelian successor

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=45549.msg1342089#msg1342089 date=1307020167]
I often said Ged and Rafa's reigns were quite similar.
I wanted both to be sacked way before they were.

Having said that, I keep better and fond memories of Houiller's era. He was a gentleman unlike his machiavelian successor
[/quote]I seem to remember really hating the interviews Houllier gave near the end. I also hated his 'He eats the grass' bullshit and being mortified that he said it. I was pissed off with him by the end and the simple fact was it was clear he had no way of turning things round, so he had to go. He was still a good man and for a while i thought he would crack it. I think Kewells injury against Everton the season he signed for us was a very cruel blow.

 

[themn]

I bet Modo was pissed off when Ged recovered from his heart problems.

Oh, and Barca don't play at The Bernabeu.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=themn link=topic=45549.msg1342129#msg1342129 date=1307024132]
I bet Modo was pissed off when Ged recovered from his heart problems.

Oh, and Barca don't play at The Bernabeu.
[/quote]

He probably hadn't done much wrong by that time!!

 

[Modo]

[quote author=themn link=topic=45549.msg1342129#msg1342129 date=1307024132]
I bet Modo was pissed off when Ged recovered from his heart problems.

Oh, and Barca don't play at The Bernabeu.
[/quote]my bad camp nou. Dont joke about that im no sadist. Just not that fond of the man thats all.

 

[Pesam]

Modo, under Uncle Roy we became a joke club, Ged gave us back our dignity and put us back in the winners enclosure. Sure we weren't the most attractive team around but we were professional and feared throughout Europe.

We owe a huge debt to Ged & Rafa because they undid the damage done by Souness and Uncle Roy and by the time Rafa left we could rightly be considered one of Europe's very best teams.

We've fallen back a bit over the last 2 seasons but the "repair" job Kenny has on his hands is nothing compared to the complete overhaul Ged was faced with.

 

[Squiggles]

Houllier's a great man. This is a manager who risked his life for our club. How anyone cannot appreciate and respect that is beyond me

His last year, or possibly two, were pretty horrific - but he turned this club around. Sometimes I dread to think what would have happened if Houllier didn't come a long when he did. If we didn't shape up there and then we could have been in serious trouble, because the quality of the league improved a lot in a very short time.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Thank fuck the rest of you agree with me.

I'm also convinced the side Ged left us with is better than the one Rafa did.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=45549.msg1342199#msg1342199 date=1307030259]
Thank fuck the rest of you agree with me.

I'm also convinced the side Ged left us with is better than the one Rafa did.
[/quote]

oh no doubt

 

[Richey]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=45549.msg1342199#msg1342199 date=1307030259]
Thank fuck the rest of you agree with me.

I'm also convinced the side Ged left us with is better than the one Rafa did.
[/quote]

Yes he did. And as already mentioned on this thread he inherited a much worse one.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=45549.msg1342212#msg1342212 date=1307030898]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=45549.msg1342199#msg1342199 date=1307030259]
Thank fuck the rest of you agree with me.

I'm also convinced the side Ged left us with is better than the one Rafa did.
[/quote]

Yes he did. And as already mentioned on this thread he inherited a much worse one.

[/quote]

I'd like to see a comparison of the two cause I don't really believe that.
I'd also like to add that Rafa left us some exciting youth players as well.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=45549.msg1342213#msg1342213 date=1307031129]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=45549.msg1342212#msg1342212 date=1307030898]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=45549.msg1342199#msg1342199 date=1307030259]
Thank fuck the rest of you agree with me.

I'm also convinced the side Ged left us with is better than the one Rafa did.
[/quote]

Yes he did. And as already mentioned on this thread he inherited a much worse one.

[/quote]

I'd like to see a comparison of the two cause I don't really believe that.
I'd also like to add that Rafa left us some exciting youth players as well.
[/quote]

youth means nothing until they make an impact on the first team. We'll judge his legacy i na few years when we can see how they progressed

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=45549.msg1342190#msg1342190 date=1307029799]
Houllier's a great man. This is a manager who risked his life for our club. How anyone cannot appreciate and respect that is beyond me

His last year, or possibly two, were pretty horrific - but he turned this club around. Sometimes I dread to think what would have happened if Houllier didn't come a long when he did. If we didn't shape up there and then we could have been in serious trouble, because the quality of the league improved a lot in a very short time.

[/quote]

He didn't actually (the problem wasn't stress-related in any way) but I agree with the rest.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=45549.msg1342217#msg1342217 date=1307031420]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=45549.msg1342213#msg1342213 date=1307031129]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=45549.msg1342212#msg1342212 date=1307030898]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=45549.msg1342199#msg1342199 date=1307030259]
Thank fuck the rest of you agree with me.

I'm also convinced the side Ged left us with is better than the one Rafa did.
[/quote]

Yes he did. And as already mentioned on this thread he inherited a much worse one.

[/quote]

I'd like to see a comparison of the two cause I don't really believe that.
I'd also like to add that Rafa left us some exciting youth players as well.
[/quote]

youth means nothing until they make an impact on the first team. We'll judge his legacy i na few years when we can see how they progressed
[/quote]

Shelvey, Flanagan, Kelly, Robinson have all played for the first team. I'm not saying that they're established players but they've at least made past reserve football.
All English, 3 Scouse nothing to neglect IMO.

 

[vantage]

No-one is mentioning that Benitez had a net -ve spend in his last few transfer windows either.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=45549.msg1342220#msg1342220 date=1307031639]

Shelvey, Flanagan, Kelly, Robinson have all played for the first team. I'm not saying that they're established players but they've at least made past reserve football.
All English, 3 Scouse nothing to neglect IMO.
[/quote]

Would they have done had Benitez stayed? Did Houllier leave some players in the youth team who might have played more first team games and developed differently if they had been given a chance by Benitez?

None of these questions can be answered with any certainty by the way but are just for consideration and to show that the issue of youth players is a difficult one

 

[Fabio]

shelvey is hardly rafas youth policy though. he was brought in and dropped into the first team.

i'm waiting for robinson and flanagan to stamp themselves on the first team more

 

[themn]

I will never diss a Liverpool manager, apart from *You Know Who*.

I can't slag Souness, because he is one of our all-time legends on the field and he's admitted he made big mistakes and HE'S SOUNESS FFS !

Uncle Roy because his fault was maybe being too close to the players and unable to control some of the twattish behaviour.


He's still part of The Bootroom and I will extend the Wolverine claws in his defence.

 

[Modo]

2004 team Houllier left:

Goalkeepers:
Jerzy Dudek
Chris Kirkland

Defenders
Stephan Henchoz
Steve Finnan
Sami Hyypiä
Stephen Warnock
John Arne Riise
Djimi Traoré
Jamie Carragher

Midfielders
Harry Kewell
Steven Gerrard (captain)
Igor Biš?an
Vladimír Šmicer
Anthony Le Tallec
Salif Diao
Dietmar Hamann

Strikers
Florent Sinama-Pongolle
Milan Baroš
Djibril Cissé

2010 Team Rafa left

Goalkeepers

Pepé Reina
Péter Gulácsi

Defenders

Glen Johnson
Daniel Agger
Fábio Aurélio
Sotirios Kyrgiakos
Danny Wilson
Jamie Carragher
Martin Kelly
Martin Škrtel
John Flanagan
Jack Robinson

Midfielders
Javier Mascherano
Steven Gerrard
Daniel Pacheco
Maxi Rodríguez
Dirk Kuyt
Lucas
Jay Spearing
Jonjo Shelvey

Strikers
Fernando Torres
David Ngog
---

Looking at both teams I think Rafa left us with a better starting XI but worse squad.

 

[themn]

Are we REALLY going to do the Ged v Rafa thing ?

Afriggingain ?

 

[Modo]

[quote author=themn link=topic=45549.msg1342232#msg1342232 date=1307032919]
Are we REALLY going to do the Ged v Rafa thing ?

Afriggingain ?
[/quote]

I'm sorry for starting this mess.
If we're doing a Ged vs Rafa thing again, Rafa wins hands down again IMO.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Pesam link=topic=45549.msg1342178#msg1342178 date=1307028987]
Modo, under Uncle Roy we became a joke club, Ged gave us back our dignity and put us back in the winners enclosure. Sure we weren't the most attractive team around but we were professional and feared throughout Europe.

We owe a huge debt to Ged & Rafa because they undid the damage done by Souness and Uncle Roy and by the time Rafa left we could rightly be considered one of Europe's very best teams.

We've fallen back a bit over the last 2 seasons but the "repair" job Kenny has on his hands is nothing compared to the complete overhaul Ged was faced with.
[/quote]

2 years into his reign we could be considered one of Europe's best, at the end of it we were 7th best in England.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=45549.msg1342089#msg1342089 date=1307020167]
I often said Ged and Rafa's reigns were quite similar.
I wanted both to be sacked way before they were.

Having said that, I keep better and fond memories of Houiller's era. He was a gentleman unlike his machiavelian successor
[/quote]

That's pretty much my thoughts on it too.

 

[Judge Jules]

GH was no innocent at backroom manoeuvring either, the difference being that in his case it was directed at players rather than at administrators.

 

[Peatcheo]

Hughes has quit Fulham. Villa's new boss then!

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=45549.msg1342230#msg1342230 date=1307032667]
2004 team Houllier left:

Goalkeepers:
Jerzy Dudek
Chris Kirkland

Defenders
Stephan Henchoz
Steve Finnan
Sami Hyypiä
Stephen Warnock
John Arne Riise
Djimi Traoré
Jamie Carragher

Midfielders
Harry Kewell
Steven Gerrard (captain)
Igor Biš?an
Vladimír Šmicer
Anthony Le Tallec
Salif Diao
Dietmar Hamann

Strikers
Florent Sinama-Pongolle
Milan Baroš
Djibril Cissé

2010 Team Rafa left

Goalkeepers

Pepé Reina
Péter Gulácsi

Defenders

Glen Johnson
Daniel Agger
Fábio Aurélio
Sotirios Kyrgiakos
Danny Wilson
Jamie Carragher
Martin Kelly
Martin Škrtel
John Flanagan
Jack Robinson

Midfielders
Javier Mascherano
Steven Gerrard
Daniel Pacheco
Maxi Rodríguez
Dirk Kuyt
Lucas
Jay Spearing
Jonjo Shelvey

Strikers
Fernando Torres
David Ngog
---

Looking at both teams I think Rafa left us with a better starting XI but worse squad.

[/quote]

Hmmm. You know if you are including Mascherano in the squad Benitez left you really should be including Michael Owen in the squad Houllier left.

Also, you've missed out the talents that are Degen, Insua, Cavalieri and Riera from the squad Benitez left.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=45549.msg1342199#msg1342199 date=1307030259]
Thank fuck the rest of you agree with me.

I'm also convinced the side Ged left us with is better than the one Rafa did.
[/quote]

i definitely disagree with that. neither squad they left was up to scratch, but imo the one houllier left gets way too much respect, and i'll also always maintain that he had a lot of money to spend throughout his tenure, whereas at least part of the blame for the squad rafa left can be attributed to the the decrease in spending power in his last few transfer windows.

i also think he gets too much credit for 'saving' the club from the shambolic state evans left us in: imo that's more a reflection of evans' weakness than houllier's strength. any half decent manager would improve on that sorry state of affairs; i'm not saying it wasn't a job well done, just that it was hardly the herculean task a lot of people make it out to be.

i suppose overall i probably see him in the same way a lot of you seem to view benitez: a certain amount of respect and gratitude, but no real affection and, when it comes down to it, a negative impression more than a positive one - whether you like to admit or not. was he a success? i'm torn on that, really, but i suppose he deserves the benefit of the doubt because so much changed after his illness - i always had a problem with his tactics and style of football, but at the end of the day you can't argue with his results up to 2002.

so a success, just. but i think benitez was head and shoulders above him.