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Ged

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[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=45549.msg1342237#msg1342237 date=1307034546]
GH was no innocent at backroom manoeuvring either, the difference being that in his case it was directed at players rather than at administrators.
[/quote]

Ged was actually much worse at this, esecially when you consider he did it basically to entrench his position which wasnt really under serious threat. Rafa did the same politicking, but with a far greater cause to do so.

Uncanny, really.
 
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45549.msg1342261#msg1342261 date=1307037247]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=45549.msg1342237#msg1342237 date=1307034546]
GH was no innocent at backroom manoeuvring either, the difference being that in his case it was directed at players rather than at administrators.
[/quote]

Ged was actually much worse at this, esecially when you consider he did it basically to entrench his position which wasnt really under serious threat. Rafa did the same politicking, but with a far greater cause to do so.

Uncanny, really.
[/quote]

Maybe it was under threat but, unlike Benitez, he was actually good at the politicking so we never noticed?
 
Houllier told France Football: "I almost died. The doctors advised me to not resume before late in August or early in September. So it was a problem.

"The officials were also scared my comeback could be postponed again at that time. I can understand that. The risk exists.

"They are still traumatised with what happened last year, when Martin O'Neill left five days before the start of the season. So they didn't want such a possibility to happen again.

"I am on form again and I have recovered well. Last week, I went back to the training ground for the first time, and on a human level it is a real pain to have to make such a decision."

Houllier added: "Coaching is my job, my life, my passion.

"Maybe I will go on living in Birmingham for six months or one year, to have a good rest. I am in the countryside and very close to hospital and that is the perfect place."
Click to expand...
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=45549.msg1342237#msg1342237 date=1307034546]
GH was no innocent at backroom manoeuvring either, the difference being that in his case it was directed at players rather than at administrators.
[/quote]

And ex-players. He took all the criticism way too seriously.
He banned a few of them didn't he?
 
Tactically GED was in a much lower division than Rafa and accomplished far less. GED was a blagger, Rafa was the real McCoy. Houllier was ferociously machavellian. Rafa was too, but he had an excuse.

I see houllier as great progress, and Rafa built on that. I can only remember us as barely qualifying fir the CL and going into games in the CL, not knowing how they would go under GED . under Rafa CL qualification was a foregone conclusion bar one year for reasons explained. Rafa gave us our pedigree back. But I still see GED as an important milestone. I just don't rate him as a manager. He stuck with shit players too long, to prove himself right, whereas Rafa would jettison.

Anyway, we'll all not agree on this..
 
[quote author=localny link=topic=45549.msg1343007#msg1343007 date=1307160921]
Tactically GED was in a much lower division than Rafa and accomplished far less. GED was a blagger, Rafa was the real McCoy. Houllier was ferociously machavellian. Rafa was too, but he had an excuse.

I see houllier as great progress, and Rafa built on that. I can only remember us as barely qualifying fir the CL and going into games in the CL, not knowing how they would go under GED . under Rafa CL qualification was a foregone conclusion bar one year for reasons explained. Rafa gave us our pedigree back. But I still see GED as an important milestone. I just don't rate him as a manager. He stuck with shit players too long, to prove himself right, whereas Rafa would jettison.

Anyway, we'll all not agree on this..
[/quote]
Nicely put, top post.
 
"Ged was a blagger"

090703-houllier_10-mosaic.jpg


That's almost as idiotic as praising a manager for buying shit players and then getting rid of them quickly. What a load of shit.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=45549.msg1343060#msg1343060 date=1307182747]
"Ged was a blagger"

090703-houllier_10-mosaic.jpg


That's almost as idiotic as praising a manager for buying shit players and then getting rid of them quickly. What a load of shit.
[/quote]

Agree 100%
 
[quote author=localny link=topic=45549.msg1343007#msg1343007 date=1307160921]
Tactically GED was in a much lower division than Rafa and accomplished far less. GED was a blagger, Rafa was the real McCoy. Houllier was ferociously machavellian. Rafa was too, but he had an excuse.

I see houllier as great progress, and Rafa built on that. I can only remember us as barely qualifying fir the CL and going into games in the CL, not knowing how they would go under GED . under Rafa CL qualification was a foregone conclusion bar one year for reasons explained. Rafa gave us our pedigree back. But I still see GED as an important milestone. I just don't rate him as a manager. He stuck with shit players too long, to prove himself right, whereas Rafa would jettison.

Anyway, we'll all not agree on this..
[/quote]

Not fair really. The club was in more of a state when Houllier took over. Benitez inherited a team that was in the CL.

In the 90s we were utterly woeful in Europe and it was Houllier who got us back competing there. Okay, it was just the UEFA Cup but that was the stage we were at by then.

In terms of qualifying, if you take the years when Houllier was in sole charge then if the current rules had existed we would actually have qualified all but one year - it used to be top 3 only early on.

As you say, we won't all agree on it though. I think Houllier gets a hard time from some, but others probably think Benitez gets a hard time from some.
 
They both get a hard time, to be honest...and I've been as bad as some.

Being critical of mistakes made doesnt denigrate the good things both men did.
 
[quote author=Modo link=topic=45549.msg1342230#msg1342230 date=1307032667]
2004 team Houllier left:

Goalkeepers:
Jerzy Dudek <<<<< Pepe Reina
Chris Kirkland >>>>> Péter Gulácsi

Hands down Rafa's, even though I loved Jerzy

Defenders
Stephan Henchoz >>>>> Danny Agger (mainly based on the fact he weren't fucked all the time)
Steve Finnan >>>>> Glen Johnson
Sami Hyypiä = Jamie Carragher
Stephen Warnock >>>>> John Flanagan
John Arne Riise >>>>> Fabio Aurelio
Djimi Traoré <<<<< Martin Kelly
Jamie Carragher >>>>> Martin Skrtel

Soto, Wilson and Robinson give Rafa's team more depth, but as far as first team goes Ged's was better)

Midfielders
Harry Kewell <<<<< Maxi Rodriguez (I think Kewell was probably the better player, but he was always broken)
Steven Gerrard (captain) = Steven Gerrard
Igor Biš?an = Jay Spearing
Vladimír Šmicer <<<<< Dirk Kuyt
Anthony Le Tallec = Dani Pacheco
Salif Diao <<<<< Jonjo Shelvey
Dietmar Hamann >>>>> Lucas

Rafa's edges it, but Mascher doesn't count

Strikers
Florent Sinama-Pongolle
Milan Baroš >>>>> David Ngog
Djibril Cissé <<<<< Fernando Torres

Obviously Torres was better than Djibs, but by the time Rafa left he was well into his sulky less productive phase, and the lack of options left to us was criminal

Looking at both teams I think Rafa left us with a better starting XI but worse squad.

[/quote]

I don't know if I agree. On paper there might be some argument for it, but that doesn't always tell the whole story - Ged left us with one of the meanest defences in the league, and the midfield partnership of Didi and Stevie was *solid* - unsurprisingly it was the wings that were letting us down - but then given that Cisse got shifted out wide and did a pretty good job of scoring goals from out there, there's an argument that says him (and Pongolle fror that matter) should be counted as wingers. Given that Gerrard played a fair bit out wide as well I suppose he could be counted out there with a CM pairing of Biscan and Hamaan.

I suppose what you need to look at is not each individual, but the some of their parts - which was the better team?

For my money the defence was better under Ged - perhaps not such a brilliant keeper, but as a unit far less frail.

Midfield was pretty dysfunctional under both - if we say everyone fit and include Cisse as an erstwhile RW then I think it's a tough call. This is the team that Rafa left remember - not the one that Kenny got working. On paper I would say Rafa's edges it, but I think the reality was that Ged's worked better.

Frontline was obviously Rafa's. A sulky Torres is still better than a Baros.

Overall, I think Ged's is probably the better team, taken as a whole rather than the sum of its parts
 
Both were great mean. Both loved our club and would give an arm and a leg to see us win the league. They still do. Both had flaws. Unfortunately the financial situation at the club and the management structure was such that every flaw they had in the transfer market was significantly magnified. There was no margin for error.

The stress of expectations at LFC got to them. No shame in that. Look at Rafa in Valencia and Rafa after managing five years of Liverpool. The way he was putting on weight and looking stressed, if he continued, I am sure he would have had a major heart disease.

They both gave us some wonderful memories and gave almost their everything to see us succeed. They embraced what the club, city, fans was all about. No point in comparing them.

In the final year when they were falling short of the weight of expectations they cracked. No shame in that. In the next 50 years,there will be LFC managers who will similarly crack under the pressure of managing LFC.
 
[quote author=peekay link=topic=45549.msg1343093#msg1343093 date=1307192627]
Both were great mean. Both loved our club and would give an arm and a leg to see us win the league. They still do. Both had flaws. Unfortunately the financial situation at the club and the management structure was such that every flaw they had in the transfer market was significantly magnified. There was no margin for error.

The stress of expectations at LFC got to them. No shame in that. Look at Rafa in Valencia and Rafa after managing five years of Liverpool. The way he was putting on weight and looking stressed, if he continued, I am sure he would have had a major heart disease.

They both gave us some wonderful memories and gave almost their everything to see us succeed. They embraced what the club, city, fans was all about. No point in comparing them.

In the final year when they were falling short of the weight of expectations they cracked. No shame in that. In the next 50 years,there will be LFC managers who will similarly crack under the pressure of managing LFC.
[/quote]


This.
 
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45549.msg1343053#msg1343053 date=1307180431]
Not really, but it's not surprising you both think that.
[/quote]

Captain condescensioooooooonnnnn
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=45549.msg1343060#msg1343060 date=1307182747]
"Ged was a blagger"

090703-houllier_10-mosaic.jpg


That's almost as idiotic as praising a manager for buying shit players and then getting rid of them quickly. What a load of shit.
[/quote]

What are you saying squiggles? When you're finished flaming and getting all emotional about GED Surely you agree houllier would stick with dross because he signed them. If Rafa signed them, and it didn't work out, well *usually* they'd be gone quicker. I'm coming from the premise that every manager signs crap. Guaranteed. Can't get it all right.
 
Not fair really. The club was in more of a state when Houllier took over. Benitez inherited a team that was in the CL.

In the 90s we were utterly woeful in Europe and it was Houllier who got us back competing there. Okay, it was just the UEFA Cup but that was the stage we were at by then.

In terms of qualifying, if you take the years when Houllier was in sole charge then if the current rules had existed we would actually have qualified all but one year - it used to be top 3 only early on.

As you say, we won't all agree on it though. I think Houllier gets a hard time from some, but others probably think Benitez gets a hard time from some.



Yeah fair point that houllier had more to do. I just don't see him winning la liga or taking a teAm past the level we were at. I do see him as a lesser manager but the taking credit for Istanbul and the silly pr antics turned me off.
 
I think the idea of a manager moving players on quickly if they aren't working out can be a positive thing, but if it is done every single year it is less so, and you have to ask why it has to be done every single year!!

Houllier didn't always hang on to signings for too long. He got rid of Zeige pretty quickly, and Camara, Song, Barmby and Westerveld didn't last very long after things started going wrong for them.
I think its another indication of how Houllier's approach changed for the worse in the second part of his time with us, possibly because he was increasingly feeling the pressure and didn't want to have to admit to making poor decisions.
 
Zeige did well for a while but his sin was speaking out in ze media right?

Camara I loved in the way you loved Garcia

Barmby? Middle roAd signing..

Song went bad. Sander - nuff said.
 
[quote author=localny link=topic=45549.msg1343298#msg1343298 date=1307228517]
Zeige did well for a while but his sin was speaking out in ze media right?

Camara I loved in the way you loved Garcia

Barmby? Middle roAd signing..

Song went bad. Sander - nuff said.

[/quote]

And on the issue of whether or not Houllier got rid of them quickly?
 
[quote author=localny link=topic=45549.msg1343257#msg1343257 date=1307216836]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45549.msg1343053#msg1343053 date=1307180431]
Not really, but it's not surprising you both think that.
[/quote]

Captain condescensioooooooonnnnn
[/quote]

No, just thought it was a bad post. I think you severely understate the job Houillier had to do, and that you compensate for that by over-embellishing Rafa's successes and glossing over his failures.
 
I thought Houllier was a load of bollocks and he did my head in. It's just an opinion kids, no need to get in a mood at me about it.
 
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45549.msg1343303#msg1343303 date=1307230860]
[quote author=localny link=topic=45549.msg1343257#msg1343257 date=1307216836]
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45549.msg1343053#msg1343053 date=1307180431]
Not really, but it's not surprising you both think that.
[/quote]

Captain condescensioooooooonnnnn
[/quote]
No, just thought it was a bad post. I think you severely understate the job Houillier had to do, and that you compensate for that by over-embellishing Rafa's successes and glossing over his failures.

[/quote]

Houllier - you have a point and I do actually under rate his rebuilding job. Thinking about it, it was a big modernization project and he did it well. But I just wouldn't feel as confident going into big games with him as much as I would Rafa. But I do take your point on board.

As for Rafa I am sure I bore people to tears but I think people forget how far forward he pulled us. I really can't respect people (not you FYI ) who would jump for joy at so many fantastic occasions from 2004/09- and now turn the knife in him.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=45549.msg1343299#msg1343299 date=1307229698]
[quote author=localny link=topic=45549.msg1343298#msg1343298 date=1307228517]
Zeige did well for a while but his sin was speaking out in ze media right?

Camara I loved in the way you loved Garcia

Barmby? Middle roAd signing..

Song went bad. Sander - nuff said.

[/quote]

Richey I think I should probably do a more comprehensive list, to make sure my primal statement is backed up by fact. But with not much time on my hands, let me say this for now 🙂. Ziege I thought was a good player, thought he could have stayed? Or had he gone bad? Camara - got rid in time. Barmby - about time. Sander - too long? Let me get a more exhaustive list - smicer will lead it 😉.

And on the issue of whether or not Houllier got rid of them quickly?
[/quote]
 
Like I said I don't think I'm alone...

[flash=400,300]http://www.youtube.com/v/Gk3htxfo7Qc&feature=player_embedded[/flash]
EDIT sorry in two minds
 
[quote author=Modo link=topic=45549.msg1343523#msg1343523 date=1307291771]
Like I said I don't think I'm not alone...

[/quote]

Huh?
 
There's not been too many books come out yet about the houllier or Benitez dressing rooms is there? A few snippets from fowler and gerrard?
 
[quote author=peekay link=topic=45549.msg1343093#msg1343093 date=1307192627]
Both were great mean. Both loved our club and would give an arm and a leg to see us win the league. They still do. Both had flaws. Unfortunately the financial situation at the club and the management structure was such that every flaw they had in the transfer market was significantly magnified. There was no margin for error.

The stress of expectations at LFC got to them. No shame in that. Look at Rafa in Valencia and Rafa after managing five years of Liverpool. The way he was putting on weight and looking stressed, if he continued, I am sure he would have had a major heart disease.

They both gave us some wonderful memories and gave almost their everything to see us succeed. They embraced what the club, city, fans was all about. No point in comparing them.

In the final year when they were falling short of the weight of expectations they cracked. No shame in that. In the next 50 years,there will be LFC managers who will similarly crack under the pressure of managing LFC.
[/quote]

Agreed, though Rafa's implosion was also assisted by external forces. I believe they both had their heart in the right place, and while I can accept people not particularly rating either of them, I do chafe somewhat at people just thinking either was a cunt.
 
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